What's next for F13 Bloodbowl?

[proudft]

I'm definitely playing... something.

I've got choices of terrible-record Humans, unthemed High Elves, beat-to-shit Khemri, or something built-up in a jiffy from the feeder league.  Choices, choices.

I liked 9 days.  It seemed to often have two weekends in there but didn't extend to two whole weeks, if that makes sense.  Maybe it doesn't mathematically, I dunno, but it seemed like it! 

But yeah, more important than 'X number of days' we need a ruthless heartless dictator to move the day along.  My only nagging worry is two late-ish people both saying "I tried to schedule it with the other guy" and both failing and both blaming each other... I dunno, make it a tie in that situation?

[Megrim]

i'm down for another season.  CE for sure, and i'd be happy with whatever team arrangement feels the healthiest to the organizers.

i've been considering swapping out my trusty lizards for a couple seasons but given how entrenched some of the bigger TV teams are i feel anxious stepping in again from square one, handicaps notwithstanding --  my gaming time is a little constrained of late so i'm not certain i'd be able to put a team through its initial workouts in the feeder league to get things up to a competitive level. i'd prefer some way of gently easing some of the mega teams out to pasture but i can understand wanting to preserve monsters like ruvaldt's team if you're coaching them.  just scary for poor baby drogg's prospective new teams 

Part of the game is knowing how to handle TV differential though. There is should be nothing wrong with playing a completely vanilla team throughout a season. This is especially true for some teams - elves for example pretty much gain spp for just walking onto the pitch.

[satael]

Couldn't (was too lazy to ) find a better thread to post this in:

http://forum.bloodbowl-game.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2502   /  

nvm, seems to be fake

[Megrim]

By the way guys, the latest patch and server shuffle has actually introduced a 'Spectate' option under the Community tab. You can watch live, and recently played games through it.

Also, what is the end-consensus on how the next season is going to go?

[Modern Angel]

Also, what is the end-consensus on how the next season is going to go?

Slowly, apparently.

[Ingmar]

A definitive statement from Falc on whether or not he wants to take back over would help, as Iain is waiting for that.

[lamaros]

By the way guys, the latest patch and server shuffle has actually introduced a 'Spectate' option under the Community tab. You can watch live, and recently played games through it.

Also, what is the end-consensus on how the next season is going to go?

Pretty cool.

[Ruvaldt]

A definitive statement from Falc on whether or not he wants to take back over would help, as Iain is waiting for that.

It would, but I don't think we should hold our breath.  

Putting a community on hold for a message that might never come risks letting people drift away and never return.  The last time Falc was a commissioner for a season was almost a year ago, and the main reason there was a big gap between seasons 5 and 6 was because we waited for him then, too.

I'd at least like to see a sign-up thread for season 7 by the end of January.

[Modern Angel]

Yeah, let's shit or get off the pot on this. Falc, I love you, but it takes two minutes to post and I know you come by here from time to time because you played this past season.

I'd message him, tell him to post by Sunday, either way. Let's roll with this.

[IainC]

I've messaged him and asked him to post here. If he doesn't then I'll roll on at the end of Jan and post a signup thread. If he still wants to run it then that's fine with me.

[Falconeer]

I've been a jerk.

I mean it.

Now...

[Falconeer]

Ok, so. I've been a jerk to this fantastic community I contributed to found, and I can't even say why. Excuses, I got plenty. Reality is, I missed it and I am ready to play again, and all.
Do I feel like taking the Commissioner role again? Honestly, no. Even if it's not much, I'm entering a time of my life of great changes, and while I still have plenty of free time in my days, I have a number of growing anxieties due to "things I have to do before that deadline" that I simply can't put another one on top of those, no matter how sweet it is. I LOVED every second of my work on Blood Bowl, and I am terribly sorry for not having updated the Rankings (another thing I really loved to have). It's just all a consequence of what I mentioned. For these things, I am sorry. And maybe I apologise too much, but it's just the way I am. Acknoweldging things I could have done differently help me do them right the next time. I suppose.

I also think Iain did a fantastic job and I feel that he completely shares my feelings and vision of the League. Even if I wanted to take back my role, I wouldn't do it without him. Since I don't feel like doing so, it's all on you pal! And thank you so so much for doing this. If the whole thing died I would have not forgiven myself, you saved me from some more self-deprecation.

