Star Trek: Into Darkness

[Ingmar]

Time travel is such a horrible crutch for Star Trek EVERYTHING EVER, they really should avoid it.  

I had to look at the URL to know who that was. The last Doctor I ever saw wore a striped suit with parsley attached to it.   (Actually it was either him or the curly-haired asshole, I don't remember the order.)

I'll make an exception for him, though sure, as well as Time Bandits and Bill and Ted.

[Venkman]

Well, yes. But the impression I got was that you thought the entirety of the Borg in First Contact was modelled on Aliens, whereas I'm saying it was just that one sequence and the use of a Queen with everything else having already been established in the series (what they looked like, how they moved in that slow plodding way, the regen chambers, the synthesis of droid and organic tech like they were doing with Data, etc).

Because, ya know, it matters. Or something

[Samwise]

The thing with slowly infesting/assimilating the Enterprise was also a lot more organic and Aliens-y and a lot less like the Borg from TNG.

I feel like if the Borg from TNG were going to assimilate an entire ship, they'd grab it in a tractor beam, drag it right into their giant fucking cube ship, and slice it up with lasers to extract the useful parts with maximum efficiency.  Remember the very first time the Enterprise met the Borg, how the first thing the Borg did was carve a core sample out of the saucer section and pull it out just to see what was in there?  That's what makes the Borg scary -- they are huge and faceless and powerful, and as far as they're concerned every other species is raw material to be processed.  They aren't quick or sly or sneaky because they don't need to be.  Having them creep and spread around like a Zerg infestation is missing the point.

[Trippy]

That's because the main Borg cube was blown up and it was only the remnants in the escape sphere that were able to transport onto the Enterprise before it too was destroyed.

[Ironwood]

The thing with slowly infesting/assimilating the Enterprise was also a lot more organic and Aliens-y and a lot less like the Borg from TNG.

I feel like if the Borg from TNG were going to assimilate an entire ship, they'd grab it in a tractor beam, drag it right into their giant fucking cube ship, and slice it up with lasers to extract the useful parts with maximum efficiency.  Remember the very first time the Enterprise met the Borg, how the first thing the Borg did was carve a core sample out of the saucer section and pull it out just to see what was in there?  That's what makes the Borg scary -- they are huge and faceless and powerful, and as far as they're concerned every other species is raw material to be processed.  They aren't quick or sly or sneaky because they don't need to be.  Having them creep and spread around like a Zerg infestation is missing the point.

Thanks.

It was in Voyager that they started fucking around with the Borg and turning them into basically nanites.  It didn't really work and made it all techno-organic and shite.  I far preferred them when they were just a total and utter fucking rip off of Cybermen.

And it might not matter.  In any other thread.  Beyond the Star Trek one.

[Samwise]

That's because the main Borg cube was blown up and it was only the remnants in the escape sphere that were able to transport onto the Enterprise before it too was destroyed.

The concept of an "escape sphere" itself in the context of the Borg is fucking stupid.  It only makes sense if you have the concept of a Queen who is more important than the drones.  Which is itself fucking stupid.  It's like an Escher painting of missing the point of the Borg.

And yeah, I think we can blame the Voyager writers for most of it.

[Venkman]

I don't remember much Voyager/Borg action except with the one where they started by beaming a proton torpedo onto the ship (was that the one with the guy from the 27th century that gave the doctor the improved SAG rates holo emitter)?

I feel like the Borg were screwed with too much to call First Contact "off". There was the Hugh episode which made them apparently easy to humanize. There was the Lore episode which made them both stupid and easily corruptible. There was the run-by-kids TOS-throwback episode in Voyager. Heck, as much as I enjoyed Best of Both Worlds, and consider it the turning point of TNG itself, they deviated from that by only partially assimilating Picard (which was obvious even before they stated it in First Contact). I don't recall any DS9 episode with them save the premiere. And while some of the books were fun, particulary Peter David's Vendetta, that matters as much to lore as SW EU stuff.

I agree the Queen was just wimping out and going with "bad guy" in lazier movie making than "the bad guy is technology run amock across a communist paradise". But the vibe I got was less Aliens than it was ants. And because they never were any more consistent than "techy bad guys who speak in echo" in any of the series leading up to that point, it didn't bother me.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Doctor Who is the Nightmare Before Christmas of this generation.

