Chris Roberts Back in your wallet - STAR CITIZEN

[schild]

I honestly did think I answered your question, it is just in the parallel.

Aside from some minor perks and a few weeks time saved in grinding out money there will be no material difference between myself and someone who buys the game at launch.  People who bought the cheapest package will save real world money by buying it now instead of later.

I only bought the package now because I like space games, I would like a better version of EvE and I would like to support the game.

The only thing I'm going to get if it ever sees the light of day is a little satisfaction from knowing I helped a bit by supporting it.

I donate to f13 because I like the place and the vast majority of the people, there is no tangible real world benefit, it just makes me feel good to support something I like and enjoy.

If all you bought was the cheapest package to save a few dollars, then none of this really applies to you and I don't know why you threw yourself into the thick of this conversation.

[Margalis]

The Hex comparisons don't work because Hex has steadily progressed into a real game and funding stopped being the focus after the initial rounds of funding were completed.

If Hex news was 90% "here's a new way to spend money on Hex  - also we've made basically no progress on the game" then the comparison would be valid.

[Miasma]

If all you bought was the cheapest package to save a few dollars, then none of this really applies to you and I don't know why you threw yourself into the thick of this conversation.

By people I meant other people, I have spent more.  Regardless I really don't know why I threw myself into this discussion either.

[Mrbloodworth]

Bloodworth, I have a pile of 4 Magic cards + a half-full binder that I'm probably about to sell for about $4,000 by merely making a single phone call.

That is less than I've put into Magic in the last 5 years put together and I was ranked in the top 50 in Texas in 2012-2013 with nominal playing. I took down 2 $1ks, and top 32'd multiple $5k+ tournaments (and top 16'd 3 of them). I also have an incomplete cube worth about $15,000 (as in, I could sell it right now for $15,000) that I've put about $1,000 into, if that.

Don't talk about what you don't understand. I'm obviously in the minority of Magic players, but I don't see a way to arbitrage the secondary market of a space scam in an efficient way.

The only thing egregious about Magic is that bad players keep spending money instead of making it.

I Don't play games to make a profit, if you are going to make money out of it, cool. The Secondary market? You mean the LTI ship thing? I could care less about it, personally. Not sure how its really any different then PLEX, or Wow gold really. Things I do not participate in, but others find enjoyable.

If Hex news was 90% "here's a new way to spend money on Hex  - also we've made basically no progress on the game" then the comparison would be valid.

There has been progress. But I'm starting to think you are one of those people who things frequency of posts on a forum = Time has speed up. You like to outright look at progress on this game, and dismiss it, why would anyone try to convence you otherwise? That's not my job.

If all you bought was the cheapest package to save a few dollars, then none of this really applies to you and I don't know why you threw yourself into the thick of this conversation.

That applys to me as well, because my pledge was for two people. Again, you guys are talking to the wrong people, and attributing some sort of zealot status, when it ends up more as some sort of projection.

[Paelos]

I love that this has turned into a Hex v. Star Citizen defense of which idea is less silly.

Currently: both still silly.

[Mrbloodworth]

How much are those pack of Hex cards again? Because, for me, the Magic/Hex/Card games are the most egregious in terms of money. I mean, its right there in the rule system that you have to continually spend money to be competitive, not just to play, but to compete. But you don't see me trolling threads about it. To each his own.

I played Magic early on when it came out (Unlimited-Fallen Empire). When I quit and sold off my cards I made back probably around 3X what I had paid. My brother who had started playing shortly before me and had a Black Lotus and all the Moxes had an even bigger return on his investment obviously. Hex is a roll of the dice in that respect but the early gameplay looked good. Before the Kickstarter had ended we were able to see Twitch streams of games actually played through to completion. If (and admittedly it's a big if) the game follows a similar path as MTG, it could end up being a fun game to play for a few years but also a decent investment a few years down the road when it's time to cash out. I'm pretty confident that even if game doesn't hit it big, as long as it doesn't tank completely I could at the very least break even or make a small profit off my account.

Cool, I'm glad. Have fun. I don't troll people for playing it. Its not my thing. I Pledged to a game with no monthly fee, a single player game, and personal, modable servers.



Anyway, you guys have fun. I'll leave you all with this again:

I'd just like to note. Its not the people actually interested in this game, who are shitting up the thread.

