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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  MMOG Discussion  |  Guild Wars 2  |  Topic: Mudflation. Are they listening? Or just putting some oil on the water.. 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: Mudflation. Are they listening? Or just putting some oil on the water..  (Read 7302 times)
Secundo
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on: November 20, 2012, 04:40:14 PM

The recent world event has hardly gone unnoticed by anyone playing GW2. Especially the introduction of a mudflation model to a game that was advertised as having a stat cap on top level gear.
After reading threads with over 10k posts and more than 100k views on the official forums, the public outcry over the bait&switch that ArenaNet pulled, seems to have produced.. something.

Today I got an E-mail from A-net with a survey asking me what I thought about the recent event. Of course I told them it was rubbish and amateurish and...

But what do you guys think? Is this an honest move from the live dev team or just another version of smoke&mirrors?




"Klingons do not allow themselves to be probed" -Mr Worf
amiable
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Reply #1 on: November 20, 2012, 05:16:44 PM

Guild wars suffers from the same problem every MMORPG suffers: the player base that is most passionate, interested and committed to the game provides feedback that is literally poisonous to the overall game.  It's weird as a developer to have to listen to the people who are NOT as dedicated/interested in the game, but that is really what you need to do.  No one wants a gear grind for a pvp/wvw oriented game save crazy poopsockers.  When they complain that they "have no more progression" or "ran out of content" you need to take what they are saying with a big grain of salt.
Kageru
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Reply #2 on: November 20, 2012, 05:22:53 PM


The "Lost Shores" event has pretty much dismissed my assumption they had a clue. Some of the game design mechanics are interesting, such as level capped zones, dynamic events and lack of a trinity and suggested they thought deeply about the structure of the game. But now I think those ideas only worked due to slow iteration during the design phase.

I think mudflation is probably inevitable. MMO players are a lot more fickle, love their virtual carrots and the game is more expensive / has a richer PvE game they're going to want people to remain engaged with. It would have been nice if they had come up with a new mechanic here but oh well. And since WvW isn't balanced at too close a level, and SPvP is immunized, I don't know I even consider it a huge deal unless it gets to the WoW levels of all gear being obsolete every 6 months.

Is a man not entitled to the hurf of his durf?
- Simond
murdoc
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Reply #3 on: November 20, 2012, 05:49:23 PM

The Lost Shores weekend is where GW2 lost a bit of it's lustre for me and I responded to the questionnaire that way.

Have you tried the internet? It's made out of millions of people missing the point of everything and then getting angry about it
Venkman
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Reply #4 on: November 20, 2012, 06:42:32 PM

I read the marketing for Lost Shores and as soon as I saw "one time" occur twice for the same overall event, I put it in the same category of "not for me" as most of the dungeons in this and other recent MMOs. Nowadays I fit gaming into my life, not the other way around.

And I'm ok with that. I've never been an uber achiever even when I did have the lifestyle to support exclusive gaming. There's a lot in GW2 for me to enjoy. I don't need to be part of every corner of it any more than I needed to be raiding the upper tiers of WoW or doing any of the Flashpoints in SWTOR or any of the RvR in DAoC. I enjoyed all of those and many other games without much care for the kinds of things other players were doing in that same game.

Ubers will affect how the game evolves because when they're the only ones talking, the Devs have no choice. Surveys are nice, but the fulfillment rate on those generally skews to the ubers anyway.

But putting that group aside, games change. They chase the business models that work for them. If GW2 changes into something I don't recognize because they focus on rewarding the players spending $50/mo on gems, them surviving as a company is more important than whether I personally agree with them  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

It is the way of things.
Ingmar
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Reply #5 on: November 20, 2012, 06:54:22 PM

...you played DAOC without RVR? whyyyyyyyy

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Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Furiously
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Reply #6 on: November 20, 2012, 06:56:22 PM

I think it's a combination of fractals being cockblocked big time and gear that is two ilvls higher which means only the catassyist of the catasses will end up with it.

rk47
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Reply #7 on: November 20, 2012, 07:25:32 PM

I've already dismissed Fractal from my playtime.
It's just way too rigid for my liking. I have to stick to the same group if I want to progress up in the difficulty, if I ever missed a night with them, I'd slow down their progress or get left behind. But don't think 5 levels is enough, apparently, this shit goes up above 20. (!!!!!!)
So currently the guild is split between High Fractal, Medium, Low Fractals, and people who farm classic dungeon for gold to sell.
World v World isn't gonna draw anyone without the rewards. The only time I spent on WvW is when the guild mesmer offered portal ups in Eternal Battleground for the Jumping Puzzle chest.

EDIT: Checked my mail, didn't get the survey. I guess Oceanic players can suck it, huh?
« Last Edit: November 20, 2012, 07:28:07 PM by rk47 »

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Furiously
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Reply #8 on: November 20, 2012, 07:31:20 PM

Fractals take way too long. Having to do four at a time to advance really makes them a pain.