[Ironwood]

Was Vendetta that one that brough the Planet Eater from ToS back to kill the Borg ?  Because that one was wank.

But the vibe I got was less Aliens than it was ants.

 

[Ironwood]

Doctor Who is the Nightmare Before Christmas of this generation.

What does that mean ?

[Lakov_Sanite]

Mediocre to good but with "cult" following that is anything but small.  It's something people watch to get cred with their respective subcultures that has little to do with any sort of quality.

[Ironwood]

Um.  OK.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Much as I enjoyed buffy and angel as well, they were also incredibly overrated.  Things we enjoy, this scifi stuff and star trek in particular, are not generally good shows. They entertain us and fill a need for fantasy but if you take a couple steps back there are wrought with plot holes and bad acting, unconvincing situations and other problems that would not be tolerated in other genres.

Doctor Who is particularly offensive because in america it's got a factor of "foreign coolness" to it that kids here use to express how much cooler they are for watching something on bbc america.

[Samwise]

Mediocre to good but with "cult" following that is anything but small. 

My Little Pony would be the canonical example these days.

[Ingmar]

And I will e-stab anyone in the face who says Nightmare was only mediocre.

[Simond]

Well, yes. But the impression I got was that you thought the entirety of the Borg in First Contact was modelled on Aliens, whereas I'm saying it was just that one sequence and the use of a Queen with everything else having already been established in the series (what they looked like, how they moved in that slow plodding way, the regen chambers, the synthesis of droid and organic tech like they were doing with Data, etc).

Because, ya know, it matters. Or something

The Borg Queen was just the Cyber Leader in a fetish suit, of course.

Doctor Who is the Nightmare Before Christmas of this generation.

Go fuck yourself, dickbrain.

[01101010]

Much as I enjoyed buffy and angel as well, they were also incredibly overrated.  Things we enjoy, this scifi stuff and star trek in particular, are not generally good shows. They entertain us and fill a need for fantasy but if you take a couple steps back there are wrought with plot holes and bad acting, unconvincing situations and other problems that would not be tolerated in other genres.

Doctor Who is particularly offensive because in america it's got a factor of "foreign coolness" to it that kids here use to express how much cooler they are for watching something on bbc america.

Don't even blink. Blink and you're dead.

[Venkman]

Was Vendetta that one that brough the Planet Eater from ToS back to kill the Borg ?  Because that one was wank.

But the vibe I got was less Aliens than it was ants.

 

Yea. But I admit to not knowing the what "wank" means in this context. Hated it or loved it?

Reason I said "ants" is because Aliens aliens move really fast whereas ants seem to sorta plod along. Maybe there's more similarity? Now I'm remembering how much I thought the opening dream sequence in First Contact reminded me of Aliens face huggers. Damn you pop culture!

[Abagadro]

I thought you meant the Woody Allen cartoon.

[Mrbloodworth]

What is wrong with you people. Its like a bunch of hipsters invaded.

[Fordel]

What is wrong with you people. Its like a bunch of hipsters invaded.

F13 was a bunch of hipsters before hipsters were hipsters.

[Trippy]

It all stems from schild and his béret-wearing film critiques

[NowhereMan]

Was Vendetta that one that brough the Planet Eater from ToS back to kill the Borg ?  Because that one was wank.

But the vibe I got was less Aliens than it was ants.

 

Yea. But I admit to not knowing the what "wank" means in this context. Hated it or loved it?

This thread is wank. Also equating Dr. Who with Buffy and Angel? I don't even

And all this in the Trek film thread, it's the escher of nerd culture

[sickrubik]

And I will e-stab anyone in the face who says Nightmare was only mediocre.

I am ASSUMING we are on the same side, for I agree and I will stab.

[Lantyssa]

And I will e-stab anyone in the face who says Nightmare was only mediocre.

I'll give them to Oogie Boogie.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Nightmare was very good but it got put on a really high pedestal but I can't be the only one thinking Dr Who is overrated...really? I mean yes my opinion and all, maybe I'm that one guy but it really does nothing for me and I LIKE scifi.

