Camelot Unchained

[KallDrexx]

MJ really doesn't have to do much to have a niche success on his hands.  WAR core concepts + less PvE + better balance + 3rd faction + less CC.  I think that would be enough to have a 50-100k subscriber base for at least 6 months. If he's expecting much more than that, he's in a delusional state beyond recovery.

That's a lot easier said than done.  The fact is that for a subscription game you need longevity and stickyness, which is hard in a pvp-only game.  Once population starts going down, it goes down fast because in a pvp-only game you are only going to have fun if you have a lot of players to play with, and it becomes a snowball effect.

Even in a non-sub game, you need to carefully balance the play 2 win effect against the general game design, and to keep players wanting to log in and play.

[Nebu]

Very true.  MMO gamers want a progression pathway.  It's very difficult to give them that while also disenfranchising new players that have to face an ever increasing power creep. 

Can MJ develop a shallow power curve that offers lateral advancement that doesn't kill PvP balance?  I see no evidence that he can.

[Paelos]

If they do a lower budget game with a sub that's $5 a month instead of the dinosaur $14 a month, I think they will draw much more support.

200,000 if you can sell an upfront sub for a year at $60 to 1/4, a 6 month at $36 to half, and the rest trickle at $7 per month for 3 months before making decisions. That's $7,650,000 in revenue for the year. That's opposed to a $14 sub which people may play wait and see month to month for 100,000 users which is only $4,200,000 for 3 months before people start making decisions.

I think it's easier to sell a cheaper sub for longer time than it is to get people to stomach the WoW sub price for not-WoW.

[Merusk]

Wait.. he's going with a sub model in 2013?

 

Best of luck.

[satael]

Wait.. he's going with a sub model in 2013?

 

Best of luck.

No, he's going with sub model in 2015 

[Lantyssa]

If they do a lower budget game with a sub that's $5 a month instead of the dinosaur $14 a month, I think they will draw much more support.

Free Realms was the only game to go with a lower sub though.  I seriously doubt he's thinking less than $12.95 a month.

[Paelos]

Then he will fail, pure and simple.

[Rasix]

Then he will fail, pure and simple.

Much better.

No one is going to pay a sub fee for this.  I don't care how small. 

[Nebu]

No one is going to pay a sub fee for this.  I don't care how small. 

*cough*

Don't hate me because I'm gullible.

[Rasix]

My "no one" always leaves out the crazies.  The die hard RVR/PVP folk and "must play every shitbag MMO" folk will buy this even if Jacobs never produces a working build.   We have a lot of category 2 here.  Hasn't the novelty worn off yet?

Edit: I know this is your holy grail and the sequel to that game that's  been poisoning your perception of gaming for more than a decade.  But this.. this thing has no chance of being good.  Literally zero.  You can't make this kind of game for chump change.  And if you could, would you trust the old guard to do so?   

[Paelos]

I wouldn't trust MJ to pick up trash on the street. He'd dump the recycled items on your lawn and claim it's a feature.

[HaemishM]

Wait.. he's going with a sub model in 2013?

 

Best of luck.

QFFT. Kickstarting a low-budget SUBSCRIPTION game? Oh and the sub game has NO PVE (i.e. stickiness that doesn't require other players)? Good luck with that.

[Nebu]

Hasn't the novelty worn off yet?

It's not about novelty.  It's about trying things until a pvp MMO comes out that's actually worth a shit.  WAR was as close as I've found for the RvR itch that I want scratched.  Enjoyed Rift and SWTOR for Battleground pvp even with their poor balance.  For fuck's sake, I've been playing a 10 year old DAoC free shard lately because there isn't another MMO RvR alternative that I like.  

I think this project is likely to be a steaming pile of crap.  I'll still try it and make my judgement then... if it ever becomes more than vaporware.   When you're competing with nothing, the bar is set pretty low.

[Rasix]

For fuck's sake, I've been playing a 10 year old DAoC free shard lately because there isn't another MMO RvR alternative that I like.  

I'd be a little less disappointed if you said you've been on heroin/paint/glue/meth/cat urine/bath salts lately.  That aint right.  

A decent PVP MMO in the spirit that you're looking for isn't going to come out until the entire industry collapses upon itself, and we have to repopulate the dead wasteland that gaming has become.   Or maybe it will.. and then my head will explode.

edit:  But yah.. I'll peace out until there's actually some in game footage of this.  I'll leave you to your dreams. 

[Ingmar]

I'm fine with backing game Kickstarters when the Kickstarter is paying for the whole game. You have to be beyond foolish to back one that will just make a tech demo to go and try to sell to real investors. Pissing money away, just utterly bad.

