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Margalis
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Reply #315 on: September 24, 2013, 12:43:25 AM

Yeah, the format is pretty lame. Watch a totally irrelevant team like GG play a lot, watch a team like C9 play 3 games.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Rasix
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Reply #316 on: September 24, 2013, 01:21:49 AM

They need to just dump everyone into 4 groups.  Best of 2s with everyone in group.  Winners bracket/losers bracket.  Play out it.  There's nothing wrong with ripping off someone's format if it puts a better product forward.

And yeah, that group phase was fucking brutal.  One group wasn't even competitive. And the group that was competitive basically had one team that was a throw machine and the other that was easily the worst team that has ever been in the LCS.   At least watching SKT1 and OMG play was entertaining, and group B had the Euros beating up on the worst Korean mid we've ever seen.  There was just too much of it, too spread out.

« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 01:32:47 AM by Rasix »

-Rasix
Ashamanchill
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Reply #317 on: September 24, 2013, 05:37:29 AM

You know what? C9 only deserved three games after that one.  Facepalm  Holy shit that was embarrassing. The best part was the announcers cheering them when they got one kill like 20 mins in.

I just don't understand that thought process. 'Hey guys, my notebook says it's okay to leave Kassadin open.'

'I Dunno man, Xpeke is kind of good with him. He shat all over us the first game with Kassadin.'

'Hey, hey, hey! Who's the one with the notebook here!?!'


A poster signed by Richard Garriot, Brad McQuaid, Marc Jacobs and SmerricK Dart.  Of course it would arrive a couple years late, missing letters and a picture but it would be epic none the less. -Tmon
Malakili
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Reply #318 on: September 24, 2013, 09:33:43 AM

You know what? C9 only deserved three games after that one.  Facepalm  Holy shit that was embarrassing. The best part was the announcers cheering them when they got one kill like 20 mins in.

I just don't understand that thought process. 'Hey guys, my notebook says it's okay to leave Kassadin open.'

'I Dunno man, Xpeke is kind of good with him. He shat all over us the first game with Kassadin.'

'Hey, hey, hey! Who's the one with the notebook here!?!'



I can understand why people want to go with what they've practiced and prepared for when it comes to Bans.  But when someone is on a roll like that, I just think you have to understand the moment.  Peke has always been good with Kassadin, and maybe you think you can get away with a counter pick anyway.  But I think you need to be able to see what is happening and ban him out. 

The other issue is that Cloud9 has no real competition in NA and they looked like they weren't really prepared to go against another world class team.  I don't know what they can really do about it, but they need to find a way to get in more games with teams that can push them.
Rasix
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Reply #319 on: September 25, 2013, 01:06:09 AM

Gamma Bears were either really bad or SKT1 is just hitting ridiculous levels.  Still, again, would have liked to see if this was Gamma Bears not having their feet under them yet.

Royal Club v OMG was kind of fun. Royal Club team fought so well.  Feel bad for OMG, but RC just made more plays and executed a lot better.

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Ashamanchill
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Reply #320 on: September 25, 2013, 07:32:21 AM

Gamma Bears were either really bad or SKT1 is just hitting ridiculous levels.  Still, again, would have liked to see if this was Gamma Bears not having their feet under them yet.

Royal Club v OMG was kind of fun. Royal Club team fought so well.  Feel bad for OMG, but RC just made more plays and executed a lot better.

Holy shit Royal Club looked like beasts in that last game. As for SKT vs the Bears, I watched like 15 minutes of that and deduced how that series was going to go.

A poster signed by Richard Garriot, Brad McQuaid, Marc Jacobs and SmerricK Dart.  Of course it would arrive a couple years late, missing letters and a picture but it would be epic none the less. -Tmon
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Reply #321 on: September 28, 2013, 08:24:07 AM

I know nothing about League of Legends and I am getting excited about the semifinals (watched last night's between SK and Najin and now pumped up about tonight's Royal Club vs. Fnatic). Damn, eSport can be so fuckin exciting. As an old fart I dreamt this when I was a kid but I never really thought it was going to happen.

