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luckton
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Reply #105 on: January 26, 2013, 06:55:41 AM

Anyone see the change to Zhonha's Hourglass?  They removed the Chain Vest and added a new item:

Quote
Seeker's Arm-Guard
Item Cost: 860
Recipe Cost: 125
+30 Armor
+25 Ability Power

UNIQUE Passive: Killing a unit grants 0.5 bonus Armor and Ability Power. This bonus stacks up to 30 times.

Zhonha's now has 120 AP, up from 100, to reflect the additional power that a fully stacked Arm-Guard would give and then some.

Also the recipe cost for Trinity Force is now 3, down from 300.  Yes, fucking 3.

"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."

"Tuning me out doesn't magically change the design or implementation of said design. Though, that'd be neat if it did." -schild
HaemishM
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Reply #106 on: January 26, 2013, 09:32:30 AM

Wait... Triforce is only 3 GOLD? As in 1, 2, 3? That's the combine cost? Or am I completely misreading what you are saying?

luckton
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Reply #107 on: January 26, 2013, 12:06:38 PM

Wait... Triforce is only 3 GOLD? As in 1, 2, 3? That's the combine cost? Or am I completely misreading what you are saying?

Previously, had you built the three items to forge together the Triforce, you would have to pay a final fee of 300g.  They reduced that final construct fee to 3g.  You're still going to spend 3900g to build Zeal, Sheen, and Phage individually, or you can buyout the Triforce for 3903g.

"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."

"Tuning me out doesn't magically change the design or implementation of said design. Though, that'd be neat if it did." -schild
Setanta
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Reply #108 on: January 26, 2013, 03:15:00 PM

Anyone see the change to Zhonha's Hourglass?  They removed the Chain Vest and added a new item:

Quote
Seeker's Arm-Guard
Item Cost: 860
Recipe Cost: 125
+30 Armor
+25 Ability Power

UNIQUE Passive: Killing a unit grants 0.5 bonus Armor and Ability Power. This bonus stacks up to 30 times.

Zhonha's now has 120 AP, up from 100, to reflect the additional power that a fully stacked Arm-Guard would give and then some.

Also the recipe cost for Trinity Force is now 3, down from 300.  Yes, fucking 3.

Arm Guard on Cho might be an interesting path to take.I took a break from playing and wen't back to Cho last week, more kills with him tanking than I could pull off with Cait etc.

"No man is an island. But if you strap a bunch of dead guys together it makes a damn fine raft."
HaemishM
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Reply #109 on: January 26, 2013, 08:38:46 PM

Wait... Triforce is only 3 GOLD? As in 1, 2, 3? That's the combine cost? Or am I completely misreading what you are saying?

Previously, had you built the three items to forge together the Triforce, you would have to pay a final fee of 300g.  They reduced that final construct fee to 3g.  You're still going to spend 3900g to build Zeal, Sheen, and Phage individually, or you can buyout the Triforce for 3903g.

Sounds like I need to play Jax more.

Rasix
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Reply #110 on: January 28, 2013, 09:25:27 AM

So, how many games until they officially place you now?  I'm so far 4-3 but already my ELO is visible to me on my summoner profile (1175).

I have to say, so far bot lane is super easy.  The mids, however, are mechanically a bit better than I am.  Plus, I did the stupid thing of trying a champ for the first time in ranked. "Hey, it's a counter!"  awesome, for real  Didn't play it too badly, however.

edit: I'd say this season hasn't been great to Jax.  I haven't seen an effective one in forever. 297 gold isn't going to change that.

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Reply #111 on: January 28, 2013, 10:21:36 AM

I have not had a bad game as Jax this season. He has been a beast for me, even in games where I might start slow. By end game, he's just un-fucking-stoppable.

Kail
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Reply #112 on: January 28, 2013, 05:16:44 PM

So, how many games until they officially place you now?  I'm so far 4-3 but already my ELO is visible to me on my summoner profile (1175).