About the new season (and take these just as my "votes", not as my "rules"):

- I am OK with extending the invitation to new people from other commnities, as long as f13 remains the hub. Since it will still be called "f13 League", they have to come here. We don't go there.

- I think it's OK to extend the TV some more, if people are freaked out about the difference with seasoned teams, but I wouldn't go higher than 1400. And I still think that's too much. "Doctored" teams coming from the Feeder League are already very powerful, due to all the minmaxing. If you take the TV limit away you are gonna have frustrating monstruosities left and right. I'd vote against it.

- I would still make sure that no team that ever played outside the f13 cartel can sign up for the League. Either you are brand new or come from the feeder. No teams from other confederations. Maybe it's my little obsession, but I like it like that.

- Any edition you prefer is fine. No reasons not to switch to Chaos if it's compatible with the previous version for those who didn't want to upgrade.

- What else?

- Thank you for being patient, and for being still here after all this time.

 

[Ingmar]

I think maybe a way to split the difference would be to allow teams from similar private leagues to make the hop over, if one of us was around to testify that there weren't any roster shenanigans going on. The little side leagues that I've played in with all people who play here anyway, for example, or Iain's testimony about Qt3/BF league, etc.

I feel like with the step back we took in participation numbers last season we're probably better served setting the rules such that the fewest number of people find a reason to not play. If that means loosening the rules on TV/what team sources can join so there are fewer barriers, then I say do it. Or alternately if we figure out that a fresh TV 1000 across the board start is more comfortable for people, then go with that instead, whatever. It just plays so much better with the full 32 that I think it is probably ok to compromise our principles a little bit to get there. 

And Falc, I don't think you've been a jerk. Honestly it is pretty unusual for an endeavor like this to last 2 seasons, let alone 6 with the same guy running 5, so really, good job.

[Modern Angel]

Yeah, I'm your fan, Falc. I don't think you're a jerk or anything. I just want things to move.

[ezrast]

I don't think many people have multiple teams over 1300 TV who aren't already 100% in for next season. Raising the cap makes it harder for new coaches to be competitive, not easier.

[Sjofn]

Being more flexible with the cap might be nice. But I don't actually care that much, because I do not care enough to make the Perfect Feeder League Team should I tire of the Norse, and I think inducements do a good job of handicapping a match.

I also kinda understand Falc's fetish for Purity of the Teams to a degree, but ... it's also sort of a silly, random whim, and I think we'd have a much easier time reaching critical mass if that got relaxed for sure.

But ultimately, the only thing I really care about are the days getting advanced in a timely manner. :P

[Ruvaldt]

I don't think many people have multiple teams over 1300 TV who aren't already 100% in for next season. Raising the cap makes it harder for new coaches to be competitive, not easier.

Raising the cap makes it easier for new coaches because they can build a better team in the feeder league and bring them into the regular season.  Instead of being forced to only have 1300 they can come in with 1500, etc.

I still vote to do away with the new team TV cap altogether, but I think I'm in the minority on that.

[eldaec]

The reason the 2000TV teams win, is that they are piloted by people who are less bad at bloodbowl. The reason those people are less bad at bloodbowl is that they've played enough games to build 2000TV team(s).

Even with 1000TV teams all around, the same people would win.


I don't mind a few transfers from another league if people want to come from there. Other than that, suggest we stick to prior teams, new teams, or anything under nn00TV from the feeder.

[IainC]

Ok so here are my proposed rules for Season 7. Discuss them and I'll post the signup thread by the end of January.

Teams:
Teams from any previous f13 leagues are eligible to compete including gimmick leagues, D&M league, Masters and the feeder league.
Teams which played their most recent match in a regular season have no TV limit.
Teams which played their last game in any of the other f13 leagues have a TV limit of 1400 including cash and injured players. They must have at least 11 players on the roster (this can include injured players).
Teams from outside f13 league may join as long as they meet the TV limit for other f13 league teams as above. In addition I reserve the right to refuse entry to teams that appear to have been farmed.
Chaos Edition teams are allowed.

Coaches:
Competitors must have an f13 account and must join the f13 Bloodbowlers Steam group. They do not have to be active on the forums but are encouraged to post their match reports and join in the discussions.
Steam name and BB Coach name must be provided when signing up.

