CoH to be shut down

[Nevermore]

So I worked on CoH for 8 years (Left a year and a half ago).  AMA.

Oh hey, I remember you!  Loved when you'd post on the forums over there.  d(^_^)b

Still really sad to see CoX go.  I just don't understand why there's a need to shut the game down even if NCSoft isn't willing to invest anymore in any further development.

[pohsyb]

What took the fix to Enzymes (where you could slot them into Defense toggles and ED cap them in two enhancements) so long to come?

Probably the bug reports not escalating.  Would've been a trivial change.

[Scold]

All of the FX had to be remade from scratch.  They were originally colored and if you try to tint something colored it just doesn't work.  The tech end wasn't that bad, we needed to create the new UI, save the new fields and have it trickled down to the graphics engine. 

Art time was usually our long pole for any milestone, so it took a while before power fx finally seemed worth the time and effort.  (Its all about getting the most bang for your buck).

When plotting out new features/content additions internally, how did you guys try to balance between "hey guys I have this really cool idea!" and "what can we add that will keep people subbed / attract unsubbed players to return?"  Or do/did you not see any tension between those two motives?

[Zetor]

So I worked on CoH for 8 years (Left a year and a half ago).  AMA.

Heyyy I remember you talking in the MA Arc Finder channel a few months ago!  

Speaking of which - what was you guys' outlook / plans for the Mission Architect? Did you see it as a novelty, a failed experiment, or something that's awesome and should be setting trends in the industry? Did the MA-related problems (copyright breaches, bad content, rampant farming, server load issues, etc) cause more headaches than it was worth?

[cironian]

So I worked on CoH for 8 years (Left a year and a half ago).  AMA.

Just chiming in with: Thanks for the memories! Too bad it's over.

This is the sad thing about online games. Whereas you can pick up a ten year old offline game from GOG and relive the memories, when the publisher loses interest in an MMO, it's usually gone forever.

[Kageru]

This is the sad thing about online games. Whereas you can pick up a ten year old offline game from GOG and relive the memories, when the publisher loses interest in an MMO, it's usually gone forever.

And realize that it doesn't run properly under modern operating systems and 720x480 doesn't look so good anymore. CoH had a good run and still looks good (bar the character models). Though it looks like my dream of capping a character will never happen.

So I guess my question is if we can feel safe blaming the now cryptic leads for starving CoH in its youth.

[UnSub]

So I worked on CoH for 8 years (Left a year and a half ago).  AMA.

Good times, Pohsby. Good times. 

Was CoH/V shutting down really a surprise for you? Putting aside how NCsoft handled it, was it something that was expected at some point if revenue kept going down like it was?

[pohsyb]

When plotting out new features/content additions internally, how did you guys try to balance between "hey guys I have this really cool idea!" and "what can we add that will keep people subbed / attract unsubbed players to return?"  Or do/did you not see any tension between those two motives?

There were there were a different ways we would classify features, how well we thought they would help retention, how well they would help gain subscribers and how much you personally wanted it.  Lots of pet features got in just because someone pushed for it because it was there pet project.  Getting the most bang for the buck was constant consideration though.  If your pet project was gonna take 4 months, forget about it.

For a long time new subscriber/marketing push outweighed retention, unfortunately that meant a lot of QoL features were deferred.

[pohsyb]

What was you guys' outlook / plans for the Mission Architect? Did you see it as a novelty, a failed experiment, or something that's awesome and should be setting trends in the industry? Did the MA-related problems (copyright breaches, bad content, rampant farming, server load issues, etc) cause more headaches than it was worth?

I don't think there were extensive future plans for it.  Maybe a map builder at some point, but I think we mostly got it where we wanted it.  As to the problems, depends who you ask.  I think it was totally worth it.  Some designers, not so much.  The biggest argument before we started working on it was rewards.  The designers wanted it to be full simulation so there would be no rewards, just a tool for RPGers.  I was adamant that no one would use it if that were the case and constantly had to fight for it giving out rewards, farming be damned.

[pohsyb]

Was CoH/V shutting down really a surprise for you? Putting aside how NCsoft handled it, was it something that was expected at some point if revenue kept going down like it was?

I guess it was out of the blue for the people still there in the sense there was no foreshadowing from the leaders.  However, I saw it coming a mile a way, its why I left.  It was inevitable.  If you look at subscription numbers it is just long steady decline.  The studio tried to start a new game 3 separate times and failed every single time.  The management of the studio kept doubling-down on CoH.  When they canceled the last new project to put everyone on making CoH F2P is when I started seriously job-seeking.  I'm sorry, but no matter how much development you add, not a lot of new people are gonna start playing an 8 year old game. 

