Time for a new Chaos Edition TV 1000 division?

[Comstar]

The average TV for season's playoff's is 1778, and over 1800 if you ignore the goblin team. Teams are now getting over 2000, and next season I would expect the play off teams to average that.  ST and DX 4 and 5 players are ever-increasing. Granted, 2000TV is just when chaos, vampire etc and other low skilled  teams become interesting.

With Chaos Edition now out and only 10 dollars, and Legendary players able to play the new teams too, I propose a new league or division for next season- Tv 1000. I can't see much chance of many new teams being able to compete in full normal league when the difference is so high, which is sad because I for one would like to see the new races in action and have a chance to play against on a level playing field - something I won't see if I use my 2100 Amazon team. I wouldn't be playing vs a Khorne team- I'd be playing against Morg, 2 more star players and a wizard.

I can understand completely how a lot of coach's want to keep improving their current team, particularly the teams that are still mid or low range and have a lot more room to grow.

I would suggest he feeder league value needs to be increased if nothing else to 1500 or 1600 - only 2 of the 16 teams in the playoffs are below 1600.

Is anyone interested in a TV 1000 division, that would play separate from the other league, and perhaps join in the playoffs, much like the Horde division did this season?

And could coach's play teams in BOTH, but with the proviso that they can only have 1 team in the play offs? That's another option.

[Ruvaldt]

I absolutely think the TV limit on imported teams should be raised to 1500 or 1600.  Just look at the pla-offs for proof that we're getting to t he point now that new teams simply have no chance of competing on a level playing field.  The only exception has been Lamaros' goblins, but goblins are one of those rare teams which actually do better when they have lower TVs and play teams with higher TVs.

I also love the idea of a division for lower TV teams, but I don't think it should only be limited to TV1000.  I think it should be for teams between 1000 and 1500.  Not only would it allow them to play against more equally matched teams/coaches, it would make the regular season more of a challenge for the more advanced teams.  It's a win/win.  

I hate playing against young teams that I think I'm just going to steamroll with the Presidents, setting them back weeks of development and not allowing them any good SPP building opportunities.  It feels cruel and it isn't fun for either of us.

[eldaec]

This season's new teams were ...

Bleating - In the QFs
Ermine Vermin - In the QFs
Wissenland Whalers - Made it to the Playoffs
Goblin Baby - Made it to the Playoffs
The Explorer's Club - Out at the group stage - forfeited several matches
Warp Cheese Disciples - Out at the group stage - New Coach
Zellar Dwellerz - Out at the group stage
Camp Town Orc Boyz  - Out at the group stage - New Coach
Ymiron's G6 Crew - Out at the group stage - Coach who had only previously entered with halflings

44% of new teams made the playoffs, and once in the playoffs, half have qualified for the quarter finals.

Of the 5 teams that didn't qualify, 3 were entering their first serious business team, and 1 missed a bunch of games because of unexpected availability problems.

I'm not convinced that the problem is teams being new.

But I have no issue increasing the TV limit for teams transferring from the feeder league. In fact I'd have no issue if were removed entirely. Inducements are fun.

[Ingmar]

I don't see any reason there should ever have been a TV limit on new teams honestly. I don't think any of us are going to do sneaky stuff to level a team up unfairly, and if we catch someone doing that we can deal with it.

[Llyse]

It's pretty cool to see new coaches and teams trickle in but I don't think we have quite the numbers for a 2nd 1000 TV division league.

I think if the TV cap for feeder league entry is increased or removed the problems new Coaches have will be reduced...

[Ingmar]

I should also say I'm totally fine with the idea of an EVERYONE STARTS FRESH season 7.

[Megrim]

I don't want to be rude, but my first impression was that this is more of a complaint about having to face large Inducement pools. This is part of the game, in my mind.

Having said that, I'm not against looking at a restructuring of our league.

[eldaec]

If people are worried about facing inducements, just fire all your good players. /shrug


I'm vaguely against anything limiting variety in the main league. Playing strong, weak, high and low TV over the season is part of the competition.

We could have a TV 1000 rule in a D&M competition if we really want it.

