So, who won the 3rd gen?

[eldaec]

It was me, I am the winner.

[Sheepherder]

They're about as similar as Doom 1 and CoD, and I don't think you could argue that those are the same generation of FPS.

While the interfaces may have changed, mostly to do with quality of life, what real innovations have been made in either of these genres that are generational?

The ability to strafe.

[Rendakor]

They're about as similar as Doom 1 and CoD, and I don't think you could argue that those are the same generation of FPS.

While the interfaces may have changed, mostly to do with quality of life, what real innovations have been made in either of these genres that are generational?

The ability to strafe.

Cover, choose-your-loadout instead of find-the-gun, and the ability to zoom or look down a weapon's sight just to name a few more off the top of my head.

[Scold]

They're about as similar as Doom 1 and CoD, and I don't think you could argue that those are the same generation of FPS.

While the interfaces may have changed, mostly to do with quality of life, what real innovations have been made in either of these genres that are generational?

The ability to strafe.

Cover, choose-your-loadout instead of find-the-gun, and the ability to zoom or look down a weapon's sight just to name a few more off the top of my head.

Quake vs CoD is a much more apt comparison to EQ vs WoW, and at least with Quake you had contemporaneous games (Goldeneye on N64, for example) reasonably executing so many of the things that would later be associated with games like CoD, such as sniper rifle zoom and being able to use/lean around cover.

FPS development has always proceeded on two parallel tracks, the Quake mold and the CounterStrike mold basically, with the DoD mold being an offshoot of the latter. People think the genre 'evolved' just because the Quake track has been sleeping for a while, but then along comes ShootMania Storm...

[Merusk]

For FPSes, the biggest innovation from Doom 1 to CoD is multiplayer and a level/unlock system. The basic tenets of gameplay are almost exactly the same.

If you're going to argue from this high a level, why not just say that card games haven't evolved in a few hundred years because they still entail shuffling a deck and drawing cards.

The basic tenants of Football and Rugby are the same! You're carrying a ball past a goal line while the other team tries to stop you! They're identical!

It's a silly level to argue at, that's why.

[eldaec]

They're about as similar as Doom 1 and CoD, and I don't think you could argue that those are the same generation of FPS.

While the interfaces may have changed, mostly to do with quality of life, what real innovations have been made in either of these genres that are generational?

The ability to strafe.

You are clearly insane. The most important generational shift was balancing for lean.

[Outlawedprod]

The ability to strafe.

You are clearly insane. The most important generational shift was balancing for lean.

But what about grenade spam?

[Murgos]

So do RuneScape and MapleStory just not count because they're aimed at people a decade or so younger than us?

They're both older that World of Warcraft.  If you start including games that old, then talking about the "winner" is kind of a foregone conclusion.  I'm sure RuneScape is doing great for an indie title, but as far as I can tell, it's not pulling in a hundred million dollars a month.

It's pulling in more like 20-25 million a month, I think. That's still pretty damn good, and almost certainly beating most of the AAA MMOs.  MapleStory is probably making significantly more than that.

See, you're back to a weird, objective 'it makes more money so it must be better' argument.  First of all popular does not equal good and second of all if you follow that argument to it's conclusion then we are still talking about WoW Uber Alles.

[Scold]

See, you're back to a weird, objective 'it makes more money so it must be better' argument.  First of all popular does not equal good and second of all if you follow that argument to it's conclusion then we are still talking about WoW Uber Alles.

Sorry - I thought this entire thread was about commercial success, not about what makes for the 'best' game?  You started off the thread with "Obviously the big winner overall is still WoW and the first gen winner was probably EQ (sorry Raph)."  Since both of those are terrible games from a gameplay point of view, what was this discussion about if not 'commercial success but without including WoW'?

Edit: Not to mention that your analysis in the original post of all the other games hinges pretty much entirely on subscriber count / commercial success, not a discussion of 'gameplay' or 'fun'.