Modern Angel
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Reply #9 on: November 20, 2012, 08:12:47 PM

Three at a time.

I love Fractals, but I'm in a regular group in a high functioning guild. I'm tackling them casually, so maybe I get left behind. Whatever. I just don't care about chasing the carrot. They're fun until they're not and the gear just isn't powerful enough, even with the new stuff, to make me obsolete. I can't get het up about the gear or the Fractals.

The event and new zone, though, are abortions. I only got to do Phase Three, as I had a family emergency Friday and Saturday, but it was awesome... until the TWO reinforcement phases. Those were awful. And it should've been rerun that evening for people to do. Have the chest lootable only once. But no... they failed on making the chest non-exploitable and made the event once and once only. That's bullshit for people who missed it. Years and YEARS of lessons about length of events and exclusivity of time windows just disappeared. It's inexplicable.

I don't get the new zone. Why would I go there? I've heard better gear, but so what? Like, honest to god, so what? I get leveled up and down, mobs are either hard or not hard no matter what your gear is... it kind of ties into my not being upset about the gear creep (though I can understand the objection on principle). Gear doesn't matter when it comes to stats. There is nothing rad looking there. I do not need more greens to drop. Ergo, I do not give a fuck about this zone filled with mobs which take half again as long to kill.
rk47
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Reply #10 on: November 20, 2012, 08:14:30 PM

Sorry, Fractals go up to 4 on higher difficulty. I did FDS-2 and got surprised by the 4th world. Talk about a rude surprise.

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Ingmar
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Reply #11 on: November 20, 2012, 08:23:19 PM

I don't get the new zone. Why would I go there? I've heard better gear, but so what? Like, honest to god, so what?

Money. That's all. There are exactly 3 resources that matter in this game. Money, skill points, and those fucking way-too-rare WvW tokens, and money is the most important. More yellows/oranges = more precursors = more money.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
rk47
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Reply #12 on: November 20, 2012, 08:28:23 PM

Got the survey finally, time to give them a piece of my mind!



*CLICK*



 swamp poop

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Shatter
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Reply #13 on: November 20, 2012, 09:23:18 PM

Event sucked and I made sure the survey reflected that.  I could care less if they had an event as 1 time, but FFS don't hand out uber loots to people at it...the word retarded doesn't even encompass how dumb an idea that was.  If you want to create a bitter playerbase then yeah keep fucking over people who can't attend your one time events.
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Reply #14 on: November 20, 2012, 09:35:02 PM

I haven't gotten a survey, but since I spent Sunday puking every 30 min. with a bad case of food poisoning I wasn't able to do anything anyway. Maybe they know enough to only send it out to accounts that logged in during it.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
veredus
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Reply #15 on: November 20, 2012, 09:58:55 PM

I just got my survey and I missed the event, maybe random, I don't know. I did however tell them how dumb I thought the event was and that because of the event I would be unlikely to refer friends. Basically said how dumb it was to have a one time even then give away awesome loot at the one time event. Also I don't like how the Fractals lvl system works and made sure to let them know that too. Just make it so you can go into the highest Fractal available to anyone in the group and it would be prefect. Right now people have to keep running the lower ones over and over helping friends/guildies and not progressing or they leave their friends behind. Neither one is very cool.
Venkman
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Reply #16 on: November 20, 2012, 10:47:56 PM

Yea pretty much the same. The gear progression thing doesn't feel like nearly as much a reversal of promise that having a once-and-never-again and be-there-for-three-hours-minimum that this event was. Shit, I've seen Straights turn over multiple times in 3 hours  awesome, for real

...you played DAOC without RVR? whyyyyyyyy
I played all of four months. It was painfully slow and boring, with the only redeeming factor to me being a playable MMO that was not-EQ1. By the time it launched I had already burned out on AC1 and UO and just wanted something that didn't incur XP loss and deleveling. But that aside, back then, PvP to me was an FPS game. Eventually I learned it can be cool in an MMO, but it took Planetside and then all the way to WoW BGs for me to see that.
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Reply #17 on: November 21, 2012, 12:42:11 AM

I haven't gotten a survey yet, even though I was present at every one-time event, completed the investigation line, etc. I just think they aren't prepared to do massive events like this. The IDEA of a new high-level zone is good (fucking Orr and the Plinx train needs to die already), but... this is not it.
Sorry, Fractals go up to 4 on higher difficulty. I did FDS-2 and got surprised by the 4th world. Talk about a rude surprise.
The '4th world' is the end boss on every even difficulty level. It doesn't take too long, and the rewards are quite good. Fractals are absolutely great IMO, though they highlight the need for a solid LFG system. One of the devs said a better LFG is in the works, but that can mean anything. I mean, even LOTRO's LFG system would be 'better', but that doesn't mean it'd be 'useful'.  awesome, for real

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Reply #18 on: November 21, 2012, 12:46:52 AM

So, hearing elsewhere that it can take 2-3 hours to get through 3? Is that true?

