Chris Roberts Back in your wallet - STAR CITIZEN

[lamaros]

I'm not sure if Mr B knows what 'invested' means. His return is clearly linked to a 3000% increase in the amount of 'everything is great' and arguing with other posters.

[Margalis]

"Newtonian" by itself doesn't really mean anything.

You can make a newtonian system feel not-newtonian by tweaking the values and outputs. It may not feel newtonian to stop on a dime but if you have the right amount of thrust in the right direction that is newtonian physics.

If the game is just pointing a mouse and your ship flies towards the mouse in a standard predictable way it's not interesting, whether that is "newtonian" or not technically. The thing about steering a ship is that it's typically not done by pointing - the difference between "go here" and "turn left." It's like the difference between controlling Diablo on PC vs console - on PC if you want to move left you click to the left, on console you push the stick to the left.

When people think about "newtonian" flying they think about controlling the ship by applying forces, not about pointing to a spot on the screen and the ship automatically orienting. I don't like click-to-move for games where you control a character but it's even worse when you control a vehicle - to some degree a person navigating a space is click-to-move but that's just not how vehicles work.

I think that's the fundamental dissatisfaction with "chase the mouse."

[KallDrexx]

I still think caring about newtonian is dumb.  People claim they want newtonian physics because it's realistic (as people have stated here it's not exactly fun in its purest form) but honestly, I highly doubt that by the time we have reliable space ship technology where people can shoot the shit out of each other that anyone is going to manually aim anything.    In that fact (as much as people here probably hate to admit it) Eve is probably the most realistic indication of what real space combat is going to be like.

So if you are already sacrificing realizism you might as go for combat that is actually fun.  If that means no newtonian physics then fuck newtonian physics.

[Venkman]

Yea, we get to space with Star Wars or Star Trek style close-in dogfighting as a method, we deserve whatever curbstomp we get from the aliens who spacefight the right way

[ajax34i]

Actually, as far as I know "Newtonian = your ship has some inertia and you can disable assisted control and fly in one direction inertially while shooting sideways or backwards" and "Non-Newtonian = your ship handles as an airplane in atmosphere or a submarine in water."  My perfect Newtonian system was Independence War 2: Edge of Chaos, and it had assisted control that you could disable if you wanted to.  With assisted on = fly somewhat like an airplane (no banking to turn, though); with assisted off = fly like the space shuttle in space (whichever direction you're burning the main engines, that's the way you're accelerating).

In any case, I want Newtonian physics because I've had enough of EVE's submarines and SWTOR's airplanes.  But I don't want raw Newtonian, I want assisted control.  Just no banking in order to turn, please, is my only requirement.

[Lucas]

So, I've just finished another session of AC, that lasted about 55 minutes  , during which I managed to arrive to Wave 7 (the one with the Elite Vanduul called "Priest"). Had a much more fun and interesting experience (although don't expect E:D , of course) flying with these settings:

"Relative mode" - on (ctrl-f...basically, it feels a lot less "follow the green dot and click")

Comstab - off

Mouse sensitivity at 2 or 7; of course this may vary depending on your mouse. I have a pretty standard logitech one, like those that come bundled with a keyboard.

While I also own a Hornet and a 300i, so far I've been flying only with an Aurora to get the feeling of everything, and it's really a flying bus :P

[rk47]

Rationalization engines engage, maximum thrust!

[Lucas]

Obligatory "thank you" letter by Chris Roberts in relation to the Arena Commander release:

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/13925-Arena-Commander-V08-Thank-You

Plus, here's the May monthly report:

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/13918-Monthly-Report-May-2014

Another positive thing to report is performance: I was quite worried about my aging computer, especially in light of how much stutter I experienced in the Hangar module. Instead, I tried AC with the preset "low", "medium" and "high" settings (still have to try very high) and I only experienced some slight slowdown at high.

Specs: i7-920 2.66 GHz ; 6GB RAM, Geforce 560 GTX

[Setanta]

Glad to hear that as I'm downloading AC tonight and hoping it will run on my 3yo rig. The hanger mode was barely playable due to stutter.

Probably due for a new comp anyway :)

[Falconeer]

This could help:

I was looking through the Keybindings today after installing AC, and found that Ctrl+F switches between Interactive and Relative flying modes.

Interactive mode is where the mouse aims the guns as well as turning the ship.

Relative mode is where the mouse only turns the ship, and the guns fire toward where the ship is facing. As far as I can tell, when the cursor is over an enemy, the guns with still Auto aim for you.

After switching to Relative in Vanduul Swarm, I found it was much easier to get kills because the ship was less "floaty" and handled more like I expected it to.

[Lucas]

Yep, for m+kb, that definitely helps; mentioned it a couple messages ago, along with disabling comstab (cycle through the various IFCS modes with ctrl-caps lock).