[Paelos]

First of all popular does not equal good

It does = who won though.

[Ghambit]

The answer to the OP's question to me is a pretty personal one.  We can debate it all we want to and 10 yrs. ago sure, maybe we'd have an answer.  But today's gamespace is much much larger, carrying an even bigger economy then the music industry.  It's at the point now where debating this stuff is a bit like debating novels...  fruitless, pointless, and really just an exercise in argumentative prowess.

That being said, I really do feel NO ONE has 'won' because not a single studio is deserving the trophy.  It's still out there... lurking, waiting to be claimed.  AoC had the best shot of any game since WoW (there can be no doubt in this), but they were rushed to release with only half their features, un-optimized, and very buggy.  They sold the most boxes if I recall yes?  (not including SWOR)

Perhaps the days of the epic MMO are gone.  We're going to be greeted yearly by these niche releases that look to perfect a subset of entertainment values. Rift, TSW, GW2, STO, SWOR, etc. all exhibit this quality.  In this arena I do believe TSW wins simply due to story trumping everything else.

Broadly though, as of today I'm going to hold my vote until Wildstar releases.  WoW reinvented the genre, so I figure most of the original WoW-devs can do it again with Wildstar.  The winner is likely to be a science-fantasy game anyways (high fantasy is a crowded theme), so may as well put the money there.

[Merusk]

First of all popular does not equal good

It does = who won though.

Popular != good is always the cry of those who won't accept that their tastes are not universal and they are, in fact, the minority.  Popular generally = most-accepted or else it wouldn't be popular.

I detest the current trends in women's shoes and auto designs. It doesn't mean everyone else's taste sucks because they like them, it means I have to accept that my tastes are uncommon and unpopular.  I can be an elitist dick about it, which will net me nothing, or I can acknowledge and move on.

[Paelos]

I pretty much agree. I hate it when people put on the beret about something supremely subjective, and then openly use an items financial success as some sort of evidence that it sucks.

[HaemishM]

For FPSes, the biggest innovation from Doom 1 to CoD is multiplayer and a level/unlock system. The basic tenets of gameplay are almost exactly the same.

If you're going to argue from this high a level, why not just say that card games haven't evolved in a few hundred years because they still entail shuffling a deck and drawing cards.

The basic tenants of Football and Rugby are the same! You're carrying a ball past a goal line while the other team tries to stop you! They're identical!

It's a silly level to argue at, that's why.

Actually, card games haven't really evolved much in a hundred years until you got things like collectible card games. Similarly with board games that had a slight burp of evolution in the 80's with some electronic components, and lately with the addition of collectible pieces and/or construction on top of the board/modularity of the boards.

Handegg, rugby and football are all offshoots of the same rulesets - the split between the three could be considered a generational tidal shift that then spawned their own generational evolutionary track. In fact, that's probably one of the best analogies I can give you for my thoughts on the generations. MMOG's are an evolutionary offshoot (a new medium) of video games in general.

I still don't think there's been enough progress made with the MMOG formula to claim a new generation, though I will concede that the shift from subscriptions to F2P for new titles (not the shift from subs to F2P for existing titles) has the potential to actually make a second gen. To me, there hasn't been enough PROGRESS in gameplay, execution or innovation to make a generational shift. Fuck, we're still trying to make chat systems work right on launch (TSW says HI!) and player trading systems (GW2 says HI!)

When does 2nd generation get here? I think either when F2P with microtransactions is the norm for big bugdet titles and/or when player generated content/worlds are commonplace (that's 3rd gen).

[Khaldun]

Minecraft.

But really, no one "wins" in online gaming. There are only bodies.

Holy fucking shit, I completely agree with Schild on something, unqualified. 

This is basically one of the two or three key things I'm arguing in the project I'm working on.

There is no "third generation" of diku-style MMOs. There's only mutant offspring and stillborn babies. Evaluating the 3gen games is like sailing down the river in "Deliverance".