Malakili
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Reply #322 on: September 28, 2013, 03:13:20 PM

So, anyone else watching Fnatic v. Royal Club right now?
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Reply #323 on: September 28, 2013, 03:32:45 PM

I am. Too bad I hardly understand what is going on. I understand Fnatic got their arses handed in what seems to be a mildly upsetting first game.

Malakili
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Reply #324 on: September 28, 2013, 04:05:21 PM

Game 2 was very exciting!
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Reply #325 on: September 28, 2013, 05:47:17 PM

Smelling a come back... an amazing one if it happens.

Ashamanchill
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Reply #326 on: September 28, 2013, 07:19:09 PM

that last game was the best game I have seen at this tourney so far. It was the only game that went long, and was truly back and forth.

A poster signed by Richard Garriot, Brad McQuaid, Marc Jacobs and SmerricK Dart.  Of course it would arrive a couple years late, missing letters and a picture but it would be epic none the less. -Tmon
Margalis
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Reply #327 on: September 28, 2013, 11:56:57 PM

I just don't understand that thought process. 'Hey guys, my notebook says it's okay to leave Kassadin open.'

It's just over-thinking - believing you lost the game for reasons too complex to parse, believing you have some counter when you don't etc. They got fooled by the same thing twice, which is a little embarrassing.

As far as Fnatic vs RC, to me I can isolate why Fnatic lost to one moment - Fnatic wins a team fight and all the enemy team is dead for at least 30 seconds. Both the remaining members on Fnatic immediately start to recall. One cancels the recall and goes to push bottom, the other one does recall. Off the push they take the inhib tower but not the inihb.

Why recall there? Why even start a recall? The enemy is dead, it doesn't matter how much health you have, you cannot die. If both members made a beeline for the inhib they probably could have gotten it.

After winning fights RC would go for the jugular, whereas Fnatic had no killer instinct. They would win a teamfight, be up 4 members to 2, then lamely recall. Against RC the first time you make a major mistake late-game you lose, against Fnatic you get 3 or 4 chances.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Malakili
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Reply #328 on: September 29, 2013, 09:11:01 AM

It seems like the European teams in general don't like to take any risks.  Instead they prefer to recall, spend their money and head back out at full hp and with a bit more item advantage.  Royal was constantly ahead on towers the whole series, even when behind on kills because they simply seemed willing to play aggressively.
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Reply #329 on: September 29, 2013, 10:42:20 AM

You guys are right. The only thing I can add to that is that after the laning phase, Royal Elite was almost never not as five (save a dedicated split pusher), while a few times where the Chinese got baron, they had caught a member of Fnatic off in bot lane alone.

A poster signed by Richard Garriot, Brad McQuaid, Marc Jacobs and SmerricK Dart.  Of course it would arrive a couple years late, missing letters and a picture but it would be epic none the less. -Tmon
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Reply #330 on: October 04, 2013, 03:38:35 AM

Final match tonight. 8pm PDT, 5am GMT.

http://twitch.tv/riotgames

Malakili
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Reply #331 on: October 04, 2013, 12:08:06 PM

I kind of want to watch, but starting at 11pm for me is rough.  Maybe I'll watch match 1 and then watch the rest of the vods in the morning.
Ashamanchill
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Reply #332 on: October 04, 2013, 11:33:44 PM

Wow these finals are really becoming boring as fuck to watch. 'Oh hey, a team got a lead 10 minutes in? Cool, I'll just take off for an hour and hope the next game is started by then.'

A poster signed by Richard Garriot, Brad McQuaid, Marc Jacobs and SmerricK Dart.  Of course it would arrive a couple years late, missing letters and a picture but it would be epic none the less. -Tmon
Malakili
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Reply #333 on: October 04, 2013, 11:39:44 PM

Wow these finals are really becoming boring as fuck to watch. 'Oh hey, a team got a lead 10 minutes in? Cool, I'll just take off for an hour and hope the next game is started by then.'

