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Author Topic: Witcher 3: Wild Hunt  (Read 40755 times)
Paelos
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Reply #35 on: February 13, 2013, 12:22:58 PM

I'm enjoying how people are saying the combat at higher levels isn't bad because it can be cheesed by potions or shield rolling.

For one, potions aren't combat. It's supposed to be an outside mini-game of crafting that makes things easier. It has nothing to do with the actual combat play.

For the second part, Quen and roll isn't really combat either. You're flailing about like an idiot most of the time. The reason you have to do that as a workaround is because when you are faced with groups, the animations lock you into actions only to get faceraped by other people. So instead of actual attack and defense, it's stop drop and roll like you're constantly on fire. This technique didn't really exist at all in the other game because you had a group fighting style that actually worked.

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rk47
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Reply #36 on: February 13, 2013, 01:19:14 PM

Yrden and Aard is your crowd control signs that can make grps easier to handle.
There's also the magic tree that can make a lot of combat trivial by just spamming it at full power, triggering a killing blow when it causes a critical hit.
I haven't revisited TW2 of late, but the combat is more fun than TW1, most definitely.

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Reply #37 on: February 13, 2013, 01:45:25 PM

For the second part, Quen and roll isn't really combat either. You're flailing about like an idiot most of the time. The reason you have to do that as a workaround is because when you are faced with groups, the animations lock you into actions only to get faceraped by other people. So instead of actual attack and defense, it's stop drop and roll like you're constantly on fire. This technique didn't really exist at all in the other game because you had a group fighting style that actually worked.

I figure there was some kind of principle of realism at stake in the combat design of TW2, like they just couldn't accept things looking wrong even if it made the game feel more responsive.  The system desperately needs more animation cancelling and less actions which make you temporarily unable to control your movement.  It's ironic because the consequence of that design was fights in which you roll around like a loon.
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Reply #38 on: February 13, 2013, 02:17:42 PM

For one, potions aren't combat. It's supposed to be an outside mini-game of crafting that makes things easier. It has nothing to do with the actual combat play.

i agree , this is why i found ME2 better than ME3. I get to do planetary exploration and stuff, crafting my gear, to make combat easier, without getting into combat while having combat advantages. I wish Witcher 3 will tack that in, chop some wood or mine ores to craft silver blades.

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Reply #39 on: February 13, 2013, 02:28:14 PM

In all seriousness, TWitcher 2 combat was pretty bad, it just wasn't difficult. However, I'd take it any day over cakewalk 3PS rivals or the twitch rhythm game that was TWitcher 1 combat.

Ideally they'd either make it with proper RPG combat, or (more likely) accept that they're making a CYOA action game and design a combat system that can actually compete with the better games in that genre.
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Reply #40 on: February 13, 2013, 02:48:50 PM

edit:

*question redacted*  Forget I asked.  Still wigging me out, however.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 03:02:21 PM by Rasix »

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Reply #41 on: February 13, 2013, 03:06:36 PM

In all seriousness, TWitcher 2 combat was pretty bad, it just wasn't difficult. However, I'd take it any day over cakewalk 3PS rivals or the twitch rhythm game that was TWitcher 1 combat.

Ideally they'd either make it with proper RPG combat, or (more likely) accept that they're making a CYOA action game and design a combat system that can actually compete with the better games in that genre.
Stop saying TWitcher. Now.
BLUND
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Reply #42 on: February 13, 2013, 03:35:38 PM

In all seriousness, TWitcher 2 combat was pretty bad, it just wasn't difficult. However, I'd take it any day over cakewalk 3PS rivals or the twitch rhythm game that was TWitcher 1 combat.

Ideally they'd either make it with proper RPG combat, or (more likely) accept that they're making a CYOA action game and design a combat system that can actually compete with the better games in that genre.
Stop saying TWitcher. Now.

TWitch--



...ok.

Edit: I tend to use it it mainly because TW or TW2 could be confused with Two Worlds/Two Worlds II, and TheW2 just looks ridiculous. That and to an extent the twitchiness of the first game's combat. Not really meant to be a 'thing'.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 04:00:36 PM by BLUND »
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Reply #43 on: February 13, 2013, 03:42:39 PM

I think it's supposed to be an rpgcodex thing. It's a magical place. (not really)

Anyway, TW3 is firmly in wait-and-see territory for me -- I'm still feeling a bit burned about my TW2 preorder. TW1 was a mostly enjoyable romp minus the combat and much of the dialog, but TW2 somehow managed to make both of those tihngs worse. Even if you ignore the QTEs, it wasn't engaging... or it may be that I just hate actiony combat in my RPGs, who knows!