Timescale:
Each league day will last for 9 days. This should give coaches with widely separate timezones at least one weekend to organise their match.
At the time limit all games that have not yet been played will be forfeited as a 0-0 draw.
Extensions will only be allowed if a match has been definitely arranged and will take place within a day or two of the deadline. If the match does not go ahead as planned then it will be forfeited.

Matches must be uploaded to BBManager before they will be validated. This should be done by the winning coach or by either coach in the case of a draw.

The league structure will be decided once signups are final. It will take the form of a championship with a playoff and failoff post-season cup. Number of divisions and format of the playoffs etc will be determined by the number of teams.

[ezrast]

I don't think many people have multiple teams over 1300 TV who aren't already 100% in for next season. Raising the cap makes it harder for new coaches to be competitive, not easier.

Raising the cap makes it easier for new coaches because they can build a better team in the feeder league and bring them into the regular season.  Instead of being forced to only have 1300 they can come in with 1500, etc.

List of coaches with teams over 1400 in the feeder league:

Megrim
JRuvaldt
Teleku
Lamaros
luckton
Megrim
Ramas
avaia
Ice Cream Emperor
Ingmar
Catfud
Comstar
IainC

This is the same as the list of people who will benefit from raising the TV cap. Genuinely new coaches aren't going to sink the time into grooming a 1500-TV team for tournament play because they haven't even decided if they like the game yet - and if they do, they'll skill wrong, or suffer so many injuries in the process that their 1500-TV team will have the stats of a 1350-TV team. Experienced coaches will understand that TV differential isn't necessarily significant in the hands of an inexperienced coach and will probably prefer to play casual games within their own communities anyway.

I'm not arguing whether or not a cap raise is bad for the league, but it's silly to think that the change would directly benefit much of anyone but you.

[Ruvaldt]

I'm entering next season with a team that will either be brand new or pretty close to being new so it won't affect me much.  I won't be hitting the old or new cap, most likely.  I'm just saying that fewer restrictions lets coaches tailor a team that is more suitable to them, and thus enables them to perform more towards their maximum ability/confidence/fun factor.

Maybe I should rephrase what I mean by "new coach."  I'm not talking about brand new coaches who are new to the game.  They're going to lose anyway.  

I'm talking about coaches who are new to this league.  I want coaches who are new to the league to not feel overwhelmed by teams that have spent the last five seasons developing into perfect scoring/killing machines like many of ours have, and they should at least have an option to build up something that they are comfortable with.  I'm not saying it would even make them more competitive, necessarily, it would just make the game more fun for them, which is kind of the point.  

I agree with Eldaec.  Most good coaches are going to find a way to win, regardless of the TV of their current team, and thus I think that having a TV cap for new teams is meaningless.  All it does is set an artificial bar that doesn't help or hurt anyone's chances to win, and restricts one's ability to enter the season with a team that they find more fun/are more confident playing.

Plus, we're not just talking about the Feeder League right now since we are opening the possibility of people from other leagues coming in.

[eldaec]

Discussion is not necessary. Where do I post for signup?

[Ruvaldt]

Is that Cheddar Persille's Mexican cousin, Manchego Persille?

[Ingmar]

I don't think many people have multiple teams over 1300 TV who aren't already 100% in for next season. Raising the cap makes it harder for new coaches to be competitive, not easier.

Raising the cap makes it easier for new coaches because they can build a better team in the feeder league and bring them into the regular season.  Instead of being forced to only have 1300 they can come in with 1500, etc.

List of coaches with teams over 1400 in the feeder league:

Megrim
JRuvaldt
Teleku
Lamaros
luckton
Megrim
Ramas
avaia
Ice Cream Emperor
Ingmar
Catfud
Comstar
IainC

This is the same as the list of people who will benefit from raising the TV cap. Genuinely new coaches aren't going to sink the time into grooming a 1500-TV team for tournament play because they haven't even decided if they like the game yet - and if they do, they'll skill wrong, or suffer so many injuries in the process that their 1500-TV team will have the stats of a 1350-TV team. Experienced coaches will understand that TV differential isn't necessarily significant in the hands of an inexperienced coach and will probably prefer to play casual games within their own communities anyway.

I'm not arguing whether or not a cap raise is bad for the league, but it's silly to think that the change would directly benefit much of anyone but you.