[Venkman]

When does 2nd generation get here? I think either when F2P with microtransactions is the norm for big bugdet titles and/or when player generated content/worlds are commonplace (that's 3rd gen).

F2P is here. I marked it as Club Penguin, though MapleStory (per Raph) or Habbo could mark it as well. These games got enormous for a time. Legacy games strapping on F2P don't count since they weren't built for it. But I think SWTOR killed subs for anyone else serious about this space. Box sales still cover the big budgets though. That will probably be the case for awhile, though the newer F2P games seem to have gotten the formula right enough to get way more than the minimum % of players to invest.

But user gen content? I don't think so. Just how easy does it need to get to create and ship a game before people realize there's a reason why developers scoop up the relatively few player-teams who have the right cross section of skills and mindset to build and release a full game?

[Ratman_tf]

When does 2nd generation get here? I think either when F2P with microtransactions is the norm for big bugdet titles and/or when player generated content/worlds are commonplace (that's 3rd gen).

F2P is here. I marked it as Club Penguin, though MapleStory (per Raph) or Habbo could mark it as well. These games got enormous for a time. Legacy games strapping on F2P don't count since they weren't built for it. But I think SWTOR killed subs for anyone else serious about this space. Box sales still cover the big budgets though. That will probably be the case for awhile, though the newer F2P games seem to have gotten the formula right enough to get way more than the minimum % of players to invest.

How many of the F2P games are pulling in Maple Story numbers? It looks like the F2P space is pretty fucking glutted to me.

[trias_e]

Not sure about third gen (what does that mean?)

From my perspective, there are only 3 games that really matter right now.

EVE - never ending super sandbox politics economy etc.

TSW -  Awesome single player game, questionable MMO content, but done reasonably enough to actually show a path for a legitimate story based MMO (unlike STWOR IMO)

GW2 - Sucessor to WoW in a way the previous games are not.  What WoW was to EQ, GW2 is to WoW.  I think the PvE content is somewhat mediocre to be honest, but I can't argue against the fact that GW2 holistically incorporates aspects from WAR and RIFT in a cohesive and effective way.  Sometimes I find it a massive grind with no point, but other times I find it a gorgeous, fluid amalgam of previous MMOs.

[Murgos]

First of all popular does not equal good

It does = who won though.

Popular != good is always the cry of those who won't accept that their tastes are not universal and they are, in fact, the minority.  Popular generally = most-accepted or else it wouldn't be popular.

Popular != good and popular != bad.  Popular is it's own parameter that is only loosely coupled to quality, there are many things that effect popularity.  Good, mediocre or bad qualities are only part of it.  If we want to play stupid games there are hundreds of examples of things that are objectively, measurable worse than their competitors and yet are more popular.

[HaemishM]

But user gen content? I don't think so. Just how easy does it need to get to create and ship a game before people realize there's a reason why developers scoop up the relatively few player-teams who have the right cross section of skills and mindset to build and release a full game?

We've already had examples of the burgeoning stages of that with things like COH's user-built dungeons (and EQ2 as well I think). I didn't say the content would be GOOD. 

Keep in mind, this is 3rd gen I'm talking about with user-generated content. And we've got quite a ways to go before that happens. It'll be a lot like MUD's were in the past - small, dedicated groups running their own little domain (like the Bottle City Boys in my third novel). We might actually see full-sensory immersion technology before we see that 3rd gen MMO type of thing, but I've been known to be surprised before.

[Mrbloodworth]

I Still need a Chart.

[Venkman]

How about a table for starters? 

How many of the F2P games are pulling in Maple Story numbers? It looks like the F2P space is pretty fucking glutted to me.

Same percentage of AAAs pulling in WoW numbers 

Mind you, I'm focused just on f2p persistent worlds, not the general f2p Facebook games.

We might actually see full-sensory immersion technology before we see that 3rd gen MMO type of thing, but I've been known to be surprised before.