Paelos
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Reply #44 on: February 13, 2013, 05:19:38 PM

If I know the combat is terrible and frustrating, in all likelihood I'm cranking the game down to easy just so I can scratch it off my list.

There have been a few times when this didn't even work and I hated the game too much. Two Worlds comes to mind and that JRPG about changing into dragons. Awful. Just awful.

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Rasix
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Reply #45 on: February 13, 2013, 05:25:38 PM

If I know the combat is terrible and frustrating, in all likelihood I'm cranking the game down to easy just so I can scratch it off my list.

There have been a few times when this didn't even work and I hated the game too much. Two Worlds comes to mind and that JRPG about changing into dragons. Awful. Just awful.

Breath of Fire series?  I think I played one of those on the SNES.

Uggg, Two Worlds 2.   Intro was so bad I just couldn't go any further. 

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Reply #46 on: February 13, 2013, 05:39:53 PM

I was thinking Divinity 2: Ego Draconis.

On a side, I loved Breath of Fire Love Letters
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Reply #47 on: February 13, 2013, 05:48:46 PM

If I know the combat is terrible and frustrating, in all likelihood I'm cranking the game down to easy just so I can scratch it off my list.

There have been a few times when this didn't even work and I hated the game too much. Two Worlds comes to mind and that JRPG about changing into dragons. Awful. Just awful.

You exactly described Witcher 2 for me, but I found the story elements completely awful as well (as far as I played before giving up on it), which I realize puts me in a minority around here*. I seem to recall hating the inventory system, really just the interface in general as well.

The Pool of Radiance that formatted your hard drive also comes to mind, but the all-time classic "too shitty to finish" for me is Lionheart. Still makes me kind of angry. Oh and I guess there are the Sky games, of which I only tried to play Risen.

Most of my other examples of just knocking the game board over and walking away are MMOs I think.

(*If I wanted fake tits, broken English, and unsatisfying options, I'd go to a strip club heyooo)

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Paelos
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Reply #48 on: February 13, 2013, 06:28:00 PM

I was thinking Divinity 2: Ego Draconis.

Yeah it was Divinity 2, I couldn't remember the name. God I hated that game.

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Rasix
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Reply #49 on: February 13, 2013, 06:55:37 PM

Ohhh, that's Eurojank not a JRPG.

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Reply #50 on: February 13, 2013, 07:35:37 PM








I literally finished watching that episode of Sherlock before browsing the forums, I lol'd hard.

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Paelos
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Reply #51 on: February 13, 2013, 08:05:44 PM

Ohhh, that's Eurojank not a JRPG.

Ah, very good. I get my regional crap confused.

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Reply #52 on: February 13, 2013, 08:49:48 PM

You can see the change in Witcher combat within the first set of DLC. Within the Witcher if you got your timing right you could just click through enemies up close and cut them down in barrage of blows.

The DLC changed things in those missions so that hitting enemies didn't interrupt them as much, so you had to roll away / dodge or you'd get slaughtered.

And then The Witcher 2, with its attack and dodge approach, was a more fleshed out approach to that mechanic.

Bombs help if you are having group issues. Traps seem fairly useless though IMO.

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Reply #53 on: February 13, 2013, 09:06:05 PM

You can see the change in Witcher combat within the first set of DLC. Within the Witcher if you got your timing right you could just click through enemies up close and cut them down in barrage of blows.

The DLC changed things in those missions so that hitting enemies didn't interrupt them as much, so you had to roll away / dodge or you'd get slaughtered.

And then The Witcher 2, with its attack and dodge approach, was a more fleshed out approach to that mechanic.

Bombs help if you are having group issues. Traps seem fairly useless though IMO.

I trapped myself once, too. This game's crazy on the difficulty if you didn't expect it.  why so serious?

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Reply #54 on: February 14, 2013, 02:20:02 AM

The magic trap (Yrden?) is the only one worth using. Except for the monster trap in Chapter 1 that makes the boss fight slightly easier.

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Reply #55 on: February 14, 2013, 09:35:24 AM

cheesed by potions

Um, potions are part of the combat system. Thorough dialog  and side quests you can figure out what potions you may need to down before a fight. This not only goes for bosses, but other creatures that you build a profile of. Its completely in the lore, and potions and preparations are part of combat.

Its all right in the the job description of a Witcher.

I'm currently playing Dark souls, and find it funny that games combat is praised, yet its nearly identical ( Melee ) to that of the Witcher, it just lacks the prep part.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 09:42:45 AM by Mrbloodworth »

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Paelos
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Reply #56 on: February 14, 2013, 10:22:21 AM

Brewing potions isn't combat, or part of the combat mechanics. You're reaching.

It's part of the game, and it's part of the design intent, but it's not at all about the combat itself.

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Reply #57 on: February 14, 2013, 10:23:39 AM

You're reaching.