What this ignores is the possibility of coaches from other leagues (I'm thinking mainly of the BF/Qt3 people) who might have teams they could bring in that aren't strictly in that zone.

Also, it should be said, it is good for everyone if I bring in my feeder team that's over 1400, because it is my shitty Khemri. 

[satael]

My orc team in feeder league is exactly 1400 so I'd only need to get rid of any money on it to play (a change from going into the season with a fresh skaven team) 

[proudft]

List of coaches with teams over 1400 in the feeder league:

I'll have you know my feeder Skaven are 1430!  The MNG injuries are deceptive.  

[ezrast]

Then I take it back - there are noobs who would benefit!

(I kid, I kid )

What this ignores is the possibility of coaches from other leagues (I'm thinking mainly of the BF/Qt3 people) who might have teams they could bring in that aren't strictly in that zone.

Also, it should be said, it is good for everyone if I bring in my feeder team that's over 1400, because it is my shitty Khemri. 

Good point; I hadn't thought about it in conjunction with relaxing the f13-only restrictions (because that's another change I'm not so hot on, but I digress).

[Megrim]

Ok so here are my proposed rules for Season 7. Discuss them and I'll post the signup thread by the end of January.

Teams:
Teams from any previous f13 leagues are eligible to compete including gimmick leagues, D&M league, Masters and the feeder league.
Teams which played their most recent match in a regular season have no TV limit.
Teams which played their last game in any of the other f13 leagues have a TV limit of 1400 including cash and injured players. They must have at least 11 players on the roster (this can include injured players).
Teams from outside f13 league may join as long as they meet the TV limit for other f13 league teams as above. In addition I reserve the right to refuse entry to teams that appear to have been farmed.
Chaos Edition teams are allowed.

Coaches:
Competitors must have an f13 account and must join the f13 Bloodbowlers Steam group. They do not have to be active on the forums but are encouraged to post their match reports and join in the discussions.
Steam name and BB Coach name must be provided when signing up.

Timescale:
Each league day will last for 9 days. This should give coaches with widely separate timezones at least one weekend to organise their match.
At the time limit all games that have not yet been played will be forfeited as a 0-0 draw.
Extensions will only be allowed if a match has been definitely arranged and will take place within a day or two of the deadline. If the match does not go ahead as planned then it will be forfeited.

Matches must be uploaded to BBManager before they will be validated. This should be done by the winning coach or by either coach in the case of a draw.

The league structure will be decided once signups are final. It will take the form of a championship with a playoff and failoff post-season cup. Number of divisions and format of the playoffs etc will be determined by the number of teams.

Sounds good to me.

[eldaec]

If anyone wants to talk to the guys on the other forums and find out if they want to play, I suggest we worry about any possible transfers if we  establish they actually want to merge.

I can't see many people bringing their other-forum team over unless there is a full merger, since if they join our league they won't be able to play in their own.

[Falconeer]

IainC list of propositions is fine by me. And I'll be playing with the usual crippled girls.

[luckton]

For S7, my Norse G6 crew will fly again.  I just got my heavy hitters the skills they need to be true heavy hitters, and they're ready to roll some heads down the pitch.

[Modern Angel]

I'm switching to Chaos Dwarves and I'm staying at TV 1000. :D

[satael]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=h9pr4KOPQqI 

[Megrim]

Heh, Goblins.

One thing that I have thought of, which may warrant some discussion, is team editing pre/post game.

I play in another league (on fumbbl) and one of the mechanics that is part of standard operation is a 'Ready to Play" button, that locks your team until after the next game is finished. What this does, is prevent the minmaxing pre-game shenanigans of "oh I'll just fire a player here and a re-roll there to not let that guy have any inducements against me". There could be an issue here, because some teams have a tendency to stockpile cash, and can afford to juggle expenditure more easily than some others.

Now, while this is not a massive problem with the f13 league (and arguably, not a problem at all), this has been more or less standard practice for the top competing teams for some time now. Having realised, however, that other leagues lock this out raised a question about the practice in my mind.

As far as I know, there is not way to implement a lock in the Cyanide version, but perhaps a Gentleman's Agreement may be in order on this.

Thoughts?

[Ingmar]

At what point do they lock it out, I'm a little confused? Like, I fired my deathroller for the playoffs, would that be allowed/not allowed in FUMBBL?