[sickrubik]

Nightmare was very good but it got put on a really high pedestal but I can't be the only one thinking Dr Who is overrated...really? I mean yes my opinion and all, maybe I'm that one guy but it really does nothing for me and I LIKE scifi.

Be careful of the "and i LIKE scifi". Sci-Fi has always been... pretty much my favorite genre, and I've always liked Doctor Who. There are plenty of die hard Sci fi fans that do as well.

Seriously, it CAN just come down to taste.

Except for Nightmare. You're stupid and should feel bad if you don't like it. But then, it's one of my most favorite things ever.

[Surlyboi]

Slamming Nightmare and Who?

I will rip off your head and hire your favorite actor to shit down your neck.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Slamming Nightmare and Who?

I will rip off your head and hire your favorite actor to shit down your neck.

Overrated is different from slamming, I like nightmare but come on.

[Sir T]

Thanks.

It was in Voyager that they started fucking around with the Borg and turning them into basically nanites.  It didn't really work and made it all techno-organic and shite.  I far preferred them when they were just a total and utter fucking rip off of Cybermen.

And it might not matter.  In any other thread.  Beyond the Star Trek one.

Sorry. The "assimilation by biting you to turn you into a zombie stinging you with Nanites that turn you into Borg" started in First Contact. The Borg hadn't even turned up in Voyager at that stage.

And the Borg were at their best by being a unified FORCE of cybermen that chewed you up and then spat the bits of you they didn't like out. That started eroding when Picard was grabbed. Basically the Borg began losing it at the end of Part 1 of TBOBT because the writers just felt that every enemy has to have a face/leader, and could not comprehend that this was a time to break the rules.

Ironically, Doctor Who made the same mistake with the Daleks when they were became basically the puppets of Davros/the Dalek Emporer. There's no menace in a bunch of puppets.

First contact was a bad zombie movie with "alcoholic historical figures doing it for the money" to give it edge. It was terrible, and I've rarely been so let down by a movie in my life.

[Ironwood]

Ironically, Doctor Who made the same mistake with the Daleks when they were became basically the puppets of Davros/the Dalek Emporer. There's no menace in a bunch of puppets.

When did this happen ?

I can't think of a single story where Davros wasn't entirely fucked over by his own creations.

[Simond]

Nightmare was very good but it got put on a really high pedestal but I can't be the only one thinking Dr Who is overrated...really? I mean yes my opinion and all, maybe I'm that one guy but it really does nothing for me and I LIKE scifi.

So you're saying that the longest running TV sci-fi series in the entire world is only popular because it's a fad?

Really?

I mean, I know that there's an awful lot of Trekkies butthurt ITT because J. J. Abrams made Star Trek actually popular rather than just 'popular with Trekkies' popular but there's no real need to project that elsewhere.

E: Davros and the Daleks fucked over each other equally, iirc. 4thDoc might not have outright destroyed the cyborg pepperpots back in 'Genesis' but having Davros around turned them from "United, all-conquering Empire" into "squabbling factions being fucked over by each other" right up until 7thDoc kicked the Time War into high gear by giving Davros a certain stellar manipulator and saying "Don't throw me into that Briar Patch use the Hand of Omega".

[Ghambit]

Trek movies popular with Trekkies are ones that'll actually stand the test of time, whereas Trek done for the current pop masses are just a moneygrab.  They're not movies in the sense of art, they're just diversions from current events.  The latter is what Abrams is good at.

I'll watch the movie because I'm sure it'll be good entertainment, but in the back of my head I'll still be wanting.

Also, didnt Abrams say his next Trek film would likely involve Khan in some way, with a twist?  I'm hearkening back to before his reboot came out and he was being interviewed.  If I had to guess he's merging the Mitchell and Khan tropes into one movie, which honestly sounds intriguing to me.  Both characters are similar in a lot of ways.

[Simond]

Trek movies popular with Trekkies are ones that'll actually stand the test of time, whereas Trek done for the current pop masses are just a moneygrab. 

{citation needed}

[Teleku]

And I will e-stab anyone in the face who says Nightmare was only mediocre.

So am I ok if I just say it was bad then?