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Author Topic: Pacific Rim  (Read 210214 times)
Teleku
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Reply #490 on: July 24, 2013, 02:00:39 AM

Come to think of it, I can't remember the name of anybody in all of Evangelion except for Shinji, either.  Maybe it's endemic to the genre.   awesome, for real

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Reply #491 on: July 24, 2013, 02:20:05 AM


And the storytelling was equally insulting. No mere coincidence I see this movie on the same day I read this Slate article. I want to rip the whole movie to disk and replace any scene with people with the equivalent scene whatever Top Gun through Armageddon scene they used. Worse, I felt less like they were knocking off characters as much as they were knocking off actors, from Steve Buscemi through Dwayne Johnson.

Interesting article, thanks.

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Reply #492 on: July 24, 2013, 03:03:23 AM

Come to think of it, I can't remember the name of anybody in all of Evangelion except for Shinji, either.  Maybe it's endemic to the genre.   awesome, for real

y u no fap to rei / asuka :(


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SurfD
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Reply #493 on: July 24, 2013, 04:28:52 AM

Come to think of it, I can't remember the name of anybody in all of Evangelion except for Shinji, either.  Maybe it's endemic to the genre.   awesome, for real

y u no fap to rei / asuka :(

Probably because even to horny teenage guys, both Rei and Asuka are so fucked up mentally you just dont want to go there.

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Reply #494 on: July 24, 2013, 05:08:21 AM

I hate to be THAT GUY but....


Can we stop comparing this to Neon Genesis Evangelion because you know, they are nothing alike.  There are giant robots, there are monsters, end of similarity.  Whether you like the movie or not, comparing this to NGE just sounds like parents complaining about "the rock and roll" all sounding the same.

If anything it's more like the super robot shows of old, mazinger, getter, dangaioh and a dozen more giant robot anime that were all about robots punching monsters.

Totally...if you ignore that both are about giant mechs fighting monsters and that the drift is a lot like the pilot/Eva interface...oh wait...they are a lot alike.

Did you even watch the show? Evangelion pilots are inserted into a tube which acts like an artificial womb and are inserted into the spinal column of the eva's. Eva's by the way are not giant robots, they are organics beings artificially created using the cells of the angels(monsters) and put in armor. At least in the original series there was ONE episode where two pilots had to fight in tandem as in two robots side by side, there is no dual piloting at ALL.

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Reply #495 on: July 24, 2013, 05:16:13 AM

There is dual piloting in the new Eva movie, with more coming in 4.0.

I can't remember any of the characters names; I was thinking of them as Jax, Stringer, Rei, and Ron Perlman.

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Reply #496 on: July 24, 2013, 05:17:22 AM

Wasn't there some twisted mother-child thing in NGE that really fucked with your psyche?  I can't recall as it's been 13 years since I saw any of it.

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Reply #497 on: July 24, 2013, 05:19:24 AM

Wasn't there some twisted mother-child thing in NGE that really fucked with your psyche?  I can't recall as it's been 13 years since I saw any of it.

The main character has his EVA grown from his dead mothers brain/tissue/whatever so it's as though he was inside his mothers brain.

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Reply #498 on: July 24, 2013, 06:19:51 AM


And the storytelling was equally insulting. No mere coincidence I see this movie on the same day I read this Slate article. I want to rip the whole movie to disk and replace any scene with people with the equivalent scene whatever Top Gun through Armageddon scene they used. Worse, I felt less like they were knocking off characters as much as they were knocking off actors, from Steve Buscemi through Dwayne Johnson.

Interesting article, thanks.


It'd be more interesting if the guy had actually read Syd Field who, years before Blake Snyder, described not only a three act structure but the points within the three act structure where certain events should occur, what those events were and what page/minute they should occur in - exactly the same crimes that this guy is accusing Snyder of. For example, Syd Field's three act break down:



Note the page numbers. This if from Fields book that was first published in 1979!

At the dawn of the 21st century, man was reading articles on the internet that read exactly the same but about a different Screenwriting Guru and using different film examples. Like, say, The Matrix: its script is 128 pages long and the end of Act 1 - the commitment to act (when Morpheus offers Neo the pills) takes place exactly on page 30 (the first turning point according to Field) while the midpoint happens on page 63 when they go to see the Oracle. Summer blockbusters have been screenplay by numbers for decades and nothing has particularly changed since 2005.