[Amaron]

For a long time new subscriber/marketing push outweighed retention, unfortunately that meant a lot of QoL features were deferred.

I remember one of the dev's at some point stating re-subs were pretty significant for CoH.  I would have thought QoL would be seen as valuable in that case.

[Scold]

How far in advance was the storyline plotted out? For example, was the "death of Statesman" on the radar years earlier?

Were there deep, dark secrets of the game universe fleshed out well in advance, written in a Lore Bible somewhere for use in future story arcs, that nobody ever got around to using?  Along the lines of the "Rikti are really mutated alternate-earth humans rather than aliens" reveal?

[pohsyb]

How far in advance was the storyline plotted out? For example, was the "death of Statesman" on the radar years earlier?

Were there deep, dark secrets of the game universe fleshed out well in advance, written in a Lore Bible somewhere for use in future story arcs, that nobody ever got around to using?  Along the lines of the "Rikti are really mutated alternate-earth humans rather than aliens" reveal?

Death of Statesman wasn't that far in advance, I think they decided to do that after I left, but I was pleased (Statesman is a boring dick of a character).

There was actually a "story bible."  Rick Dakan, the originally lead designer was a great writer (not as good at designing), so he wrote up long detailed backstories on all of the villain groups.  When I found these, I printed them out and put them in the bathroom with the hopes that more people would read the stories.  It is amazing how many people just don't care, lots of the artists just have an "I want to make something cool, just tell me what to make" mentality.

I think most of the villain backstories came across through the missions and taskforces.  One story that didn't work out was Rularuu.  Rularuu was meant to be a Galactus style villain, excect that instead of planets he ate dimensions.   But when he came to our dimension, the magic heroes made a kind of fake poison pill dimension that Rularuu ate instead.  By doing so he imploded and was trapped in this fake dimension (Its magic, deal with it).

The shadow shard as written about was supposed to be remnants of the the game world floating about on random islands and mixed up, think the atlas park statue floating next to Terra Volta.  All villain groups would be present but as pale facimiles of the originals.  That is why there are those weird "whispers" that seem to make no sense.  Art reuse for the win!  However, the artists ended up making bizarre alien worlds with rivers of blood.   The Rularuu story was supposed to last for three issues, but it was such a failure that it was immediately abandoned and thereafter told as a cautionary tale about the dangers of momentum when no one is sterring the ship (everyone knew it was shitty, but we pressed on anyways).

[tazelbain]

Whats the deal the procedurally generated maps?  Besides adding a few new "legos" here and there, they stayed the same over the course the game. It feels like there was so wasted potential with them.  

[pohsyb]

Whats the deal the procedurally generated maps?  Besides adding a few new "legos" legos here and there, they stayed the same over the course the game. It feels like there was so wasted potential with them.  

The problem was that they were NOT procedurally generated.  Artists pieced together all the trays to make those maps.  This is why they felt so boring and repetitive.   10 small caves, 10 medium caves, 10 large caves.  After running them enough you know the layout and the spawn placement.

I tried several times to get procedural maps going but there was a lot of resistance.  Producers worried about bugs, designers worried about exploits, art worried about losing control.

[Scold]

I apologize in advance, but I have to ask -- the whole "5th Column/Council/5th Column again" thing, what on earth was the deal there?

[proudft]

Yeah, my Soviet hero was quite put out when the 5th Council disappeared.  He liked punchin' Nazis!

[pohsyb]

I apologize in advance, but I have to ask -- the whole "5th Column/Council/5th Column again" thing, what on earth was the deal there?

We were going to be released in Europe, more specifically Germany.  Despite the posts saying it was already planned and part of the story, yada yada yada, it was really Germany.  Germany has laws and rules about profiting off the likeness of Nazis and Wolfenstien had just made the news for being banned.  Truth be told, know one really knew any German law and if it would be legal or not, it wouldn't have mattered if we did, the attitude was better safe than sorry. 

[koro]

So what was the deal with the big delay between (I believe I have the right ones in mind) Issues 6 and 7, from the launch of CoV to the first CoV update which brought its level cap up in line with CoH's? I remember it being some ridiculously long lag time (I want to say at least seven months?) with Villains stuck at level 40, and the long wait with nary a peep from Cryptic was what drove me from the game the first time after playing since damn near release.

[Redgiant]

All Good Things ...