I have to say, so far bot lane is super easy.  The mids, however, are mechanically a bit better than I am.  Plus, I did the stupid thing of trying a champ for the first time in ranked. "Hey, it's a counter!"  awesome, for real  Didn't play it too badly, however.

Allegedly, Elo placement occurs after ten games, but you can see it after five (you're probably playing with other unranked players at this point).  Game allegedly thinks I'm 1300, which is bullshit, and now I'm terrified to go back into ranked for fear that the other shoe will drop and it'll shotgun me back down into the 3-digit range.

I seem to have decent luck on support, but the only time I played ADC I got dunked hard.  Ended up going something like 0-5-2, and spent the entire match listening to my team bitch about me.  Jungle I think I'm getting better at, still not so comfortable with counterjungling, though.  Top and mid I can do kind of okay, but I'm still having trouble either going too aggressive and dying to towers or going too passive and ignoring the other player completely.

Gave Thresh a spin, holy shit, is he fun.  He's like a crappy Blitzcrank and a crappy Amumu rolled into one, and his passive is the kind of thing that makes the old school RPG gamer in me drool ("there's no upper time limit on games, so this guy theoretically has UNLIMITED POWER!!!!!").
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #113 on: January 28, 2013, 06:05:34 PM

If you notice though, each subsequent soul diminishes in power gain, which is kind of a cop out.

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HaemishM
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Reply #114 on: January 28, 2013, 06:42:48 PM

Well, look at that. After a really good run, I've gone above .500 for season 3... 53-52.

Rasix
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Reply #115 on: January 28, 2013, 09:52:36 PM

So, how many games until they officially place you now?  I'm so far 4-3 but already my ELO is visible to me on my summoner profile (1175).

I have to say, so far bot lane is super easy.  The mids, however, are mechanically a bit better than I am.  Plus, I did the stupid thing of trying a champ for the first time in ranked. "Hey, it's a counter!"  awesome, for real  Didn't play it too badly, however.

Allegedly, Elo placement occurs after ten games, but you can see it after five (you're probably playing with other unranked players at this point).  Game allegedly thinks I'm 1300, which is bullshit, and now I'm terrified to go back into ranked for fear that the other shoe will drop and it'll shotgun me back down into the 3-digit range.

I think that's the case.  After my last game it still shows unranked on post game, and I had a game with a first time ranked player last one.  Some of the players have been ranked though (I think), one Ryze claimed to have gotten "this low" during a recent losing streak.  

Anyhow, somehow I crushed Panth with Kayle top.  Guy got kills in late team fights, but he was 60 cs down. It was a bit dicey early, but once I got Nashor's, he just melted.  Of course his final words on the matter were "gg team sucks".   I did have a brain fart and buy Sunfire on Kayle for tankiness.  A warmogs would have likely been better, but I felt somewhat constrained to armor and HP since they had a Panth, Trynd and Cait.  There was this hilarious sequence when we were mulling around baron, when our Lee showed bot:  their Sona flashes forward and wiffs an ult, Cass wiffs her ult, we run, Panth misses his drop, and then we turn and ace them.  I wish I was recording it.. it would have made a nice video of "meanwhile.. in placement matches".

Kayle is gonna get nerfed soon, I think.  She's getting played by everyone.

edit: Heh, yah, everyone in my last game was "unranked".

Well, look at that. After a really good run, I've gone above .500 for season 3... 53-52.

Grats, mang. Keep working on those death totals. Your ADC play seems to be winning for you.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 10:06:44 PM by Rasix »

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HaemishM
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Reply #116 on: January 29, 2013, 07:49:53 AM

Actually, I can thank a lot of jungle play this season - my Mao and Mundo games have gotten really good (or at least good for this level). Teams really don't seem to know what to do with Mao. I love it when they focus me. I have been doing ADC better because I was sucking wind at the start of season 3. Somebody said something about buying damage over attack speed in season 3 and that's helped. I did not realize just how badly attack speed had gotten nerfed. MF is still too squishy but the Cleaver/Bloodthirster/Hurricane combo with a side helping of Zerk Greaves and Guardian Angel seems to be working for me.