[proudft]

My stance has always been that I don't mind starting at 1000 and playing vs. whatever TV, because I think the inducements do a perfectly fine job of handicapping the games.  Every time this comes up seem to be in the minority with this opinion, though.  So, uh, do whatever!

I don't want people farming up uberstat teams either, but I dunno what to do about it.  Enforcing some 'you have to play X number of different people' or 'you have to play under X games' seems unwieldy and a pain in the ass, so I guess wait until it's a problem?  I dunno.

Edit: also my Whalers only got in the playoffs on a technicality; a forced draw vs. an opponent that we could not get the connection to work, and then I immediately faced him in the playoffs and lost.    I am thoroughly convinced that the Whaler's shitty (overall) record, though, is not because of any TV differential, but because I am not very good with humans.   They constantly lost in the feeder league, and they continued to lose in the real league.   

HOWEVER, if this TV issue is preventing getting new people in because they're skeered, fixing that is much more important than any other concerns, imo.  Fresh blood for the field!

[Modern Angel]

Doing a relegation/promotion type dealy would be pretty rad. More work, but rad.

Also, I'm probably going CDs next season. Suck it.

[Ruvaldt]

Bleating - In the QFs
Ermine Vermin - In the QFs
Wissenland Whalers - Made it to the Playoffs
Goblin Baby - Made it to the Playoffs

Those four new teams are not indicative of new teams in the league though.  The Ermine Vermin played in the Master's League Final against The Emperors, for God's sake and thus were pretty highly groomed.  A Skaven team can shave its TV down to 1300 and have a one-round scorer and have a chance to beat any team in the league senseless.  Goblin Baby is a goblin team, and thus actually does better when they have a high amount of inducements.  Bleating and the Whalers were both wild cards, and I plan to utterly destroy Bleating soon.

It's pretty cool to see new coaches and teams trickle in but I don't think we have quite the numbers for a 2nd 1000 TV division league.

I think the idea was to have a division within the normal league for lower TV teams.  They'd be in the same tournament, but during the group stage they'd play against one another.

[Ingmar]

Now that I couldn't get behind (doing divisions by TV). If we're going to change how we do divisions, for Nuffle's sake, do it by time zone.

[Llyse]

Now that I couldn't get behind (doing divisions by TV). If we're going to change how we do divisions, for Nuffle's sake, do it by time zone.

Divisions by f13 power ranking 

[luckton]

There are a few ways I look at this, from the sophomore's perspective:

- One way would be to modify the "max TV for new teams" rule to be relative to TV of the best (or average of the top 3-5 best) teams that are in, say 500 differential.  Example: Beardstorm! has 2170 TV.  If the max differential is 500, then the max TV for brand new teams is 1670.  Or if you averaged the top 3 teams (say 2170, 1950, and 1880 having an average of 2000), then your max TV is 1500. I'm sure someone with more sophisticated math skills than I could elaborate on this idea better.

- I do agree that the inducements do give the underdog team some unique advantages.  I don't think all of the inducements in the world will help a brand new TV1000 team overcome a TV2300 team, but the ever-preset double-edged sword of this game is RNG and chance.  RNG could very well not screw over that 2300 team, but I speak from experience that it can happen.

- I am also cool with just doing a hard reset anyways and doing it fresh for all.  This may turn off the seasoned vets that are at the top of the hill, but a fresh start could also be tantalizing for fresh players here on f13 that have either given up any hope of beating the season vets or making it less intimidating for fresh players still on the fence of joining.

- I don't think we need a new league separate from everything else.  We already have low activity as of late with the leagues we have; another league would just complicate things, IMO.  If people are hell bent on making a new division though, I think it should allow teams that have had playtime in the public matchmaker leagues (Auld, etc.) At least this way people could work on their teams at their own leisure to prep for f13 play.

[Paelos]

I like the league as is. I wouldn't mind upping the value to enter though. A Chaos team with anything under 1400 is going to suck hard, as I can tell you from experience, since they start with jackshit for skills. This is not the case for other teams, but I can see why the feeder could be upped to 1400-1500.

As for the rest of it, the absolute only problem I ever had with the way things were, was that the winning team wasn't retired upon winning automatically. I don't believe in "defending" titles in a game like this where so much is it doesn't start both sides at square 1.