[tazelbain]

I might be willing to pitch in for one that will release the source and media.  If you going to ask the crowd for funding then the results should belong to the crowd.

[Falconeer]

I don't get it.

When I say I miss pre-Trammel UO, my favourite PvP ever, what I am talking about is a certain feeling of impending doom that was with my with every step. The fight itself was poor, but the kind of feelings coming from that experience has been only repeated in EVE, and it's not your traditional fantasy MMORPG so when I say that I miss that it's pretty clear what I am actually missing, and how it is completely absent from any game on the market at the moment.

When I say I miss Shadowbane PvP, I am talking about a nation-based PvP where territorial control, expansion, defense on a vast scale was more important than the single fight, since few things were more satisfying than seeing the actual map of the world changing based on your victories or defeats. Again, nothing even remotely similar seems to be available on the market at the moment.

When you say that you miss DAoC PvP and you've been waiting for such an experience for ten years, what exactly are you talking about? What game mode would I be playing if I entered your DAoC free shard today that I can't find in other games? As usual, it's a serious question not a rethorical one nor it is intended to make fun of you.

[Merusk]

Nebu despises CC and wants zerg-ganking.

That's what I've gotten out of the last 3-4 years of his DAOC-pining monologues.

[Sjofn]

But yeah, Darkness Falls was fun because of the other players fooling around, and the one bugged mob with no leash range that would randomly flatten the area. It wasn't fun because of the pve.

ukobat

[Hoax]

I'm not convinced that DAOC's RvR was a considerable leap more epic than Vanilla WoW pre honor world pvp, Lineage 2's siege stuff (I only know rumors of this thanks to dat grind) and I'm pretty sure Aion tried very hard to rip off RvR and the reality is RvR isn't that special. If I wanted to pretend some future game was going to get it all right I'd certainly peg my hopes on something like Arche Age before anything touched by Jacob's taint. To me this sounds too much like first MMO bias but its coming from players who I've gotta believe played games before DAOC surely?

I too would like to hear Falc's question answered.

Meanwhile WildStar and FireFall both have npc factions you join and pvp for don't they?

[Ingmar]

Nebu despises CC

That can't be it, DAOC had the most oppressive CC of any game I've ever played.

Speaking for myself, the appeal of DAOC is a bunch of people with a reason to fight together fighting over control of permanent map features, with persistent rivalries and the opportunity to make a name for yourself and recognize and hate names on the other side. Nebu was an 8v8er so he probably doesn't care about the important part (the keep fighting/control) though. 

[Lantyssa]

I'm going to start Kickstarting games that Nebu likes.  I won't advertise them to anyone else.  He can just keep throwing money at me in the hopes his holy grail comes along.

[Rasix]

I too would like to hear Falc's question answered.

Best I can think of is that DAoC had something that very early UO had:  the ability for a small coordinated group to obliterate a much larger force.   Both did it in horrible ways that we will hopefully never see again. RIP genre infancy.

[Sjofn]

For me, there are a few things I miss about DAoC's RvR, but I know at least one of those things is never coming back. One of the things I miss is the sense of community we had. I was a Mid, goddammit, and that was my tribe. Albs were zerging tards, Hibs were relic-enabled jerks, and we were the SCRAPPY UNDERDOGS. I miss recognising names that were scrolling by in the death spam as I ran a group out to a keep, and making a mental note to find Nevermore's body to lay down an asshat. I miss rushing to get the deathblow on someone so everyone in the area would see "Fordel was just killed by Sjofn!" (that never actually happened that I recall, alas). I miss Kildorn killing this poor other skald who happened to have her armor dyed like mine 50 times while trying to find ME to kill. I miss "knowing," however superficially, my enemies as well as my allies.

That can't happen again, though, not with the sort of critical mass these games need. And I'm mostly okay with that, really.

The other shit I miss are things like an even playing field gear-wise (I am one of those people who do NOT like the god awful gear progression in PvP) and having a shared goal for everyone on my team that lasts beyond "winning this match." Mostly the gear thing, though. I fucking hate gear progression in PvP. If I get run over, I want it to be because I suck, not because I suck AND my gear is two tiers behind whoever just splattered me.

And deathspam. I really miss deathspam for some stupid reason. Even the spam that told me that "Ingmar was just killed by a hill cat!" was awesome.

[Rasix]

Wait, what?  Didn't you have to level your goddamn pants in DAOC?  I remember my friend telling me on the phone how he finally max leveled his dumb flail and was killing entire groups of people by himself with a heal bot hidden in a tower.