I've also lucked out and gotten some really good teams against some REALLY SHITTY teams.

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Reply #117 on: January 29, 2013, 08:22:15 AM

Actually, I can thank a lot of jungle play this season - my Mao and Mundo games have gotten really good (or at least good for this level). Teams really don't seem to know what to do with Mao. I love it when they focus me. I have been doing ADC better because I was sucking wind at the start of season 3. Somebody said something about buying damage over attack speed in season 3 and that's helped. I did not realize just how badly attack speed had gotten nerfed. MF is still too squishy but the Cleaver/Bloodthirster/Hurricane combo with a side helping of Zerk Greaves and Guardian Angel seems to be working for me.

I've also lucked out and gotten some really good teams against some REALLY SHITTY teams.

Hadn't realized that ATS problem.  I was so used to building attack speed on everyone.  Cleaver/Bloodthirster just seems so good now.

Do people still prioritize IE?
HaemishM
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Reply #118 on: January 29, 2013, 08:29:01 AM

It depends on the champ for me. I think I've been going 3rd or 4th item on Cait after Doran's, Zerk Greaves and Vamp Scepter. I haven't touched it at all with MF and haven't played Graves in the last few weeks.

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Reply #119 on: January 29, 2013, 10:53:07 AM

AS wasn't that good even in S2. The fuckton of crit and bit of much-needed movement speed had more to do with the popularity of PD, whether anyone knew it or not.
Goumindong
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Reply #120 on: January 29, 2013, 01:19:53 PM

  I did have a brain fart and buy Sunfire on Kayle for tankiness.  A warmogs would have likely been better, but I felt somewhat constrained to armor and HP since they had a Panth, Trynd and Cait.  

Never really feel constrained to armor. You will always get roughly enough armor by leveling and secondary attributes of either tank items or damage items (as a bruiser or AP). Be concerned more about HP and sustain.

And always remember that Sunfire is a bad item to buy for tankiness. The upgrade cost is entirely in its passive and isn't worth it unless you need it to split push

I did not realize just how badly attack speed had gotten nerfed. MF is still too squishy but the Cleaver/Bloodthirster/Hurricane combo with a side helping of Zerk Greaves and Guardian Angel seems to be working for me.

Don't buy Hurricane, its a trap item. The attack speed bonus is both more expensive than it was in season 2, attack speed is never all that damaging comparatively*, you need a lot of on hit bonus damage to make it work, and the item is too expensive anyway with the passive alone costing like 1000 gold... which isn't worth it, especially for an ADC who may not be able to get in range to attack everyone.

For ADC's you only need attack speed items if

1) You don't have an AS self buff
2) You don't have many attack resets
3) You don't have many AD scaling spells

This means, basically, Vayne(kinda), Ashe, Kog'maw, and trist

Trist has no AD scaling or attack resets and her q is on a really long CD so she needs the AS. Ashe has only volley, Kog has his e and r, but they eat up mana too fast to be really effective, and vayne scales on AS.(but still wants AD first)

Other than that, stacking AD and Armor pen until you've got a few items is the best idea. This means for MF you probably want to go Cleaver->LW->BT->IE and maybe get an AS item in there.

*In that, in order to double your DPS you need a lot more AS than in order to double your damage with AD.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 01:27:28 PM by Goumindong »
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #121 on: January 29, 2013, 01:34:30 PM

I disagree on sunfire, while it doesn't have the pure tanky stats, having that extra damage when in the middle of a team fight can make all the difference.  It shouldn't be the ONLY tanky item you get if you're only getting one but on a full tank build it is extremely useful.

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Goumindong
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Reply #122 on: January 30, 2013, 01:44:14 PM

I disagree on sunfire, while it doesn't have the pure tanky stats, having that extra damage when in the middle of a team fight can make all the difference.  It shouldn't be the ONLY tanky item you get if you're only getting one but on a full tank build it is extremely useful.