Despite eventually leaving (btw, hard but smart to do), I'm sure you will always be proud knowing that hundreds of thousands of people around the world love CoH, and will always respect it as one of the very best MMOs of any era. The ongoing public support for somehow saving the game's operation is as intense as I've seen.

Some things I'd like your insight into whether these were discussed:

- non-instanced interiors for buildings, rather than them be opaque exteriors and some instance ZLs (perhaps dynamically generated for the scale of coverage, although poly count and scene complexity would be through the roof)
- breakable and damaged objects, such as shattered windows, splintered doors, demolished furniture or walls, in addition to physics of movement
- more urban warfare in the non-private-instanced city zones (PvP or PvE style), making more us of the airspace and building interiors (esp. with the preceding possible)

I always pictured CoH heroes literally flying out of shattered windows on the 44th floor in Steel Canyon, with a villain (PvP or PvE) flying out chasing them. Or fighting guerilla tactics within a skyscraper's office floors and elevator shafts. The "what's around the next corner" tension always seemed a great idea to build on, but the fixed office instance layouts lost this effect due to being too familiar and not occuring outside of private instances in the "real city".

And about the game, Paragon Studios and its future as a business:

- why do you think that no CoH emulator has really ever existed (I think cohemu tried years ago), despite most other AAA MMOs like WoW, DAoC and EQ having pretty elaborate ones?
- what deal at this point would you expect from any 3rd party (fan-driven or otherwise) to be most likely to be seriously considered by NCSoft, to keep the game alive or evolve it? (this obviously depends on the real reasons they shuttered it)
- what is your wishlist, if you had decent funds and time and control, to have done with CoH?

[pohsyb]

So what was the deal with the big delay between (I believe I have the right ones in mind) Issues 6 and 7, from the launch of CoV to the first CoV update which brought its level cap up in line with CoH's? I remember it being some ridiculously long lag time (I want to say at least seven months?) with Villains stuck at level 40, and the long wait with nary a peep from Cryptic was what drove me from the game the first time after playing since damn near release.

20 something issues when I left, they blur together.  No idea man.

[Sheepherder]

I wasn't aware Unreal Tournament was an MMO.

I do also like how you selectively quoted him to make your point.

Well, if you're going to get butthurt about me shortening the quote, I'll replace it in full.  Happy now?

The word used was engine.  You know, the client shit that renders things, takes input, and maybe simulates some basic physics.  Not the server shit which makes an MMO.  It's a dated engine, it looks dated, and using an old engine to draw lots of dudes just does not impress.

[pohsyb]

1 - non-instanced interiors for buildings, rather than them be opaque exteriors and some instance ZLs (perhaps dynamically generated for the scale of coverage, although poly count and scene complexity would be through the roof)
2 - breakable and damaged objects, such as shattered windows, splintered doors, demolished furniture or walls, in addition to physics of movement
3 - more urban warfare in the non-private-instanced city zones (PvP or PvE style), making more us of the airspace and building interiors (esp. with the preceding possible)
4 - why do you think that no CoH emulator has really ever existed (I think cohemu tried years ago), despite most other AAA MMOs like WoW, DAoC and EQ having pretty elaborate ones?
5 - what deal at this point would you expect from any 3rd party (fan-driven or otherwise) to be most likely to be seriously considered by NCSoft, to keep the game alive or evolve it? (this obviously depends on the real reasons they shuttered it)
6 - what is your wishlist, if you had decent funds and time and control, to have done with CoH?

1 - This was mostly a performance issue.  

2 - That was a keystone feature on the Marvel MMO (which eventually turned into Champions), but the retrofitting to make that work in CoH was just too much.

3 - Again performance.  The other problem with making anything destructible is that players will ruin it.

4 - No one leaked the source code

5 - None, I remember wonder when they shut down AA, I asked why not just life-support it and stop development.  One of the producers listed off a bunch of reasons, but it boils down to its actually more hassle than its worth.

6 - The feature I was trying to push before I left (which is 100% technically feasible) was Teamless teaming.  The basic idea is, we have all of your character data, so we can easily create an NPC that looks like you and has your powers (this is actually in the Mission Architect as a clone).  Imagine if you are friends with Catass McGee.  Catass wants to play way more than you, but he likes having you around.  Catass invites you to team with him when you are not around.  You get the invite in a text or email or can set yourself to auto-accept (They really wanted to make a CoH app at the time, but couldn't think of anything useful for it to do).  If you accept, the game beams down an NPC that is a clone of you to follow Catass around like a pet.  While you are offline you can check the status of your proxy, see what rewards you got etc.  Its a win for everyone, Catass gets help and you get effortless rewards.  