[Lucas]

Since I've been (probably) the most vocal source of fundraising info lately, I guess I owe you guys an apology if you felt this was obnoxious or just free advertisment; like I said, if it helps to calm the waters a bit, I'll gladly stop. Eventually, there will be a game to talk about too (yeah, I know, I'm naive :P).

As you might have noticed in other threads, I like posting simple news (and this kind of news is pretty much all there is to it regarding Star Citizen, unless you start writing summaries about the "forum feedback" segment during Wingman's Hangar, excerpts from the development tracker and so on...but that's the "job" of a proper fansite) about games, for example Project Eternity, sometimes Wildstar and others because....duh, I like writing these kind of posts, among other things. Yeah, I'm bizarre like that.

But hey, again, no problem if, in this case, I brought this attitude to an extreme, didn't mean to.
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[calapine]

I love that this has turned into a Hex v. Star Citizen defense of which idea is less silly.

Currently: both still silly.

I am not sure what the discussion is about anymore really. I don't think anyone here disagrees that $1000 is crazy. Whether its a released game or not.

[calapine]

Since I've been (probably) the most vocal source of fundraising info lately, I guess I owe you guys an apology if you felt this was obnoxious or just free advertisment; like I said, if it helps to calm the waters a bit, I'll gladly stop. Eventually, there will be a game to talk about too (yeah, I know, I'm naive :P).

As you might have noticed in other threads, I like posting simple news (and this kind of news is pretty much all there is to it regarding Star Citizen, unless you start writing summaries about the "forum feedback" segment during Wingman's Hangar, excerpts from the development tracker and so on...but that's the "job" of a proper fansite) about games, for example Project Eternity, sometimes Wildstar and others because....duh, I like writing these kind of posts, among other things. Yeah, I'm bizarre like that.

But hey, again, no problem if, in this case, I brought this attitude to an extreme, didn't mean to.

I don't think you have to apolgies at all. You have been probably the most constructive (IE game focused, new info) contributer in this thread. Of course details about new ships are absolutely uninteresting for someone who doesn't care about the game, but this is the Star Citizen thread after all. There are entire subforums I ignore completely (Bloodbowl, LOL) as there games there offer nothing for me. That doesn't mean I am offended by their exstience or begrudge other people posting there. So why shoudl it be different in reverse for this thread?

[Mrbloodworth]

Since I've been (probably) the most vocal source of fundraising info lately, I guess I owe you guys an apology if you felt this was obnoxious or just free advertisment; like I said, if it helps to calm the waters a bit, I'll gladly stop. Eventually, there will be a game to talk about too (yeah, I know, I'm naive :P).

As you might have noticed in other threads, I like posting simple news (and this kind of news is pretty much all there is to it regarding Star Citizen, unless you start writing summaries about the "forum feedback" segment during Wingman's Hangar, excerpts from the development tracker and so on...but that's the "job" of a proper fansite) about games, for example Project Eternity, sometimes Wildstar and others because....duh, I like writing these kind of posts, among other things. Yeah, I'm bizarre like that.

But hey, again, no problem if, in this case, I brought this attitude to an extreme, didn't mean to.
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I Used to do the same thing ( With many games ). Not anymore.

[Malakili]

I love that this has turned into a Hex v. Star Citizen defense of which idea is less silly.

Currently: both still silly.

I am not sure what the discussion is about anymore really. I don't think anyone here disagrees that $1000 is crazy. Whether its a released game or not.

I think the discussion is about a game that isn't out yet that continues to sell very expensive things for said game, and that the news regarding the selling of said ships seems to be the most notable news they are releasing about the game.

But some people seem to be taking it really personally.  I don't really care what people are spending on this.  But I do care about the fact that RSI seems to have developed a really iffy way of funding game development.

[Paelos]

I care for the reason that I have about every Kickstarter. I think they are the worst thing to happen to our hobby other than that XBONE Kinect advertising Big Brother in the living room shit.

[calapine]

I think the discussion is about a game that isn't out yet that continues to sell very expensive things for said game, and that the news regarding the selling of said ships seems to be the most notable news they are releasing about the game.

But some people seem to be taking it really personally.  I don't really care what people are spending on this.  But I do care about the fact that RSI seems to have developed a really iffy way of funding game development.