Sunfire upgrades for 980 gold and does 40 damage/second. Assume an average of 100 MR(which is on the low side now that we have bulwark) so you're actually doing 20 damage/second since you don't have mpen.

That makes, if you're alive for 10 seconds(which is a long time) 200 damage total.

Lets say that instead of sunfire the enemy tanky dps bought Locket of the Iron Solari. He gets roughly the same amount of tank stats as you (25 less HP, 10 less armor) and gets to provide up to 230 HP in shield to his allies... and he spends less money doing it giving him an extra 500 gold with which to build more tanky or build damage.

So you're in the middle of his team doing 200 damage over 10 seconds. He presses his active and entirely negates your damage plus has 500 gold plus 10% CDR (then goes and dives onto your carry)

Sunfire cape is for pushing Randuins/Locket/Bulwark are all better in a team fight both in overall stats provided to you for the gold, and in ability to protect your team(or kill the enemy team)
Kail
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Reply #123 on: February 02, 2013, 10:51:40 PM

Has anyone had much experience with the new ranking system?  I'm nervous to touch it, and the forums make it sound like the worst thing since Hitler, so I'm wondering how accurate the whining is.

The worrying claims I'm hearing:
1) If you get 0 points and lose a match, you drop down to the previous division.  If you have 100 points, you have to win a best of 3 match to get boosted up to the next division.  So it's easier to lose rank than to gain it.  Not helping matters is the fact that everyone starts at 0 points.

2) If you drop a division, you start at 50 points.  So, if you lose your first game, you're dropped down to the previous division, and then you've got to get three or four more wins to get to the best of three match set which you then have to win to be back to where you started from if you hadn't lost one game.

3) Winning matches gives about 15 points, losing matches apparently docks something like 30?  Is this right?  I'm hearing a lot of bullshit numbers floating around, but I haven't heard anyone contradict this or any more reliable info on it.

4) Divisions are temporary, but tiers (gold, silver, etc) are permanent.  So what, you ask?  You're still matched with other players by Elo, not by tier.  So if you're in, say, platinum 5, you can intentionally lose all your matches to tank your Elo down to 50, then win fifty games in a row against bronze tier players, so you get promoted to diamond or whatever despite never even competing against another platinum level player.  Or am I reading this wrong?
Rasix
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Reply #124 on: February 02, 2013, 11:03:07 PM

Has anyone had much experience with the new ranking system?  I'm nervous to touch it, and the forums make it sound like the worst thing since Hitler, so I'm wondering how accurate the whining is.

The worrying claims I'm hearing:
1) If you get 0 points and lose a match, you drop down to the previous division.  If you have 100 points, you have to win a best of 3 match to get boosted up to the next division.  So it's easier to lose rank than to gain it.  Not helping matters is the fact that everyone starts at 0 points.


This didn't happen to me. I had zero points going into my Bronze 2 division and lost my first game.  I was, however, seeded 6th into the group, so I just dropped to 13th.

I probably would have been silver if I didn't drop my last placement match.  Can't say I care much.

Quote
3) Winning matches gives about 15 points, losing matches apparently docks something like 30?  Is this right?  I'm hearing a lot of bullshit numbers floating around, but I haven't heard anyone contradict this or any more reliable info on it.

I got 29 for winning.

This system is a bit wonky.  I'm getting paired with people in silver a lot.   Everyone seemed to be in hyper dickhead mode tonight as well.  

I'm not getting the same SC2 ladder anxiety with this system yet.  Probably because I don't exactly know what's going on.  awesome, for real
« Last Edit: February 02, 2013, 11:07:14 PM by Rasix »

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HaemishM
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Reply #125 on: February 03, 2013, 12:27:56 PM

I know I got 36 points for winning my first match, dropped two straight because of REALLY SHITTY TEAMS and then won a fourth match and was back up to 49 points. So I think those that won either got more than 15 points or there may be a sliding scale for points per victory. It's kind of a confusing system that obfuscates a lot of the stuff that one simple elo number didn't. Maybe it's to make low elo players like me not feel so bad about playing with total shitslapping crippled degenerates.