[Scold]

Interesting, the D&D Facebook game does precisely that and it's pretty fun.


What sort of canceled MMO projects was Paragon up to?

[pohsyb]

What sort of canceled MMO projects was Paragon up to?

CoH2 never really got too far, Korea was not interested.  There was a "Super powered being" project similar to Secret World (Modern day setting)  that had tech demos, character art, archetypes, but that got scrapped.  Last was a unity based minecrafty island adventure. 

There was a big disconnect between the Korean idea of an MMO and an American.  (CoH was released in Korea and bombed).   They gave us a presentation once on what they thought made a MMO more MMOey.  It basically came down to being able to grief someone.  My favorite section was when they were asked about Farmville, they said it wasn't a MMO, but would be a lot closer if you could go to other peoples farms and burn them down.

[Nevermore]

You know, after reading that it actually makes a lot more sense now why Cryptic wanted to get out from under NCSoft so badly.

[Scold]

You keep giving these mind-blowingly interesting answers, I'm going to feel incredibly disappointed if there's anything I forget to ask you.

[Cheddar]

My favorite section was when they were asked about Farmville, they said it wasn't a MMO, but would be a lot closer if you could go to other peoples farms and burn them down.

I would play this game.

[Redgiant]

6 - The feature I was trying to push before I left (which is 100% technically feasible) was Teamless teaming.

They should have listened more. That sounds like another memorable idea (that WoW would later steal).

It seems like a more personable take on faceless mercs.

CoH's fan base always seemed so dedicated and tight. The game design aligned with team, TF and supergroup play in mind, which may be why. Sure, you could solo and be a social outcast, but it would be painfully slow and you end up with nothing to do in the end anyhow. So whether that was intended or a by-product of just how everything evolved, it surely shaped CoH into the recogizable entity it became.

Imagine if CoH had the soloability of WoW questing, then what kind of community would it now have. Shudder.

[Ingmar]

Imagine if CoH had the soloability of WoW questing, then what kind of community would it now have. Shudder.

One that didn't get its game canceled out from under it? 

[Redgiant]

I knew that was coming when I hit Reply.

[Xanthippe]

I don't remember having to group for quests in CoH.

Of course, I think my highest character got to 32 or something.

OTOH, I made zillions of characters!

[Cheddar]

I don't remember having to group for quests in CoH.

Of course, I think my highest character got to 32 or something.

OTOH, I made zillions of characters!

He is referencing some of the uber instances and taskforce (raid) quests.  Which weren't hard to join at all.  Ya know, since it wasn't the trinity.

[UnSub]

So what was the deal with the big delay between (I believe I have the right ones in mind) Issues 6 and 7, from the launch of CoV to the first CoV update which brought its level cap up in line with CoH's? I remember it being some ridiculously long lag time (I want to say at least seven months?) with Villains stuck at level 40, and the long wait with nary a peep from Cryptic was what drove me from the game the first time after playing since damn near release.

I believe this was because (and pohsyb can tell us different) CoV didn't hit its sales targets, NCsoft was shoving all its resources towards Tabula Rasa and suddenly Cryptic had to deal with a large resourcing cut. It was around this time CoV's lead Zeb Cook left and CoH/V's full-time development team dropped to about 15 people. It was also likely around this time that Cryptic realised what kind of publisher that NCsoft was and probably started thinking about its next project (which eventually became Marvel Universe Online, then Champions Online).

Pohsyb, if you can, what are your opinions of Jack Emmert? (Not sure if you are working at Cryptic currently.) The long-time fans often like to bash on him for anything and everything, but I wonder how much of that was deserved and how much of that was other factors.

Interesting about Rularuu - that zone was a great idea, but annoying as hell to get around and with the most unfriendly TFs in the game.

For those interested in such things, Matt Miller (Positron) has indicated he'll be answering a lot of fan questions about the lore and what didn't make it or changed sometime this week on the forums.

[Jimbo]

Thanks poyshb for the fun times and great memories.

 I stayed subscribed even when I didn't play regularly since I really thought you all had the best super hero game and one of the best MMO game.  I guess I owe Jack an apology, but I still felt like he was the reason the game slowed down and the slow leveling was placed in the game, of course this was way back in the beginning.

The ideas they have implemented in the game is incredible, from veteran rewards, item shops, things to make you look cool, things to make you level quicker, things to keep you alive longer.  And the fact that you wanted to group because it made things better, not because you had to group.

Gonna miss it.  Thanks again!