Ahh. It's not really true though that all (or even most) of the news is about selling ships. They are doing tons of podcasts and developer Q&A sessions. Of course some of it is lore talk and details about planned game mechanics, but I think it's natural that game development can't keep up to provide news if you do weekly updates. The game is scheduled to release in 2015. The dogfighting module is supposed to be shown this December, so far they are keeping their promises and IMHO it's a bit early to yell "Vaporeware!!".

About the business model, I don't see the issue really. They are very up front about ship selling being about funding the game and not buying yourself an advantage. And it's completely optional. If they weren't honest about that I'd agree and say 'Yes, that smells'. But that's not really the impression I got so far. In the end, the money has to come from somewhere...

[schild]

You do know that those podcasts and Q&A sessions are basically time-share presentations, right?

If they stopped accepting money and just made the fucking game, this thread wouldn't be where it is.

[Rasix]

In the end, the money has to come from somewhere...

Then get it from traditional funding channels instead of continuing to bilk the obviously exploitable fan base.  It's disgusting.  

Will you at least be able to fly the damned spaceship you bought with the dogfighting module (provided it's not just Mike Vick in space)?

[calapine]

Then get it from traditional funding channels instead of continuing to bilk the obviously exploitable fan base.  It's disgusting.  

Will you at least be able to fly the damned spaceship you bought with the dogfighting module (provided it's not just Mike Vick in space)?

I don't see what's bad about accepting money, but maybe I am too naive. I haven't been burned by trusting a developer...yet.  

Yes, that's the plan. As soon as the dogfight module is out you can take the ships in your hangar (and only those) out for a fight. First against AI only, netcode being implented early next year (I think, would have to look it up).

[Paelos]

Yeah at this point, they've proven there's a base. They've collected $30M. You can point to that customer base, go to any bank or equity source and get $30M more to finish the game.

You know why they don't? Because there's no interest and no equity-sharing in crowd funding, and the people are dumb enough to accept that. They aren't even getting a charitable donation writeoff either. The Red Cross should develop a game.

[Lucas]

I think that Schild, Rasix, and now Paelos, with their latest posts, all perfectly summarized the issue, and you know, while I shelled out my large amount of money for the project, I tend to agree with their points, they're perfectly valid.

Yet, driven by my interest for the sub-genre, passion for videogames and more (yeah, maybe dumbness, among other things), I opened my wallet. In the end, I don't think there is a "middle ground", about this subject. I think we're reached a stall and it will be FAR more interesting to see, from now on, if they can "walk the talk" as you say in english, or if everything will crumble with Roberts flying to (real) space with his crew on a spaceship driven by Garriott (imagine that :D), with them recreating a typical FTL session 

Yeah, I know, I like to ruin the bickering fun like that  

[Rasix]

[calapine]

Something to read when bored: Jump Point a sort of monthly update about the game. Issues 1 to 16. I uploaded them on my google drive, feel free to grab.

I am just reading issue 1 and they were doing some sort of 24 hour live stream. But as the Cloud Imperium offices weren't finished yet so they do it out of....Richard Garriots rooms. 

[Stormwaltz]

...Jesus Christ, people.

I brought up Hex intending to humorously point out we've all got our pet games that we spend money on hoping they come to fruition. I don't care about Hex one way or the other, so I don't read about it. (In fact, I don't read it so much, I didn't even notice the forum had been hidden.)

Schild, I'm sorry. That's a sincere apology. I shouldn't have said any goddamn thing. I didn't think this would turn into a fucking fanboy pissing match.

[Furiously]

No. I think it's been good. We've all agreed the prices for ships are ludicrous.

[Lucas]

I am just reading issue 1 and they were doing some sort of 24 hour live stream. But as the Cloud Imperium offices weren't finished yet so they do it out of....Richard Garriots rooms. 

See? the plot thickens! 

[schild]

No. I think it's been good. We've all agreed the prices for ships are ludicrous.

My message wasn't that the prices are ludicrous.

It was that people are giving over money at those prices.

The people are the problem. Chris Roberts being a pile of stinky shit isn't the problem.

[Hoax]

I think all this illustrates a point I failed badly to make many pages ago. So I'll make another very poor attempt here.

The way that Star Citizen is doing this does damage the outlook of the game if it ever does decide to try to be a real game. The way they are bilking people over and over and over for every fucking ship they model for their space game is disgusting to most people. Its a massive fucking turn off for people outside this looking in towards the company and people who are supposedly eventually going to make a game when they decide to stop running this virtual bake sale.