Nope.

You going up against humans? Pop some + damage Humans, + swords , use fire bombs bla bla bla.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 10:26:34 AM by Mrbloodworth »

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Paelos
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Reply #58 on: February 14, 2013, 10:27:05 AM



We're talking about potion prep. Not fighting. Not combat. Potion prep.

Prep.

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Reply #59 on: February 14, 2013, 10:28:55 AM

That you seemingly ignore.

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Reply #60 on: February 14, 2013, 10:29:47 AM

Right, cause you never prep in good rpg's....oh wait.

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Reply #61 on: February 14, 2013, 10:33:11 AM

Right, cause you never prep in good rpg's....oh wait.

ITS NOT PART OF COMBAT!  rolleyes

Like i said, Its right in the job description of a witcher.

What is a Witcher

But it should be ignored and is "cheesy"?  Ohhhhh, I see.

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Paelos
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Reply #62 on: February 14, 2013, 10:33:29 AM

Guys, prep has nothing to do with the ACTUAL FAILINGS OF THE COMBAT MECHANICS.

Good grief, you're arguing different things. Just because you can make the combat easier with prep doesn't mean the combat itself isn't flawed.

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Reply #63 on: February 14, 2013, 10:39:42 AM

Guys, prep has nothing to do with the ACTUAL FAILINGS OF THE COMBAT MECHANICS.

Good grief, you're arguing different things. Just because you can make the combat easier with prep doesn't mean the combat itself isn't flawed.

Yes I agree that the beginning of the game is crappy because of the combat tying your hands with no spells or potions and a lot of people can't get past that, which is a shame.

However to say prep isn't part of combat is ridiculous since in just about every rpg out there you are prepping via items, spells, potions or what have you before you even get into a fight.  

Enchant your weapon in skyrim? Prep!
Combine a Red and Green herb in resident evil? Prep!
Catch a fairy in a bottle in zelda? Prep!

Saying witcher combat post intro sucks because you are only using your sword is counter to the strategy involved in nearly every action/rpg ever.

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Paelos
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Reply #64 on: February 14, 2013, 10:42:43 AM

That's not what I said though. I said that just because you can use potions or roll around like a jackass to successfully navigate the combat problems, that doesn't mean the combat is good or even acceptable to higher levels.

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Reply #65 on: February 14, 2013, 10:49:30 AM

That's not what I said though. I said that just because you can use potions or roll around like a jackass to successfully navigate the combat problems, that doesn't mean the combat is good or even acceptable to higher levels.

Rolling is not the only way to avoid attacks, even with multiple targets. Also, 88% score on metacritic, pre-fixes. Those of you treating this title as some sort of abysmal failure are the ones reaching. Including when you are criticizing those who enjoyed the title as if we are some tiny minority of cave dwellers.

Just because you can make the combat easier with prep doesn't mean the combat itself isn't flawed.

Loading my gun in Planetside makes combat easier, so obviously its flawed.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 10:53:56 AM by Mrbloodworth »

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Reply #66 on: February 14, 2013, 01:38:47 PM

 Facepalm

You aren't understanding what he is saying. You could kill everything in one hit with the same mechanics that the game uses and it wouldn't change the fact that he doesn't like the mechanics. It has literally nothing to do with prep or no prep or how easy or hard it is.

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Paelos
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Reply #67 on: February 14, 2013, 01:49:05 PM

Don't even bother. He's already mentioned Metacritic scores.

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Reply #68 on: February 14, 2013, 04:19:11 PM

I think the point we are talking past is that prep in all games is very much part of the mechanics. You can go entire action/rpg games without ever upgrading your weapons/armor/gear and then complain you are dying in one hit and that it takes forever to kill enemies.  That would be your choice but you'd also be "doing it wrong" to intentionally handicap yourself in that way.

Now maybe upgrading is a pain in the ass, or not fun but that's also a separate issue.  Witcher was not meant to be played without spells or potions and to it's detriment they took away those tools in the beginning of the second game, thereby making you not only feel that pure swordplay was the intended game but also that it was not fun(which it was not)

Yes I know Zelda/Megaman and lots of other games are fun BEFORE any upgrades and that issue is completely on witcher, but after a certain point in all games you should be upgrading your shit, usually though you simply are not given a choice in the matter.

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Paelos
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Reply #69 on: February 14, 2013, 04:37:13 PM

Honestly, I don't know how to make it any clearer. There are all sorts of different mechanics in a game. Character statistics, items, economy, combat, story, etc.

These mechanics, while linked under the same game banner, can be judged on completely separate areas. I'm judging the combat mechanics compared to other games within the genre.

And instead we're getting into how the linkage between other mechanics of the game somehow make this irrelevent? No, it's a separate point.

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