But anyway, Pacific Rim: I'm with Schild, Ironwood and K9. It's pretty much ID4 - with the only difference being that this film didn't piss me off like ID4 did.

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Reply #499 on: July 24, 2013, 06:42:09 AM

Those comparisons to 2005 are only going to get worse.

Behold, the screenplay analyzer algorithm. (Forbes says "Computer" but you know what it is.)

http://www.forbes.com/2006/12/03/hollywood-dvd-writers-guild-ent-sales-cx_kw_1201wharton.html

Because in the future all the best art will by by mathematical formula, not human creativity. It's more fiscally sound that way.

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Reply #500 on: July 24, 2013, 08:44:38 AM

Finally watched this movie last weekend. When we walked out of it the first thing out of my buddies mouth was man that was good but it reminds me of ID4. Overall I enjoyed it for what it was but then again I like monster movies like the old Godzilla movies.
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Reply #501 on: July 24, 2013, 10:17:09 AM

Engels, Wayabvpar, my son and I went to see it today. 3d and Imax. Wish there was a none 3d Imax. Sound was deafening. My son liked the movie.  I thought it was a bit too similar to NGE.

I arrived minutes too late to prevent the purchase of 3D tickets  Heartbreak

I enjoyed this more than I expected to (since I expected to hate it), but it had a lot of problems. As jgsomeone said earlier, this would have been a great sequel. I would have loved to see the story of the first kaiju...from 'we detected some sort of anomaly' to 'holy shit, a giant monster is ruining SF' to 'wow, we finally killed it...hey, what is that glowy thing under the ocean?' with a final scene of the second kaiju coming out of the Breach. Maybe some mention of Drift/jaeger tech experiments. Then you can basically pick up from there. The kaijus were goddamned terrifying, and watching them wreck cities was the best part of the movie, so I really wanted more of that.

IMAX 3D is just giant waste of time and money. The screen gets blurry if you turn you head more than 20 degrees, the glasses are cumbersome and annoying, the 3D effects are dull and uninspired, and it is TOO. FUCKING. LOUD. I am in my 40s and half deaf, and it was jarringly painfully loud. I felt sorry for Furiously's poor kid who hasn't been deafened by years of aural abuse yet. Also, I am so very tired of super fast action scenes that prevent the viewer from keeping track of what the fuck is going on. Seriously, they might as well just put up static for 5 minutes and then run text down the screen explaining who won.

I don't get the Ron Perlman love. Maybe because he is the Beast to me, and not the guy from SOA (since I don't watch that), but both him and his character were terrible. I usually love me some Charlie Day, but he was totally wasted. I also love me some Idris Elba, and he did the best he could with what he was given.

This could have been a FANTASTIC movie. Or pair of movies. Wasted opportunity here. It was watchable, with some fun moments, but overall very meh. Pity.

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Reply #502 on: July 24, 2013, 10:32:50 AM

If you only think of Pearlman as Vincent from Beauty and The Beast and SOA you need to review his IMDB a bit.  At the *very* least you should recognize him as Hellboy.

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Reply #503 on: July 24, 2013, 10:40:02 AM

Counting only his screen appearances (not video game or cartoon voice work) I have seen less than 5 of his movies/shows (Pac Rim, Enemy At The Gates, Blade II...and not much else. Never saw Hellboy). He is the guy who comes in to do the low budget sequel (or TV show) after the big star fucks off for greener pastures.

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Reply #504 on: July 24, 2013, 11:22:11 AM

he first hellboy was great and you do yourself a disservice not having watched it.

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Reply #505 on: July 24, 2013, 11:26:23 AM

Those comparisons to 2005 are only going to get worse.

Behold, the screenplay analyzer algorithm. (Forbes says "Computer" but you know what it is.)

http://www.forbes.com/2006/12/03/hollywood-dvd-writers-guild-ent-sales-cx_kw_1201wharton.html

Because in the future all the best art will by by mathematical formula, not human creativity. It's more fiscally sound that way.