This is one of the main reasons that I prefer DOTA to LoL.   But I'm much more annoyed with the hour long intro than the game itself.  It already starts late enough at night, let alone an hour of some band playing.
Margalis
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Reply #334 on: October 05, 2013, 12:01:06 AM

Top teams need to learn that against other top teams if you get behind you have to make something happen early, because at this level the enemy is unlikely to throw. Especially SKT, which gets ahead and plays a slow starvation game. You can't just farm it out and wait for a mistake.

Vision is also a culprit. IMO there really needs to be something like a 3-ward limit over the map. It's really hard to make something happen if the stronger team has wards everywhere in your own jungle.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Margalis
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Reply #335 on: October 05, 2013, 12:35:49 AM

Kass is totally wasting his teleport this game. (Game 2) He didn't TP in to fight at Baron the first time, then did TP after SKT already took Baron the next time when he couldn't do anything to help and could have taken a turret if he kept pushing.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Ashamanchill
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Reply #336 on: October 05, 2013, 12:51:21 AM

Wow these finals are really becoming boring as fuck to watch. 'Oh hey, a team got a lead 10 minutes in? Cool, I'll just take off for an hour and hope the next game is started by then.'

This is one of the main reasons that I prefer DOTA to LoL.   But I'm much more annoyed with the hour long intro than the game itself.  It already starts late enough at night, let alone an hour of some band playing.

I'm actually really considering dropping LoL in favour of watching Dota 2 over this (and the stale ass champion selection) after the worlds.

A poster signed by Richard Garriot, Brad McQuaid, Marc Jacobs and SmerricK Dart.  Of course it would arrive a couple years late, missing letters and a picture but it would be epic none the less. -Tmon
Malakili
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Reply #337 on: October 05, 2013, 09:36:43 AM

Wow these finals are really becoming boring as fuck to watch. 'Oh hey, a team got a lead 10 minutes in? Cool, I'll just take off for an hour and hope the next game is started by then.'

This is one of the main reasons that I prefer DOTA to LoL.   But I'm much more annoyed with the hour long intro than the game itself.  It already starts late enough at night, let alone an hour of some band playing.

I'm actually really considering dropping LoL in favour of watching Dota 2 over this (and the stale ass champion selection) after the worlds.

Haven't watched any DOTA 2 before?  Join Dota has a pretty good VOD archive if you want to watch some.
Rasix
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Reply #338 on: October 05, 2013, 12:26:01 PM

Eh, it was a disappointing finals for sure.  The semis were a lot higher quality.  SKT1 seems to be the wrong team to try to dive comp against and that's what Royal plays. NJS did better in this regard.

This Words was a return of the snowball meta, not surprisingly considering how big of a comeback Triforce made.  Why? I didn't follow the changes to the item, but Triforce construction helps you stay ahead and really reduced the overall champ pool (especially for top lane).

The event, in totality, was just too long. They need to really shorten up the prelims and condense the format.  Two stages would be nice.   I'd give my thoughts on the Dota2 scene, which I like, but I have to take my son to swim class  awesome, for real

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Malakili
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Reply #339 on: October 05, 2013, 01:09:30 PM

One of the big issues with these sorts of games is that the viewing experience is so variable because the games are so variable (and because of how snowballing works).  This is essentially the Super Bowl of League of Legends, but you can get...


In the Super Bowl, even if the game isn't too close you get a timed game, some good football, and if the game stays within a couple of scores it can be exciting all the way to the end because football doesn't snowball.  It isn't just league that suffers with this, but different games suffer with it to different degrees.
Margalis
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Reply #340 on: October 06, 2013, 02:20:51 AM

I remember watching the Raiders vs Tampa Bay...

The format is bad in a number of ways though. It's too long, you see too many irrelevant games between irrelevant teams, and teams with byes can play 2 games and be out, even though those are the teams you want to see play more.