Goumindong
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Reply #126 on: February 03, 2013, 08:39:41 PM

You get points based on your real ELO. The game attempts to stick you in the proper division for your ELO. If your ELO is below your division ELO you get less LP when you win and lose more when you lose. If your ELO is above your division ELO you get more LP when you win and lose less when you lose.
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #127 on: February 03, 2013, 09:17:14 PM

You get points based on your real ELO. The game attempts to stick you in the proper division for your ELO. If your ELO is below your division ELO you get less LP when you win and lose more when you lose. If your ELO is above your division ELO you get more LP when you win and lose less when you lose.

So basically, retarded.

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HaemishM
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Reply #128 on: February 04, 2013, 09:28:35 AM

You get points based on your real ELO. The game attempts to stick you in the proper division for your ELO. If your ELO is below your division ELO you get less LP when you win and lose more when you lose. If your ELO is above your division ELO you get more LP when you win and lose less when you lose.

That is the exact opposite of the way it seems like it should work. Won't this make the lowest divisions even shittier than elo hell has always been?

Malakili
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Reply #129 on: February 04, 2013, 10:14:30 AM

I frankly don't understand why they moved to this system for solo queue anyway.  Elo is a superior ranking system in every way.  People complained about Starcraft 2's league system because there is no reasonable way to judge between players using this kind of league system, whereas a simple Elo is easily comparable.  I understand for 5v5 ranked, as they feel that they can use this as a feeder of sorts for up and coming teams to make a name for themselves.  For solo queue, it just seems like adding a totally unnecessary layer of confusion.
Goumindong
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Reply #130 on: February 04, 2013, 11:23:13 AM

You get points based on your real ELO. The game attempts to stick you in the proper division for your ELO. If your ELO is below your division ELO you get less LP when you win and lose more when you lose. If your ELO is above your division ELO you get more LP when you win and lose less when you lose.

That is the exact opposite of the way it seems like it should work. Won't this make the lowest divisions even shittier than elo hell has always been?

Matchmaking has to do strictly with your ELO and has nothing to do with the league system.

Basically everything works exactly as it did the day before except now, instead of seeing your elo, you see your league and league points.

Yea, i liked the old system better too.
HaemishM
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Reply #131 on: February 04, 2013, 12:09:06 PM

So what's your saying is it's the tits on a bull that removes the "Your elo sucks" insult?

Rokal
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Reply #132 on: February 04, 2013, 12:33:02 PM

The game placed me into Silver 1 and I was doing alright. Won 3 matches and then lost 2 really close matches. After that I had 2 really bad matches with awful team-mates and the game demoted me to Silver 2. Since then I've had a mix of wins and losses, but the quality of my team-mates has become noticeably poorer. I don't just mean that the players are worse (though there is that), but moreso that I started running into giant dicks for team-mates. I liked the old ELO system better where it felt like less was riding on individual matches and a troll team-mate couldn't significantly affect your rating.

You can't even safely queue dodge anymore when you see a team-mate last pick twitch as your ADC because you'll lose points for that too. Instead I'm forced to waste 30 minutes of my life hoping the player is one of the 5% of twitch players that aren't completely awful, only to watch him lose bot by minute 8 and end the match at 0/8. Good stuff.
Nightblade
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Reply #133 on: February 04, 2013, 12:48:19 PM

So what's your saying is it's the tits on a bull that removes the "Your elo sucks" insult?

Like that matters, the big thing today is "imma look you up on lolking and make fun of that one bad game you had"
Goumindong
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Reply #134 on: February 04, 2013, 02:02:14 PM

.

You can't even safely queue dodge anymore when you see a team-mate last pick twitch as your ADC because you'll lose points for that too.
. 1) twitch is a legit adc. He is not perfect but has been played successfully in competition recently.