The idea that formal organization somehow makes art necessarily worse is a silly one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonata_form

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Reply #506 on: July 24, 2013, 01:28:44 PM

I really don't remember, 2 week after the movie my mind is wiped ^_^
Did you let your thoughts drift?

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Reply #507 on: July 24, 2013, 02:03:12 PM

Those comparisons to 2005 are only going to get worse.

Behold, the screenplay analyzer algorithm. (Forbes says "Computer" but you know what it is.)

http://www.forbes.com/2006/12/03/hollywood-dvd-writers-guild-ent-sales-cx_kw_1201wharton.html

Because in the future all the best art will by by mathematical formula, not human creativity. It's more fiscally sound that way.


The idea that formal organization somehow makes art necessarily worse is a silly one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonata_form

Formal organization is not what the program does.

Counting only his screen appearances (not video game or cartoon voice work) I have seen less than 5 of his movies/shows (Pac Rim, Enemy At The Gates, Blade II...and not much else. Never saw Hellboy). He is the guy who comes in to do the low budget sequel (or TV show) after the big star fucks off for greener pastures.

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Reply #508 on: July 24, 2013, 02:39:45 PM

The idea that formal organization somehow makes art necessarily worse is a silly one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonata_form

Sonata is one (extremely unpopular) structure out of a possible dozens. The Save the Cat formula is a dominant form out of very few mainstream choices.

Save the Cat is more a formula than a structure. The title itself refers to an extremely specific type of character moment  - it's not something like "after 30 minutes the characters should be established and the main conflict introduced" it's "in your movie your hero should rescue a cat from a tree."

It's true that there's often nothing wrong with playing within an established structure, but that's very different from almost every work using the same specific formula.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2013, 02:42:54 PM by Margalis »

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Reply #509 on: July 24, 2013, 03:16:03 PM

Wasn't there some twisted mother-child thing in NGE that really fucked with your psyche?  I can't recall as it's been 13 years since I saw any of it.

The main character has his EVA grown from his dead mothers brain/tissue/whatever so it's as though he was inside his mothers brain.
No, the Eva was grown from the legs of the local analogue of God. It only had the deliberately trapped soul of his mother, who sacrificed herself so that when her husband triggered the end of the world she'd hand the reigns of the apocalypse to her widdle boy while she rode out the destruction as an immortal monster.

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Reply #510 on: July 24, 2013, 03:18:31 PM

I thought it was the dead mom of each kid inside each eva they piloted?

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Reply #511 on: July 24, 2013, 03:38:41 PM

Wasn't Rei a clone of somebody or other?  Or there were like a whole bunch of Rei clones?

Over and out.
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Reply #512 on: July 24, 2013, 04:35:06 PM

Can we talk about the REAL travesty in this movie?

The god-fucking-awful Australian accents.

Finally a movie has actual Australian characters with meaningful parts and in a town littered with Oz actors they go with an American and a Brit.

FUCK YOU Del Toro.   Everytime those two started talking I wanted to fucking rip my ears off. Bloody awful.


Outside of that I enjoyed the rest of the movie, the robot fights were excellent (what transformers should of been, instead of the epilepsy inducing shite they were), my 12 year old thought it was kinda crap.  Ohhhhh, I see.

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Reply #513 on: July 24, 2013, 04:41:54 PM

Read a nice article on the visual language of the movie that underscores how I feel about the characterisation (and others' negative perception of it). It's not going to change anyone's mind that is happily determined to dislike the movie, and if you do feel that way, feel free to skip the article. Either way the writer is capable of putting forth some pro-PR arguments that have critical merit especially given the extreme detail and world building Del Toro is reknowned for. Some good stuff in the comments, too - an interesting observation about shoes/feet being a significant metaphor/leitmotif throughout the movie and have 'heart' symbolism to two specific characters.

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Reply #514 on: July 24, 2013, 04:57:08 PM

The idea that formal organization somehow makes art necessarily worse is a silly one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonata_form

Sonata is one (extremely unpopular) structure out of a possible dozens. The Save the Cat formula is a dominant form out of very few mainstream choices.