For joystick users, now there is a great guide to create a custom XML file in order to assign the various keys (comes with a template), while we wait for official support from CIG:

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/139973/walkthrough-how-to-configure-joystick-throttle-pedals
------

I'm still toying with it, but I assigned almost all the buttons (but I'm still trying to understand if I can also assign modifiers) on my T-Flight Hotas; now, I have some more hours under my belt with the joystick, and I'm having way more fun; I'm getting better with maneuvers and everything else. I think there is indeed a deeper layer of complexity there, currently hidden by the lack of sensitivity/deadzone settings and the excessive flight assistance.

[Draegan]

So you're saying the 100s of internet neckbeards that spent 1000000$$$ on this game, before they got to see anything, over-reacted to a rushed alpha release of small portion of the game?

[calapine]

Something I just found out myself, so it might be an Internet-first F13 premiere:

If you go to your '<Star Citizen>\Launcher\LauncherData' folder there is a single file with the extension '.settings'.

Easy to guess, it stores the configuration settings of the launcher. But it also holds a few option that are not accessible via the GUI. Specifically, change the option "rememberpassword":0 from 0 to 1. Same with "auto_login":0. And finally in the option "password":null, replace the null with your password started and closed by double qutation-marks. As in "password":"MyPasswordHere"

No more to entering the password and pressing the login button!

[schild]

Downside: You have 20+GB of Chris Roberts' Space Virus on your harddrive.

[calapine]

Downside: You have 20+GB of Chris Roberts' Space Virus on your harddrive.

It doesn't copy itself so it's more a trojan that depends on social engineering and helpless patsies that click on every "pledge" pop up!  



NEW! - ORIGIN JUMPWORKS 9000 STARDESTROYER - CLICK HERE TO PLEDGE!!!!

[tmp]

It doesn't copy itself

At 20+ gbs it doesn't have to

[calapine]

Yep, for m+kb, that definitely helps; mentioned it a couple messages ago, along with disabling comstab (cycle through the various IFCS modes with ctrl-caps lock).

I'm still toying with it, but I assigned almost all the buttons (but I'm still trying to understand if I can also assign modifiers) on my T-Flight Hotas; now, I have some more hours under my belt with the joystick, and I'm having way more fun; I'm getting better with maneuvers and everything else. I think there is indeed a deeper layer of complexity there, currently hidden by the lack of sensitivity/deadzone settings and the excessive flight assistance.

Lucas, how much are you enjoying Joystick compared to KB/Mouse?

Pure mouse user now and while I sort of can control the first mode it still feels more like fighting my own ship rather than the enemy. Relative mode makes targeting easier, but having to constanly swipe the mouse to turn is rather tiresome. So overall the controlling issue is getting in the way of enjoying the laser pew pew.

[calapine]

Oh, and something else: It seems there is a major change in the relationship between 'fixed' and 'gimbaled' guns, with the latter becoming the most numerous type.

[Lucas]

Like I said, I'm getting better with the joystick, and I definitely enjoy it a LOT more than m+kb, especially after I created my own custom profile for the T-Flight Hotas X. It is not E:D, yet (and prolly never be for a fundamental difference in the approach, like we discussed earlier), but there is more complexity than what it's immediately apparent. Now they BADLY need to add sensitivity and deadzone settings. Anyway, they acknowledged the current issues yesterday in a forum post so we'll see more tweaks.  

One of Chris Roberts' objectives with Arena Commander is trying to make it a so called "E-Sport" for the SC community, along with Racing (which I think will come only when the PU is released); they would like to implement spectator modes, replays, more cameras, etc. and with the multiplayer modes they're currently planning, it surely has potential to become something like that (although it will never top the Twitch ladder, of course :P), but currently, with the "control-agnostic" approach they're taking, there is still a loooong way to go to achieve that.

EDIT: Reached Wave 10 with the 300i, making progress 

[Speedy Cerviche]

Not that random people's opinions are worth that much but on the forusm there's a lot of crying because apparently having a HOTAS is gimping yourself and in fact people are asking Roberts to "nerf mouse" (sereiously, they are). So if you feel that a joystick makes you superior to K+M congratulations, you must be really good (no sarchasm intended).

The same people are always posting about that on the war thunder forum, asking the devs to nerf mouse because they insist on using  a joystick for a game which was clearly designed to be mouse-friendly for the vast non-sim crowd (basically, FPS players)  who will never buy a joystock. I don't know why these people even play warthunder, instead of a real sim like IL-2, yet there they are, a small minority of the hundreds of thousands of players, incessantly posting, asking the devs who purposedly designed an arcade-sim, to modify their game to conform to the standards of their neckbeardy hardcore-sim world.