Ah ok, since we're talking those kinds of specific conditions, might as well toss in an entire generation of kids specially trained in content creation, not just content consumption 

[Simond]

Has anyone said that Blizzard won, yet? 

[Mrbloodworth]

Doesn't SOE have the VOIP/Face capture thing, and also, didn't they just announce letting users submit models and textures for the games?

[HaemishM]

We might actually see full-sensory immersion technology before we see that 3rd gen MMO type of thing, but I've been known to be surprised before.

Ah ok, since we're talking those kinds of specific conditions, might as well toss in an entire generation of kids specially trained in content creation, not just content consumption 

That generation is now. YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, social media, desktop publishing. And the general trend of PVE in MMOG's is pointing to "way too expensive to produce enough content ever for the ravaging hordes."

It will be slow going, but it's coming.

[Kageru]

Doesn't SOE have the VOIP/Face capture thing, and also, didn't they just announce letting users submit models and textures for the games?

... it's EQ2, only a small number of bitter-vets care. Most of the public won't even notice.

[Mrbloodworth]

Uh, I'm talking about moves already happening in terms of content creation by the user base. The model submission thing is not just EQ2 AFAIK.

[Venkman]

That generation is now. YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, social media, desktop publishing. And the general trend of PVE in MMOG's is pointing to "way too expensive to produce enough content ever for the ravaging hordes."

It will be slow going, but it's coming.

So here's the thing I'm stuck on. And it's the same place I'm stuck at every 3-5 years this comes up.

We've been able to create content forever. MacPaint, Hypercard, Supercard, UnrealEd, iMovie, whatever. I could go back to cave paintings, but a 30 year range is probably fine for this discussion.

During these past few decades, the things most talked about with regards to usergen content have been the tools, and the looming usergen revolution. Your examples are valid for getting content distributed. But they are not content creation tools. YouTube is powered by iMovie and entry level versions of professional video editing tools. I assume for Facebook and Twitter you mean the underlying blogs and Flash apps users link to. "Social Media" is just repeating Facebook and Twitter (and including Bebo, Renren, etc). "Desktop publishing" (if that term is still used) is the only one up there about content creation, but at this point we're really talking MS Office. It's actually very powerful, but like so many other content creation tools, you need to have the means and the willingness to learn them to get the most use out of it.

We haven't seen this revolution because at heart, content creation is hard. And good content creation requires the kind of skills that evolved into the industries we pay all this money to support. The few examples either quickly monetized, got scooped up by publishers, or are known to a core few.

This is not some elitist position about content creators being "better". It's just market forces. Yea there could be point of view on large publishers keeping the indies from the public eye. But that's just black helicopters bullshit. There is nothing preventing users from creating their own work. They just need to be willing to learn the tools, be willing to put their work out their to get critiqued and be willing fail a few times before they have a hit.

All power to create your own missions as a hail mary along the lines of putting f2p on subs games. But we're all still going to respond to marketing campaigns from major publishers who hire up the content creators.

[Zetor]

COH had a fairly robust content creation system. I was pretty heavily involved in the COH Mission Architect scene, such as it was beyond all the "lol fire farm" missions   You could set up a variety of objectives (boss fight, gather, destroy, defend, escort, patrol, ally, ambush... off the top of my head), make your enemies using COH's (pretty good) character creator, set up clues and enemy quips to make your narrative flow, etc. You could even set up a chain of up to 5 missions with briefing/debriefing/popup messages between them, a contact (again, character creator) and have a lot of tricks for text formatting to make things flow better (I recommend playing the "Signal:Noise" arc if you want an example). There were over 600k missions made (half or more of those in the first year) and a good amount of them were decent / fun to play / etc. I levelled multiple characters doing nothing but Mission Architect missions with zero repetition overall (all high-quality well-written stories picked from various 'best of' lists on the forums) -- and it was a better experience for me than levelling via the official dev-created content. Note that I'm not saying that dev content was BAD... it's just that the MA stories had a lot more variance. The big caveat is dealing with Sturgeon's Law, obviously.