Save the Cat is more a formula than a structure. The title itself refers to an extremely specific type of character moment  - it's not something like "after 30 minutes the characters should be established and the main conflict introduced" it's "in your movie your hero should rescue a cat from a tree."

It's true that there's often nothing wrong with playing within an established structure, but that's very different from almost every work using the same specific formula.

Yes.

Also:

Quote
Summer movies are often described as formulaic. But what few people know is that there is actually a formula—one that lays out, on a page-by-page basis, exactly what should happen when in a screenplay.

Few people? Which few people are this? Seriously? What a brain-dead comment to make. The whole article is inane and shallow.

Quote
How many times can you watch a young man struggle with his problems, gain new power, then save the world? It’s enough to make you wonder: Is overreliance on Snyder’s story formula killing movies?

Yeah, never happened in movies - or drama, or fiction, or whatever, before.

Quick, someone go back in time and kill Joseph Campbell... and the entire history of storytelling.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2013, 04:59:52 PM by lamaros »
Venkman
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Reply #515 on: July 24, 2013, 05:34:30 PM

Arguing about the formula used to narrate a Hero's Journey is as old as stories about a hero's journey. So what? The reason this shit comes up repeatedly is because a new generation of people need to be taught it. Otherwise they go about assuming two guys in a Gremlin are singing a brand new pop opera song. Knowledge is not automatic.

It's pretty much ID4 - with the only difference being that this film didn't piss me off like ID4 did.

Which is funny because I had a similar reaction with the opposite impression.

My only real problem wth ID4 was hacking the alien code. Meanwhiile the government and the people didn't act completely unbelievably. Armaggedon was similar for me. I'm ok with all of it except the idea of digging 800 feet into Texas to blow a whole asteroid (woulda been slightly less hand waving if it was just a deflection move). But there too the government and people didn't act completely unbelievably, and the tech wasn't complete sci-fi. I don't need accuracy in my movies. I just need them to be consistent within themself.

PR had everyone acting stupidly from the start, with the totally wrong and most wasteful solution to a rather easy problem, and with really stupid backup options and no real logic to how the world worked, along with a whole bunch of completely wasted stuff they introduced but then never really used. Which is a shame, because a better reason for giant robots coulda made for a movie that was good beyond just the fight scenes.
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Reply #516 on: July 24, 2013, 05:52:09 PM

Quote
Yeah, never happened in movies - or drama, or fiction, or whatever, before.

Quick, someone go back in time and kill Joseph Campbell... and the entire history of storytelling.

You are vastly underestimating the level of specificity and rigidness of "Save the Cat."

Yes, it's true that a lot of fiction follows a rough Hero's Journey. That's very different from a script that includes the exactly specified story beats, in the specified order, on the specified page number.

The Hero's Journey is not a formula, it's an observed pattern. It arose from the observation that heroic stories shared cross-cultural similarities. It's not "this is how you write good fiction." "Save the Cat" is just a faddish approach from a terrible screenwriter that caught on, no different from a fad diet or fad business method.

I mean, the guy has multiple rules on what the logline of a movie pitch should always include. That's a far cry from the observation that many Hero's Journey stories include feminine temptations.

Quote from: Darniaq
The reason this shit comes up repeatedly is because a new generation of people need to be taught it. Otherwise they go about assuming two guys in a Gremlin are singing a brand new pop opera song.

If anything the whole idea of the monomyth is that across culture and time people will reproduce stories in similar fashion without needing to be taught, because that sort of story is somehow hardwired into humanity.

People being taught the Hero's Journey as a formula to consciously follow is a recent phenomenon.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2013, 06:04:38 PM by Margalis »

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Reply #517 on: July 24, 2013, 05:57:57 PM

As soon as Campbell wrote it down and storytellers started using it as a checklist, it became just another formula.  Especially since none of the myths he analyzed to derive it followed it nearly as closely as the works based on it have.

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lamaros
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Reply #518 on: July 24, 2013, 06:03:49 PM

FakeEdit: Yeah, I mentioned Campbell because I just thought solely associating Sydney with the Hero's Journey movies was a limited discussion for an article that pretends to give a better background than that. I don't deny that Campbell's observations-come-formula were less specific (and raises many other discussion points).