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Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Zetor
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Reply #19 on: November 21, 2012, 12:51:21 AM

2-3 hours is WAY too much in my experience. The average time was 15-20 minutes per fractal for me in a 100% pug (so 1 hour worst-case for a set of 3), and it was the first time for all of us.. plenty of the usual PUG issues too like disconnecting, failing the jump sequence, etc. This is at levels 1-2 + end-boss, haven't really progressed further (I'm content scrubfarming the lower fractal levels later if it turns out that they start to become adventures in dickpunchery later on)

e: I misread the post /failboat
« Last Edit: November 21, 2012, 01:00:09 AM by Zetor »

rk47
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Reply #20 on: November 21, 2012, 01:02:06 AM

One guy disconnecting is the end of that group 5 man strength too.
At least at this state of the game. Cause the guy gets kicked out of the instance...and usually LA is overcrowded and you joined in an overflow.
You cannot rejoin THAT overflow to enter the instance once more...

So yeah........ derp.
I do agree the dungeon is fun. But the caveats and hassle of gathering 'correct FDS level' party is shit.
I want to explore all the fractals and just forget about this dungeon.

A guildie picked up the vial of mist last night - his celebration turned sour when he realized he needed 250 T6 mats and 50 ectos just to craft the back piece.
Just for a back piece upgrade.  why so serious? And it's Bind on Pickup. So it's useless if you don't craft it.

Good Grind A.net. GG.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2012, 01:04:10 AM by rk47 »

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Rasix
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Reply #21 on: November 21, 2012, 01:14:01 AM

Maybe they know enough to only send it out to accounts that logged in during it.

Nope.  But one of the questions is "did you log in during the event"? And then followed by a "why not?"  I made sure to let them know they were going in a direction I wasn't comfortable with.

-Rasix
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Reply #22 on: November 21, 2012, 07:19:16 AM

Good Grind A.net. GG.

That's really the thing. There's still this retarded grind attached to anything engaging in the endgame. Which shouldn't surprise me; I played GW1 and the only way that their "no grind" philosophy was ever justified was because you weren't grinding for better gear in terms of stats. You grinded like a motherfucker in that game. You do here. It's mostly optional, but I know I'm never going to get a Legendary, for instance, or one of these back pieces. I don't have that in me anymore. Still love the game, but I'm playing it precisely as I did GW1: log on, do some things, keep my expectations for my toon low.
Kageru
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Reply #23 on: November 21, 2012, 08:15:19 AM


There needs to be something to work towards for the achievement oriented player. And it needs to be an effort to get so they feel satisfaction on completing it. Ideally something you don't absolutely need to compete so you can opt out if this is not the flavor of grind you want.

I can't really think anyone else has a better answer for the MMO end-game.

Is a man not entitled to the hurf of his durf?
- Simond
Venkman
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Reply #24 on: November 21, 2012, 08:39:06 AM

Yea I consider it core to the genre, with the real question being how the curve works.

Unlike now-you-must-raid of most early MMOs, here there's some more options, particularly Karma farming to upgrade from Exotics. Sure it's uneven because the vendors are tied to world events that range in difficulty due to either zone design (getting to Grenth) or encounter design (the zone-wide Balth event versus just suffering through the transforms during Melandru). But unlike dungeon'ing, you're pretty free to jump in or out, like any DE.

I like it personally. There's a barrier there but it's not as arbitrary as the dungeon dedicated groups where players create variable rules requiring certain builds/gears/etc.

In my opinion, all this goes back to the "wall" in all MMOs. Once you level cap and are equipped in all the gear you solo'd to get, you either need to shift to a different mindset which includes looking and waiting for groups to continue progressing, or you need to switch to the other game (from PvE to PvP or vice versa).
murdoc
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Reply #25 on: November 21, 2012, 09:45:29 AM

I'm working towards 100% the world and doing as much WvW as I can during my playtime. Once a gear grind starts to affect those things, I'll move onto something else until they make it easier to acquire that gear. I like what they did with the karma jugs, but as soon as those were added a guildie said 'watch out for a new tier of gear'. It's almost like they included the karma jugs so that it WAS easier to get exotics and then they could justify the new tier by saying '%% of our playerbase has exotics - we needed to add this'.

 Tinfoil Hat I know - but I just do not get the design decisions they are having right now.

I don't think the Karka event wouldn't have been so bad if it hadn't been shoved into a single weekend only - but for someone with some limited playing time, it's rather hard to justify 3-4 hours in the middle of a Sunday, especially when I had no idea it would even last that long after I had spent a chunk of my Saturday exploring the Fractals and the new zone.