In addition I believe that a game's community suffers immensely when you have people who are looking down on new players because they didn't invest super elite founder status. Nothing kills the joy in a game faster than having a segment of the community who is advocating to punish new players for being new. Which will happen. Can you imagine what the outcry will be if a $200 ship is one of the starter ship choices for example? Or what if a $100 ship is a reward for a mission you get to in the first hour? Don't lie to yourself and think there wouldn't be an internet holy war over how unfair that is to the poor founders who bled for the game and made it possible aren't getting enough of a reward.

My third point against all this is, I don't really want to play an online game where these shitlords are starting with LTE and 18 ships and super plat special gimgaws. Its less fun. I remember FF11 when they put us on established JP servers that had existed for a year. The JP's rigged the economy as much as they could to take advantage of the influx of fresh characters. It was shit. If this was ever a real game, it would be much worse.

I'll stop here but fuck this Star Citizen bake sale and fuck these founder programs in general.

[lamaros]

The problem with this thread isn't that there's a bunch of people who don't like the 'game', it's that outside of that all the posts are simple copy pastes by Lucas and bloodworth repeating 'give us more money' spiels, often verbatim.

How irrational people can get defending silly positions is somewhat engaging, I suppose.

[rk47]

[Ironwood]

I care for the reason that I have about every Kickstarter. I think they are the worst thing to happen to our hobby other than that XBONE Kinect advertising Big Brother in the living room shit.

Yes.  Pretty much this.  Also, I've been staggered since Schild dropped the 30 Mil figure.

That's insane.

[ajax34i]

So, updates detailing what progress they've made on actually coding the game = ok, but please remove all the advertising, ship sales, and stretch goal information before you post?  It's kinda like SWTOR; I was interested in the progress of the game, but hated all the cartel market advertising they kept doing.  80% of their patch notes could be thrown away because it was cartel pricing shit.

[Mrbloodworth]

Will you at least be able to fly the damned spaceship you bought with the dogfighting module (provided it's not just Mike Vick in space)?

That's the plan. Yes. If not have the ability to fly ALL ships at that point. Even the Dog-fighting module is supposed to be released iteratively. First editions, according to developer posts will be Single-player VS AI, with multi-player to follow as they shore up the custom netcode ( instead of using out the box CryENGINE ), then it should resemble a session based ship fighting game used to test the net, the combat/flight as they move forward.

The whole system, like the hanger, is designed to get people in early to test systems. Example: The hanger was a test bed for the Launcher/patcher, Database, ship and player animations and interactions system, early version of the ship outfitting system, and login services. Not to mention scene density and performance feedback scraping.

No. I think it's been good. We've all agreed the prices for ships are ludicrous.

That happened around page 5.

Stuff....

You Can host your own server, and not be attached to any of this. You can even mod the server ( Cheats for all! ). I Think people forget, this isn't a MMO. There is a hosted Persistent world though, that the only place any of the "bought" stuff even works.

[Miasma]

So, updates detailing what progress they've made on actually coding the game = ok, but please remove all the advertising, ship sales, and stretch goal information before you post?  It's kinda like SWTOR; I was interested in the progress of the game, but hated all the cartel market advertising they kept doing.  80% of their patch notes could be thrown away because it was cartel pricing shit.

The bulk of the campaign ends in four days, on the 26th.  Things will slow down dramatically after that but the next few days is going to be very busy over there as all the original backers lock in their lifetime insurance ships (even though it really isn't that big of an advantage).  They have decided that the concerns about feature creep from some of the funding goals is valid so there will be no more goals that add some crazy subsystem or functionality.  Each goal reached from now on will just fund a new ship.

[Yoru]

You know, whether you're starfucking him with your dick or your MasterCard, Chris Roberts don't love you back.

[Mrbloodworth]

I've said nothing of the sort. That's a huge mischaracterization, and exactly the type of trolling I was talking about.

[Furiously]

Each goal reached from now on will just fund a new ship.

Well they went full ponzi.

[schild]

Each goal reached from now on will just fund a new ship.

Well they went full ponzi.

lolllllllllllllllll, I totally missed that.

I like that they can't even do this right. Stop adding content you morons and finish the game.