Arguing about the formula used to narrate a Hero's Journey is as old as stories about a hero's journey. So what? The reason this shit comes up repeatedly is because a new generation of people need to be taught it. Otherwise they go about assuming two guys in a Gremlin are singing a brand new pop opera song. Knowledge is not automatic.

True, but that doesn't mean the writing wasn't poor. If anyone is perceptive enough to think something is formulaic - ie they can understand the concept of a formula - then it's implicit that it is following a formula. I don't believe there is that large audience that is aware enough to recognize formula but also stupid enough to not think it is deliberate.

Also it's pointless hyperbole to assert that an 'overreliance on Snyder’s story formula' is 'killing movies'... and if you're going to write an article that is meant to inform the ignorant then do it with some expertise: solely discussing Snyder for too many Hero's Journey movies is extremely shallow discussion.

Unless the whole thing is meant to be ironic - the article is shit because it followed a formula? But then, of course it's shit, it followed a formula for writing a screenplay, not an article... and a formula can't save bad writing anyway.

Anyhow, I'm probably in a bad mood because I'm bored and wouldn't mind something that is actually interesting to read... apologies.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2013, 06:06:25 PM by lamaros »
Margalis
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Reply #519 on: July 24, 2013, 06:09:04 PM

I don't think you can argue that "Save the Cat" is killing movies unless you know how many people consciously follow the formula and how many of them produce bad movies.

It is however safe to argue that the author of "Save the Cat" was not a good screenwriter, that many great movies don't follow his formula, that many lousy movies do, and that the book is the worst of the faddish "how to write a screenplay" books out there. At least the McKee stuff is presented as suggestions and observations you may find useful and not a rigid formula.

Personally from what I gather these screenwriting books tend to bought mostly by hopefuls, I'm not sure how much of an effect they have on industry professionals other than maybe altering their mindsets before they get in the door.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2013, 06:11:54 PM by Margalis »

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Reply #520 on: July 24, 2013, 06:17:56 PM

Can we talk about the REAL travesty in this movie?

The god-fucking-awful Australian accents.



Australia has an accent?  why so serious?

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Reply #521 on: July 24, 2013, 06:34:34 PM

My only real problem wth ID4 was hacking the alien code. Meanwhiile the government and the people didn't act completely unbelievably. Armaggedon was similar for me. I'm ok with all of it except the idea of digging 800 feet into Texas to blow a whole asteroid (woulda been slightly less hand waving if it was just a deflection move). But there too the government and people didn't act completely unbelievably, and the tech wasn't complete sci-fi. I don't need accuracy in my movies. I just need them to be consistent within themself.

Armageddon? Jesus christ, we've hit the bottom of the barrel. Magical space shuttles that can fly around the moon (unpossible for a shuttle), a magical asteriod that aims it's fragments at famous monuments. A cast of derpy NASA doodz, and salt of the earth oil rig workers who save the day because more magic. Showed those stuck up NASA dudes, you betcha! Every character in that damn movie was so 2 dimensional they could have fallen between the floorboards by turning sideways. Every character was like watching an actor cash a paycheck.



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Reply #522 on: July 24, 2013, 06:39:42 PM

We really need a thread where folks set out what their individual rules are for realism and fantasy. Because I cannot figure out why any single person here  (including me, I guess) draws the lines where they do. Say, with ID4, why draw the line at a virus and not at spaceships of that size that are doing something as grubby and incoherent as blowing up cities, which really makes no sense? The cheese/thoughtful border and where your pleasures lie on either or both sides is a kind of interesting puzzle.
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Reply #523 on: July 24, 2013, 06:42:56 PM

An Accounting for taste?

Surely you jest.

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Reply #524 on: July 24, 2013, 06:56:54 PM

Khaldun - already responded in the other thread, but...

Jeff Goldblum is entertaining, and to a far lesser degree Will Smith is as well. Once again, didn't actually say ID4 was amazing or anything. It was simply more watchable to me than ID4. Will Smith + Jeff Goldblum is more interesting to me than the minor parts Charlie Day and Ron Perlman played in PR. At NO point did I say anything in ID4 was reasonable. Quit putting words into peoples mouths. I don't think anyone argued that it was some piece of reasonable sci-fi.
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