I think double elimination would be a lot better. In double elim every game is meaningful, you get to see good teams play a lot, bad teams get eliminated quickly, and the format lends itself to a lot of storylines and drama.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
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Reply #341 on: October 06, 2013, 03:55:14 AM

In case you missed it, and are curious, here's the Grand Final from last August DOTA 2 World Championship. It went to game 5 and this is a pretty amazing match. Totally worth watching. Side note: winners got 1.4M.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8HBr1EGX1I

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Reply #342 on: October 06, 2013, 04:34:28 AM

I burnt out on spectating halfway through this season. I like being able to keep abreast of what's going on in the competitive scene, but 12 games per week during the split is way too much to take in, let alone paying attention to other regions. Then regionals is just more of the same teams, and then worlds is none of the same teams after the first couple rounds unless you've been watching OGN all season.

It's better than when we would go 2-4 months between serious competitions, but I think they should ease up on the scheduling during the split. Have half the teams stay home each week to give them some breathing room and practice new strats, keep things fresh.
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Reply #343 on: October 06, 2013, 05:14:35 AM

Incoming  severely vitriolic rant:

This has been building up in me since midway though the 'Spring Split' of the LCS.  You know what, FUCK the way professional LoL has been going these days, with the worlds being the latest, and most execrable example. The way LoL is played now at that level is boring as shit.

First of all, IT'S ALL THE SAME MOTHER FUCKING CHAMPIONS!!! Maybe those of you new to the scene don't know, but the game used to be played without the same handful of boring ass OP champions on BOTH teams every damn game. For those that remember, first there used to be summoners that were really good on certain champions. Not champions that were OP under the current meta, just plain they were good at a champion. Like, HotshotGG had to have Nidalee, or later Cho'gath or even Galio banned away from him, or Reginald, with Alistar Mid (don't laugh, it was a thing), or Leblanc. Teams would have totally different compositions of the opposing one, and you could fucking tell them apart. 'Oh shit, there is Sivir bot' you'd say, that must be Chaox. 'Oh look, it's Shaco jungle (lolololol good luck seeing that in a fucking regular game now, let alone a pro one), that's got to be SaintViscious'.

And I'm not saying there wasn't established metas, back in the day, cause there sure as shit was, even if they weren't nearly as hidebound and frustrating as they are today, but there was also teams willing to BREAK that meta. Remember old school Moscow 5 (currently [ugh, sigh] Gambit Gaming)? Remember all the crazy innovative shit that they would do? Shyvana super counter jungle? Or when they ran Solo lane blue buff Urgot at the bot, with roaming Taric and Alistar jungle vs Dignitas? Or Heck, even when TSM ran a Teemo top (on TheRainMan) in the Season One worlds? and it wasn't feeding or a troll pick, it actually was a thing. You aren't going to see anything like that in a game on the line anymore.

But no, flash forward to today, and it's the same motherfucking OP champions over and over and over. To the point where, even without knowing what teams are playing, I can guess what champs are banned or picked. Is it Shen, Elise, Jarvan, Zac, Zed, Lulu, Sona, Threash, Ahri, Orianna, Fizz, or Renekton? It's a fucking sad day when I'm watching a game with, what, 116 champions?, and only a lame ass handful of them are ever picked. It's fucking boring!!! And you know what the worst part is. The goddamn announcers that go along with this shit, casue they are so desperate for this to be respected as a real sport. They will go on about how, 'Oh, So and so at mid has such a deep champion selection pool'. Why?!? Cause he can play Ahri, Fizz, Zed, Orianna, Gragas, Ryze, Jayce, and hell, lets throw in Kassadin and Lissandra. Fucking wow. And guess what, those that aren't banned, or mid A doesn't pick, mid B will, and be praised for his depth as well. And when someone hovers over, for one fleeting second, a pick like Teemo, or Akali, or (guffaw guffaw) Soraka, they say 'Well I know he's not really picking THAT champion'. Fuck you!!! God forbid a team pick something not on the approved list. Then when a team does pick something slightly different, and doesn't ban out one of the approved champions, they rant on and on about this team doesn't RESPECT the Ahri pick. Shit the fuck up you losers!!! Stop projecting your own fears and inadequacies of this sport onto a goddamn champion selection. Remember when you didn't know with 100 per cent accuracy based on what was banned, what a mid would pick??? Yeah, I know, it was scary.