[Ruvaldt]

I really like that idea of retiring championship teams, now that you mention it.

[Llyse]

I really like that idea of retiring championship teams, now that you mention it.

I'll retire Alive Not Dead as soon as I win 

All of these are pretty good suggestions, I'm just hoping we continue to get good turn outs for Season 7

[Ruvaldt]

It's pretty amazing that we've been going strong for two years.  Some of these teams have been around forever.  I can understand why it might be so daunting for newcomers.

[Ingmar]

I'll be playing something new win or lose after this anyway.

[Ulysees]

To be honest I am fine with an unlimited TV entry from the feeder league but if we start new I will just be rolling Lizards again which is the team I am strongest with and until you have block throuhgout your Saurus line with shitty skink handling early doors lizards are a pain in the arse to play so would prefer not to have to go through that again.

If coaches can play whatever team they want with however much development they can get before a season starts then I think that levels the field anyway and then if a team is underdeveloped before season start then that is on the coach.

I like the Eldaec suggestion for a fresh tv1000 D+M tourney though.

[Modern Angel]

Well, let's back up a second. If we're going to do "Chaos really need to be at least 1400 but Dwarves are okay out of the gate and Goblins need low TV blah blah blah" that's not something I like. Because Chaos is *supposed* to be shitty out of the gate. Some of that good out of the gate/bad out of the gate stuff is backed into what little bit of balance there is.

[IainC]

I'm not a fan of hard resets because some teams just aren't fun to play until they've had a season of development first. In general I believe that between inducements, TV bloat and the uncaring hand of Nuffle, there's as much balance between veterans and rookies as you'll get in this game - and I most certainly do not believe that a league full of TV1000 teams is balanced.

If I'm the commissioner for the next season then I doubt that I'll be insisting on a reset unless popular sentiment is overwhelmingly for it. I'll be likely to revisit the requirements for transition between the feeder league and the main league but other than that I'm not expecting to make any sweeping changes to the format.

On the subject of seeding, I'm not convinced that timezone based divisions are a good idea. It means that the main league will be pretty inflexible with who can play who and will end up with a lot of the top seeds in the same division - Ingmar. Teleku and Drogg for example. I think that the 9 day weeks we've been having are largely fine for matching schedules and the extensions and delays we've had in season 6 have been more commonly due to technical issues and personal availability than anything else.

Let's see how it goes for the rest of this season and whether Falconeer wants to take up the reigns again for the next one.

[avaia]

Just start a new league?

[avaia]

This season's new teams were ...

Bleating - In the QFs
Zellar Dwellerz - Out at the group stage

Pretty sure we were both in the league last season, at least I know I was.  I did make the playoffs each year, though!

[Ruvaldt]

Zellar Dwellerz are new, but you're right, Bleating shouldn't count in that equation.

[avaia]

Nuh-uh!  See http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=21698.0 

[Ruvaldt]

You're right!  I got them mixed up with Ironwood's Skaven.

[HaemishM]

Zellar Dwellerz are new, but you're right, Bleating shouldn't count in that equation.

No, this was their second season in the main league.

[eldaec]

You're right!  I got them mixed up with Ironwood's Skaven.

Ironwood's Itchers are also not new.

[Ruvaldt]

You're right!  I got them mixed up with Ironwood's Skaven.

Ironwood's Itchers are also not new.

What season did they play in?  I didn't remember them from seasns 2 - 5.

[Ingmar]

4, I think they skipped 5.

[Megrim]

Okay, so with the end of the current season rapidly (ahahahahahaha) approaching, should we do a vote on a Chaos Edition restart of the league, or are we happy to carry on as normal? Is it a waste of time to ask this?

[Ingmar]

Given flagging interest both here and at Broken Forum I think maybe Iain and/or Falc should put their heads together with Jasper over there and talk about a league merger?

[Llyse]

Given flagging interest both here and at Broken Forum I think maybe Iain and/or Falc should put their heads together with Jasper over there and talk about a league merger?

Broken Forum?!

My PC is out of action until December 16th but will be excited to grind more feeder league matches!

[Ruvaldt]

I'd rather not restart everything, but a merger would be fun.  A transfusion of new blood could be what the league needs.