[Samprimary]

the biggest problem with this project (this is taking the giant step of presuming it is a competent project otherwise ofc) is the odd design process

i would have designed the gameplay fundamentals first then built ships around it. roberts is stuck crudely hammering together a gameplay concept around the ships he sold to rich nerds for millions of dollars. End gameplay will probably show it.

[Merusk]

Why would I develop the laws of a system then design around that?

Next you'll be trying to tell me to learn a coding language before I start to write the operating system for the killer game console I designed. Fascist!

[Setanta]

Played it, liked it and am thankful for the kb/m control emphasis - I do have a joystick (M$oft Sidewinder) that I bought for Starsiege and Mechwarrior 3 - but I haven't used it since those games :D

Only problem with this release is that now I'm tempted to drop cash on Elite: Dangerous as it looks to be further along and doesn't require the heavy cash investment of SC (yet?)

[Falconeer]

Be careful with Elite: Dangerous. It's great so far but it could be a trap as all the important things beside flying around and shooting are still missing and they might not have enough time or money to finish it in a decent timeframe if at all (see MechWarrior Online). My advice, as much as I love what's already there, is to wait until the price of beta (literally) drops down a bit more. Unless you want to pay strictly to support the project...

[rk47]

Yeah you should totally buy Elite Dangerous ships to fund it further and make it a complete game. 

[Stormwaltz]

While I'm primarily interested in exploration, I don't think my inner 14 year-old will let me fly around in a ship called the Freelancer DURRRRRRR. -_-

[Pennilenko]

While I'm primarily interested in exploration, I don't think my inner 14 year-old will let me fly around in a ship called the Freelancer DURRRRRRR. -_-

The prices on those ships. Holy shit. I thought 45 bucks for the alpha, beta, and finished game was steep.

[Sir T]

Actually, as far as I know "Newtonian = your ship has some inertia and you can disable assisted control and fly in one direction inertially while shooting sideways or backwards" and "Non-Newtonian = your ship handles as an airplane in atmosphere or a submarine in water."  My perfect Newtonian system was Independence War 2: Edge of Chaos, and it had assisted control that you could disable if you wanted to.  With assisted on = fly somewhat like an airplane (no banking to turn, though); with assisted off = fly like the space shuttle in space (whichever direction you're burning the main engines, that's the way you're accelerating).

In any case, I want Newtonian physics because I've had enough of EVE's submarines and SWTOR's airplanes.  But I don't want raw Newtonian, I want assisted control.  Just no banking in order to turn, please, is my only requirement.

While I agree that I-War 2 was a damn good game (still is) in terms of a flight model it was far inferior to its predecessor which really had the feel of you throwing a huge hunk of metal around space. Core to it was the way that the game assumed that you had the more powerful maneuvering thrusters on the belly of the ship (which made G-Force better to handle for the crew) so you were constantly turning the ship to make minor course corrections, which once it clicked it made the ship a joy to fly. In I-war 2 it was pretty much turning the ship like a flat airplane to get anywhere. Doable but not as satisfying. You also had the ability to use your back turrets handled well.

You can get I-War on GOG and i HIGHLY recommend it.

[Setanta]

While I'm primarily interested in exploration, I don't think my inner 14 year-old will let me fly around in a ship called the Freelancer DURRRRRRR. -_-

The prices on those ships. Holy shit. I thought 45 bucks for the alpha, beta, and finished game was steep.

P2W in action?

[Goreschach]

Winning implies you can actually play.

[Falconeer]

This video is great. Especially because it doesn't express any opinion, it just allows people to easily take a comparative look. I should crosspost it but I guess this thread has more people reading anyway.

Video comparison of Star Citizen and Elite Dangerous dogfighting.

[Miasma]

Both game's laser sounds kind of suck but star citizen sounds like a cartoon or cheap 80's sci-fi movie.

[calapine]

This video is great. Especially because it doesn't express any opinion, it just allows people to easily take a comparative look. I should crosspost it but I guess this thread has more people reading anyway.

Video comparison of Star Citizen and Elite Dangerous dogfighting.

Have seen this before and I think it's (a bit) unfair. SC comes across as slower and less involving than it feels when actually playing. Not that I could say why that is though.

Elite on the other hand looks great. Didn't know anything about it until the video but definitely going to get it now


One of the devs made made some very good responses regarding the flight model. I am not sure I can summarize them properly, but he is (one of) the person responsible for the actual physics & with an understanding of the issues, so it's  an interesting (ie. content rich) read.

He also flat out states that he 'personally cannot play the game as it was released. We had to release it to get the ball rolling...'


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[Samprimary]

He also flat out states that he 'personally cannot play the game as it was released. We had to release it to get the ball rolling...'

good. that's an honest assessment.

[tmp]

Winning implies you can actually play.

Not necessarily, Professor Falken