[Merusk]

Nebu despises CC

That can't be it, DAOC had the most oppressive CC of any game I've ever played.

See, that's what I remember. They had an EQ-style enchanter, and warden bubble-chants/ stuns, etc.  But any time you talk to Nebu it's the first thing he brings up.  His hate of CC and counters to it.

[Sjofn]

Wait, what?  Didn't you have to level your goddamn pants in DAOC?

That came in an expansion, and that is when pretty much everyone agrees DAOC was ruined forever.

[Ingmar]

Also Lum did it.

[Scold]

I still don't understand why anyone pines for DAoC. That game was such an also-ran in pretty much every respect.

[Soln]

I too sort of miss the community and sense of risk in RvR.   I'm not interested in that anymore, but I could see this project being successful if MJ sticks to helping his customers and not his own vision.  There's nothing wrong in providing a paid for, high quality experience for a niche market and then dominate it *if* you can meet the quality and performance bar your (niche) players expect. IMO MJ will get distracted and lose focus once people pile in.  He'll think it's 1999 again and forget he's niche and then it'll be all over.

Also, I bet this KS is only to prove and match funding to other investors.  He won't get far on only $2M and he probably has other stuff lined up.  There's lot of money in VA banana stand.

[Hoax]

For me, there are a few things I miss about DAoC's RvR[...]

The community of DAOC can be found in any game with pvp, Tera (what I happen to be playing atm) has awful pvp systems but the top pvp guilds of a server still all know eachother very well. It doesn't even have fucking factions and there is still that knowing the enemy stuff. EVE is single server on a scale we may never see again and people still recognize the names of enemies and friends. I have no idea how you can say that is dead and gone. It continues to be one of the only reasons to bother w/ MMO's for pvp instead of a lobby+fight system (MWO et all) which otherwise holds a ton of advantages.

As for the whole no gear progression in DAOC, what I remember best about DAOC is that it had the worst class balance in pvp I'd seen. It was arguably worse than the EQ1 Zek servers. Which is really saying something. I also remember that it wasn't enough to have one account and one max level of the right class. Because buffbots and healbots were so ridiculously strong they were almost necessary if you liked winning. So yeah I'm with you that gear progression sucks for PVP games but I hated DAOC for having so much timesink and horrible boring timesink at that (worst PVE of my life) before you were PvP ready.

DAOC had the most oppressive CC of any game I've ever played.

[Falconeer]

The Community aspect and the "Feeling of belonging" is where Arenanet dropped the ball with GW2. I think what you have mentioned about enemy names, fighting for a faction while having more than one enemy, and creating a strong sense of community could have easily been achieved there. Server transfert and "GenericName" over enemies is what killed it before it even had a chance.

Some of those things don't even need a RvRvR game to come back, and certainly not DAoC 2. They just need someone to remember what made group PvP fun back in the days and implement a few simple community features to support that.

[Fordel]

I miss rushing to get the deathblow on someone so everyone in the area would see "Fordel was just killed by Sjofn!" (that never actually happened that I recall, alas). I miss Kildorn killing this poor other skald who happened to have her armor dyed like mine 50 times while trying to find ME to kill. I miss "knowing," however superficially, my enemies as well as my allies.

You got pretty close once! http://www.nexuszero.net/Img/SjofnRvR.jpg  

-edit- I think my favorite thing about that picture now, is that it isn't re-sized or anything, that's just the resolution I used back then. 



DaoC was inclusive, was my big thing. (until ToA at least, then the fierce pant leveling competitions started). It wasn't just about the top guilds or whatever, you didn't need to be part of any club to be relevant to the general cause of your realm, since you were automatically part of a even bigger club that everyone joined.


It's also never coming back, people are too savvy to the genre now and will just find a way to get onto the winning team and snowball it all into ruin. Imagine Mid Igraine, now add in servers transfers and shit. No one is staying on that horrible fucking realm.

[Ingmar]

For me, there are a few things I miss about DAoC's RvR[...]

The community of DAOC can be found in any game with pvp

What? No. Certainly not true. WAR probably would have had it if it didn't suck, GW2 could have it if the servers didn't rotate, it ALMOST has it now. But any game? Not really.

[Paelos]

Wait, what?  Didn't you have to level your goddamn pants in DAOC?  I remember my friend telling me on the phone how he finally max leveled his dumb flail and was killing entire groups of people by himself with a heal bot hidden in a tower.

You summed up exactly how ridiculous the game was after ToA. #1 you had buff bots in towers (always a problem), #2 PANTS ON HEAD LEVELING UNDER FULL MOON WHILE IN STORMY WEATHERS.