But even all that shit, was tolerable (if grating), til' this worlds brought something that I truly hate to the forefront. Something so un-fun and boring as shit to watch. The SUPER snowball meta. These whole worlds (and I've watched every single game of them live, save a handful of Mineski or GamingGear games), have been this way, with the exception, of, what, 3, 4 (and I'm being generous here) games? One team (that isn't Vulcan lol) gets out ahead a few turrets, pushed up their vision a bit, and that's it, the game is done. Close the lights, get out early to beat the traffic folks, these games are done by the fifteen minute mark, if not by the bans and select stage.  Snoooooooze. I feel sorry for the announcers that have to try to call these one sided affairs, and no I don't want to see it brought to Doublelift at the analysts desk to discuss how one team got Lee Sin, and the other didn't, so GG.

Please Riot, bring back the 1000 gold kill bounty. Crank up the cost of pink wards, or oracles, or something. Bring back some form of fortify, cause seeing a turret go down just cause the jungler cycled to that lane is BORING!!!! This is the lamest meta ever. I don't want to have to alt tab and go farm a dungeon in WoW, or tackle that chemistry homework I've been procrastinating, or finally get to doing my laundry just cause one team got a tower AND dragon, and I know the game is a foregone conclusion now. I miss having a meta in which, hey, maybe this team can turtle, and hey, maybe farm up and try for a lategame win. Otherwise, just fucking call the game after one team has two unanswered towers and save us all some gorram time.

I do understand. Riot has a cruddy tightrope to walk. They can't nerf shit wantonly to effect the pros cause it will trickle down to the rest of us shlubs. I mean, it's not they they can tweak certain champions locally on each ma- oh wait. Seriously, if they want to tweak shit to hit only the official touney builds, they can do that no problem. It's got to be better than the current problem.

T.L.D.R. Old League: A cool, if uncontrolled, acid trip. Could be bad, could be the best time of your life. New League: A frustrating trip to the Dentist. You know what's going to happen, he knows what's going to happen, so just get this shit over with.

A poster signed by Richard Garriot, Brad McQuaid, Marc Jacobs and SmerricK Dart.  Of course it would arrive a couple years late, missing letters and a picture but it would be epic none the less. -Tmon
Margalis
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Reply #344 on: October 06, 2013, 05:24:00 AM

I burnt out on spectating halfway through this season. I like being able to keep abreast of what's going on in the competitive scene, but 12 games per week during the split is way too much to take in, let alone paying attention to other regions. Then regionals is just more of the same teams, and then worlds is none of the same teams after the first couple rounds unless you've been watching OGN all season.

It's better than when we would go 2-4 months between serious competitions, but I think they should ease up on the scheduling during the split. Have half the teams stay home each week to give them some breathing room and practice new strats, keep things fresh.

I agree. The whole regular season / playoffs thing just doesn't work that well. Most of the games don't matter and you have to watch like 4 different leagues (US, EU, KR and other) to stay up on the action.

The lack of international competition hurts as well. You have no idea where teams stand relative to teams in other leagues and no chance to see the international teams.

IMO having a major tournament once or month or so was better. If you need teams to play more to get more practice maybe you can have entry into those tournaments determined by regularly scheduled games - so maybe you play for a month, the top teams go to a tournament, then do it again.

Quote from: Falconeer
In case you missed it, and are curious, here's the Grand Final from last August DOTA 2 World Championship. It went to game 5 and this is a pretty amazing match. Totally worth watching. Side note: winners got 1.4M.

I think watching DOTA 2 is quite boring. This was good to watch because it was so close, but had it not been close it would have been pretty awful. DOTA games often have a lot of lulls where neither team is really doing anything (especially after the outer towers fall). It's also hard to spectate due to things like the minimap indicators, hard to read fonts, graphics and camera distance, etc.