2) I would bet that ranked is worse ATM because the changes have brought out more people. Invariably the people that stop playing ranked and join back with changes like this are those that think too highly of themselves. These people will invariable drop in elo because they are bad and cannot communicate.

It reminds me of a quote from another forum whereby one 5HITCOMBO was discussing his play. The comment in question was simply two quotes of his one when he was 1600 and one when he was top 500. The 1600 quote he was saying that he was better than the people he was playing with and the top 500 quote he was saying he was bad at the game
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Reply #135 on: February 04, 2013, 03:40:44 PM

1) twitch is a legit adc. He is not perfect but has been played successfully in competition recently.

I know he can be viable, but chances are that he won't be unless you're playing at a much higher skill level than anyone I'm being matched with/against.

Speaking of high skill level play, I watched this self-narrated Lulu replay from a 2.1k player that made me feel like the worst Lulu ever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZnmTpqhkA0

Using E (silence/shield) on minions just to position pix for Q pokes? Mind-blowing.
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #136 on: February 04, 2013, 03:42:51 PM

Really? First thing I did on lulu was position pix for poking, problem with it is the heavy mana drain but works like gangbusters.  Oh and when you do it in solo queue your adc tends to yell at you for taking a cs here and there.

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Rokal
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Reply #137 on: February 04, 2013, 04:19:36 PM

Really? First thing I did on lulu was position pix for poking, problem with it is the heavy mana drain but works like gangbusters.  Oh and when you do it in solo queue your adc tends to yell at you for taking a cs here and there.

Well it seems counter-intuitive. In general you almost never want to spend mana to damage minions or push up a lane, especially as support. The player in the video intentionally does both as soon as the game starts. Spending mana and a CD to silence/damage a minion seems crazy when you could save that mana/CD for champions, but it does open up a lot of opportunities to harass and effectively doubles the range of her Q.

I did have to turn off smartcasting for Q once I started doing it though, and my mana conservation went to shit. I've still got plenty of learning to do but it's a very different (and more effective) way to play Lulu than what I had been doing.
Goumindong
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Reply #138 on: February 04, 2013, 05:50:15 PM

Pushing lanes is how you win early bot lane engagements. Since most lane engagements are AA focused and will involve pushing past minion waves this guarantees that your support or ADC will have creep aggro in any sustained trade or fight.

If you don't have more minions than the enemy then they control when full engages happen and when they don't. In addition, creep advantage gives you a XP advantage which translates to level asymmetry which translates to won lanes.

The only time you don't want to have more creeps than the enemy ADC is if you can zone them. If you can zone them and the lane is pushing towards your tower you're in complete control of the lane and can continue to gain CS and XP advantages. Otherwise, until probably level 6 or so, you want to be pushing, so damaging creeps in order to line up harass is not a bad idea.

Its also stupid OP on murderbridge since once you have a chalice you're pretty much sustained you have 1500 range poke whenever enemy OR allied creeps are near

edit: IRT the thread above. This is especially true against ezreal. Ezreal can easily have his q be creep blocked which significantly reduces his DPS, he can still aa,w,aa you but the damage on w is not significantly strong enough that he wants to level it now that the AS debuff is not there. And, if there are not creeps, he can go aa,q,aa,w,aa or aa,e,aa,q,aa,w,aa which are significantly stronger combinations... But if you have the creep advantage you can likely block the q and/or shed the e damage onto a minion (and his shift AA will nearly ensure that he will take creep aggro which will be a large boon to your ability to fight)
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 05:57:19 PM by Goumindong »
luckton
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Reply #139 on: April 11, 2013, 03:03:08 AM

Health and mana pots are being capped to 5 each.  Time to bring back my Yorick with vengeance  DRILLING AND MANLINESS

"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."

"Tuning me out doesn't magically change the design or implementation of said design. Though, that'd be neat if it did." -schild
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