And now, COH is dead. :(


Stuff like "create models for EQ2" isn't even nearly the same ballpark, since most people don't have the time/inclination necessary for modelling and artwork. Everyone can write a (very possibly bad) story and design some monster spawns by using pre-made building blocks and tools that don't need you to know what uvw unwrapping is or how to spend 5 hours fixing up pathing nodes in that 2-room map you just spent half a day building.


edit: tried to dam my stream of consciousness in the first paragraph... it's hard to feel neutral about this, dammit!

[Margalis]

Content creation with specialized tools has been a a hot item in theory for quite some time and has never panned out. FFS I remember when Impossible Creatures was being pitched as the RTS that would let people build any RTS.

There are so so many problems with user-created content. First, few people have the combination of time, energy and ability to do it. Second, it's very rare for mediocre games with good content creation tools to get any real support, for the most part you already need to have a good base game. (Day Z is the notable exception here)

Stuff like Minecraft where users create the content as part of the game itself? Sure. But stuff that requires separate tooling? I don't think that's ever going to really take off.

[Ghambit]

Never panned out???  So what about Half Life, Unreal, Arma, NWN?  In the strat. space, Civ, Sins, and many others.  Where it fails is in the MMO space, because as we all know MMO-Devs are fuckstupid when it comes to doing pretty much anything of substance correctly.

All it really takes is 'content creation' actually making it into the original design, rather then being tacked-on after the playerbase has already left.  Not a SINGLE MMO has ever been built around content creation.  Maybe AtitD and vanilla SWG came close, but they're abstract in purpose only.  We came close when Perpetual owned the rights to STO, but then Cryptic got a hold of it and backwards we went.

Minecraft btw, to be completely effective as a content creator does indeed require separate tooling and player-made mods.

[Sheepherder]

But stuff that requires separate tooling? I don't think that's ever going to really take off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDyW1_RRutA

[Venkman]

Never panned out???  So what about Half Life, Unreal, Arma, NWN?  In the strat. space, Civ, Sins, and many others. 

I was thinking about this after my post above. Not the examples per se, but what this sub-debate is really about.

Forever people have been able to create content. The tools and distribution mechanisms change, but the fundamentals are always there. Person/group motivated to learn a tool, competent enough to do something with it, confident enough to put it out there, and correct enough to be successful. But, that's entrepreneurship, not "user generated content". All of your (and every other) examples are startup-like companies that quickly made good.

Usergen generally assumes the tools and distribution is already there and that success is purely based on user creativity. That's along the lines of Second Life, Little Big Planet, vanilla UnrealEd or Minecraft, indie Xbox, etc. I don't even put MC mods in this category, because the average person isn't a coder

That's the piece that's never taken off. Oh yes there's a huge amount of creativity out there. And there are many example sof usergen becoming developed franchises. But generally those successes come after the franchise has developed (and the original saw-it-firsts have long since moved on lest they get annoyed by the newcomer/masses  ).

[Amaron]

NWN

All of your (and every other) examples are startup-like companies that quickly made good.

What?

[UnSub]

Never panned out???  So what about Half Life, Unreal, Arma, NWN? 

If you are willing to let players create content for free at a variety of levels, and the devs can wash their hands of anything that is created, then it can work out. There are also plenty of examples of dead mod communities out there as well.

But it is rare that players are willing to play anything but a one-off fee to play player-developed content. Ryzom had a player created content system for a large part of its life and has died about 3 times now. ATITD was mentioned and that never seemed to get bigger than about 5k players.

The truth is that a small segment of any player base likes creating content while a much larger segment is only looking for something to consume. In theory, Cryptic's Neverwinter is going to have content creation tools in there from day 1, so that will be an interesting experiment.