Have you tried the internet? It's made out of millions of people missing the point of everything and then getting angry about it
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Reply #26 on: November 21, 2012, 10:23:42 AM

They made a lot of mistakes with this one.  Newbie weekend on top of a high-level one-time event.

The gear itself will take most people forever to acquire.  I'm okay with that.  It's like GW1 in that respect.  The stat bonus really isn't that significant, especially not compared to the effort required and auto-leveling knocking it down.  I've done just fine in all Magic Find rares, so I really, really don't care.

But it seems a lot of people get upset if they can't have the Best right away.  Damn Achievers.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
amiable
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Reply #27 on: November 21, 2012, 12:02:47 PM

My friends and family group just ran our first level 1 fractal last night and got absolutely destroyed by some giant invulnerable golem spewing instakill mines all over the place.  We are pretty experienced folks who have raided at least at a rudimentary level.  Am I missing something here, they seemed insanely hard.
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Reply #28 on: November 21, 2012, 01:47:19 PM

The ones I've done all have some gimmick you need to figure out.  Once you deal with that, they're fairly easy.  I've only been through a few, however, so I don't know if they're all like that.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Shatter
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Reply #29 on: November 21, 2012, 03:00:35 PM

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/black-lion-trading-company-weekend-sales

Hope lube is on sale, my butt's still sore from last weekends event I didnt attend. 
Ingmar
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Reply #30 on: November 21, 2012, 03:08:04 PM

2-3 hours is WAY too much in my experience. The average time was 15-20 minutes per fractal for me in a 100% pug (so 1 hour worst-case for a set of 3), and it was the first time for all of us.. plenty of the usual PUG issues too like disconnecting, failing the jump sequence, etc. This is at levels 1-2 + end-boss, haven't really progressed further (I'm content scrubfarming the lower fractal levels later if it turns out that they start to become adventures in dickpunchery later on)

e: I misread the post /failboat

Interesting. The numbers people on are reporting over on BF are really different. Stuff like "in a good pug 90 minutes, if they have no clue, 2-4 hours?"

EDIT: Sounds like it is just a couple of them in particular that cause problems?

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Zetor
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Reply #31 on: November 21, 2012, 03:25:29 PM

Possibly... I haven't played all of them yet. It's also possible I got lucky (since I only did 2 pugs, so the sample size... isn't very big).
- underwater: This one was about 15 mins on average between the two runs. It's basically three trash packs (which we murdered in record time due to having powerful underwater skill combinations + lol whirlpool), a pretty tense underground swim sequence, and a (boring hp-bucket) boss. We actually all died in the swim part on the level 2 run, but someone made it to the boss, so we respawned there, yay! I think the second run was under 10 minutes, actually.
- underground: OK, the last boss here took a while until we got the bucket part down, so it was probably closer to 30 than 20.
- cavern: This one was decently fast too; zerg event to start, running from fire, mini-boss fight, more running, end boss. 20 mins?
- asura: This was the longest by far (in no small part due to the lazer puzzle and the jumping - both are harsh on pugs). About 30 mins.
- colossus: I actually don't remember how long this one took, I was pretty absorbed with carrying the hammer / trading it off with someone else in the pug. It felt shorter than the asura one, though.
- icy place: I don't remember much fighting here at all except for the two bosses and maybe two groups of svanir. 20 mins?
- end boss: the trash didn't take too long, and after the obligatory wipe on the boss, we didn't have too many problems there either.

Ingmar
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Reply #32 on: November 21, 2012, 03:28:44 PM

The dredge one and 'cliffside' (I think that is the one you mention with the hammer?) got called out as taking up to an hour each.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Zetor
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Reply #33 on: November 21, 2012, 03:39:39 PM

Well, my 30min assessment is mostly based on the duration of the chocolate orange buff still being active at the end (I'm a compulsive consumer... what can I say, a stack of 250 costs like 2 silver, and it's almost 30% free magic find!  why so serious?) when I checked on the 'faster' fractals; I ate those at the start since apparently zoning into a fractal kills your consumable buffs. I really didn't feel the hammer one was that long, but we were pretty efficient at getting the seals down + that was in the level 2 group which didn't have any problems with the jumping portion either. Ditto with the dredge, we had someone who did it before who made it go really smoothly (we got the ice elemental boss at the end instead of the dredge, if that counts).

Phred
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Reply #34 on: November 21, 2012, 05:11:09 PM

One guy disconnecting is the end of that group 5 man strength too.
At least at this state of the game. Cause the guy gets kicked out of the instance...and usually LA is overcrowded and you joined in an overflow.
You cannot rejoin THAT overflow to enter the instance once more...


This happened to us yesterday and even worse, we completed it with 4 people and the fucking thing wouldnt mark itself complete. WTF Anet. Buggiest shit ever.
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