Often times when a hero is successfully ganked they get no chance to run or juke and just insta-die, which makes the lead-up to the gank as important as the gank itself. But it can be hard to follow that, maybe in part due to the camera operation...a lot of time it's just "welp a guy's dead!"

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Margalis
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Reply #345 on: October 06, 2013, 05:46:36 AM

Please Riot, bring back the 1000 gold kill bounty. Crank up the cost of pink wards, or oracles, or something. Bring back some form of fortify, cause seeing a turret go down just cause the jungler cycled to that lane is BORING!!!! This is the lamest meta ever. I don't want to have to alt tab and go farm a dungeon in WoW, or tackle that chemistry homework I've been procrastinating, or finally get to doing my laundry just cause one team got a tower AND dragon, and I know the game is a foregone conclusion now.

I think this mostly comes down to vision.

I main support, over the course of the last couple seasons support has gone from ending the game with two major items to one to now often zero. You just buy vision.

When one team gets ahead they ward the enemy jungle, then at that point they control 70% of the map.  There's almost no chance to be ambushed, you get all your buffs and dragon for free, you get a lot of enemy jungle. SKT's main strategy is to get some map control, ward a ton, then kill the enemy team when they try to clear wards or re-establish vision. SKT sitting in Baron pit with a ward on the other side then jumping over when someone comes to check happens in like 80% of their games.

I like the DTOA system where there is a limit on how many wards the shop can sell. (I think that's how it works) It makes ward placement really matter a lot. Now that permanent stealth is not really a thing in LoL any more I don't know that pink wards or oracles are even needed as they are used almost exclusively to clear green wards.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
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Reply #346 on: October 06, 2013, 08:31:06 AM

The LoL meta has always been pretty stale, focusing on defense and stacking against risk than actually winning the game. We've never had a sub 20 minute game. A team gets ahead and its a slow crawl to victory from there. The better the teams the longer the crawl. And there isn't a nerf or buff to push teams out of the "reliable" meta that has ruled LoL since hotshotgg was considered the best player in LoL. You'll need a cap on player's ability to gain vision. And actual incentives to taking risk vs staking against risk. For now nerfing vision is a start but I don't think it'll change much in the way player's play. Safe reliable victories over daring strategies will "win" the day because the team that play's more cautiously will win easier than the aggressive types. The goal of any change is to make the game a balance between players who play aggressive and players who play defensive. Kinda like starcraft 2 right now, where neither play styles generally win out too much over the other.

What I'd like to see, global cap on the amount of wards in the game. Make the total amount be linked to the purchase of sightstone and its upgrade but not stacking. So at most players can only place 2 wards at once and possess 4-5 wards on the map in total. Bring back the level 1 dragon.

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Malakili
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Reply #347 on: October 06, 2013, 09:06:57 AM

In DOTA 2 the way it works is that wards have a cooldown on purchasing them.  I think you can buy 4 at a time before the cooldown starts.   You can buy as many "pink" wards as you want but in DOTA 2 they only see stealth, they don't have a large vision radius.  In other words, if you are standing near one, you can see stealthed units, but the ward itself doesn't reveal the map.

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Reply #348 on: October 06, 2013, 10:23:55 AM

I don't see how that helps when you can rotate the wards between the jungler and the support. How long the cooldown?

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Malakili
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Reply #349 on: October 06, 2013, 10:30:32 AM

I don't see how that helps when you can rotate the wards between the jungler and the support. How long the cooldown?

The cooldown is for the stock available in the shop, not for a player buying the wards. It is 6 minutes per set (each set comes with 2 wards).  The game starts with 1 set available in the shop, and at 6 minutes the second set becomes available.  After that the stock doesn't increase past 2 sets maximum.  The cooldown for replenishment of the stock starts when it is purchased. (My purchase 4 before the cooldown starts comment in the previous post was wrong, each set of 2 has their own cooldown)

The wards themselves last for the same 6 minutes once placed on the map.

http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Observer_Ward
« Last Edit: October 06, 2013, 10:34:54 AM by Malakili »
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