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Author Topic: Banned players and hillarity  (Read 17029 times)
kildorn
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Reply #70 on: September 01, 2012, 01:31:38 AM

If I had found the merchant I would have bought any usable items, feeling good that I found this cheap merchant thinking it must be a limited time merchant after an event or have a limited or random supply or something fun and different.

It wouldn't have crossed my mind to doubt the reality the game presented to me, and interpret it as a bug.  I'm not just wired that way, no matter how incredulous that may sound to some people.  I don't implicitly know exactly how the game is meant to be and hence be able to be ever vigilant to notice if the game veers from that path and is hence 'bugged'.

It's pretty blindingly obvious. If you saw a porsche labeled "$100", you'd instinctively know that was wrong. If you've been shopping for karma items since level 10 or so and they've been >20 karma for every minor thing, you'd probably think 21 karma for a level 70 rare is a BIT wrong. What is up for personal debate is if you think it's okay to exploit the bug or not.
satael
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Reply #71 on: September 01, 2012, 01:51:13 AM

1/10th of the normal price might be a special one-time deal but at 1/1000th of normal price (21 vs 21000) you should stop to wonder  awesome, for real
SurfD
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Reply #72 on: September 01, 2012, 02:02:11 AM

It's rather like acting surprised when Blizzard nails you for buying large quantities of Sands of Time off the AH for 100g each.  If you actually have a reason to buy Sands of Time, you are most likely already going to know that the ONLY legitimate source that supplies them is a vendor that sells them for 900g each.  So you have to stop and ask yourself: Why on earth would someone auction something that costs 900G to buy for 100g, resulting in a net loss of 800g per item sold.  If that does not raise any red flags in your mind, you probably deserve to get nailed for buying Duped goods.

Same logic applies to stumbling across an obviously rediculously underpriced item on a vendor somwhere.  Especially if said item is not limited quantity.

Darwinism is the Gateway Science.
Amaron
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Reply #73 on: September 01, 2012, 04:23:22 PM

If I had found the merchant I would have bought any usable items, feeling good that I found this cheap merchant thinking it must be a limited time merchant after an event or have a limited or random supply or something fun and different.

I don't think any of us should pay the price for your inability to see an exploit though.  Call that cruel but these people were going to ruin the entire economy.  If you had gotten involved without ill intent then the ban is just your darwin award.
Secundo
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Reply #74 on: September 01, 2012, 04:44:41 PM

It is fair since you get no penalty if you delete your crap. Just do it.. delete it.. come on, you know you want to be fair, don't you?

"Klingons do not allow themselves to be probed" -Mr Worf
KallDrexx
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Reply #75 on: September 01, 2012, 05:23:52 PM

You all are missing the god damn point.  It doesn't matter if it's obvious or not.  If you bought  more than 50 of the items you obviously knew it was bugged and they gave you a suspension, and gave you a perm ban if you did a magnatude more than that.

They didn't take any action against anyone who did 1-40 purchases.
waffel
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Reply #76 on: September 01, 2012, 06:25:00 PM

They really don't want you getting jute. You no longer can salvage store-bought equipment or karma equipment. Also, they've nerfed a few quick-spawning mob areas I used to farm at. On top of that, you can't even trade for it since the trading post is down.

So now I've found an area where a lot of bandits spawn quickly, and once I clear it out I relog and get put on a new overflow server with all the mobs back. Expecting a 72 hour ban any minute now.
Miasma
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Stopgap Measure


Reply #77 on: September 02, 2012, 09:21:55 AM

Yeah I make sure not to harvest anything in overflow because when I get into the realm I can harvest the same nodes over again and don't want to get banned because it is an obvious exploit.  Ten nodes of strawberries instead of five pfft ban them all.

Same thing with events, once I finished a defense event in overflow then got into my realm and the same event was happening.  It was obviously an exploit so I just sat there not doing anything so that I didn't get banned.  Unfortunately an aura I had on got me bronze credit so I was sure to report myself for that exploit and just sat around doing nothing until I estimated I would have earned the illegal 867 xp by questing.  I also deleted the 68 copper and bought a karma item and destroyed it to get rid of the karma I earned.  Apparently that karma vendor was bugged so I got a 72 hour ban anyways, I should have been more careful.

One time, I completed a zone to 100% and instead of all green items I got a gold.  That was obviously an error on our Arenanet lords so I reported myself and deleted the item.  Then I got extra vigilant and decided maybe I wasn't supposed to get green items either so I deleted them too.  Now whenever I get anything higher than blue I just delete them.

This other time, I received a rifle as a drop but get this - I got it off a spider I killed.  Hahahha, spiders obviously don't carry guns around (lol imagine that!) so I deleted the item and reported myself like a good little peon.

Yesterday I did a world event and at the end of a long chain we killed this shaman dude.  Everybody was happy but then this chest appeared - out of thin air mind you - and everybody rushed over to open it.  The chest was almost as big as the shaman himself so it obviously couldn't have been carried around by the shaman.  I reported as many people as I could who looted from this bugged chest but I don't think I got all of those filthy cheaters.

Being able to get full xp off of any mobs other people are fighting with just one hit is also obviously an unintended mechanic (why should I get all that xp for only doing 1% of the damage lol) so I reported the bug and now I don't use 70% of my class abilities because they are all AoE and I fear hitting a mob someone else is fighting and getting credit where none is due.
trias_e
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Reply #78 on: September 02, 2012, 09:52:23 AM

Guy has got quite the ego if he thinks ArenaNet was actually watching his stream to detect he was using that "exploit".


They probably were.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCocjCCMOXI&list=UUeBMccz-PDZf6OB4aV6a3eA&index=1&feature=plcp  (if you do watch this video the whole way through, ignore the moronic north korea - america analogy for your own benefit).

Krip gets tons of views, and is worth paying attention to what he is doing if you want to catch problems with your game early and make sure they don't get out of control.  If Krip finds a glitch, 4000 people know of it immediately.  

That said, permabanning for him for a ridiculous non-ban-worthy offense probably isn't the best idea.  


Yeah I make sure not to harvest anything in overflow because when I get into the realm I can harvest the same nodes over again and don't want to get banned because it is an obvious exploit.  Ten nodes of strawberries instead of five pfft ban them all.

Same thing with events, once I finished a defense event in overflow then got into my realm and the same event was happening.  It was obviously an exploit so I just sat there not doing anything so that I didn't get banned.  Unfortunately an aura I had on got me bronze credit so I was sure to report myself for that exploit and just sat around doing nothing until I estimated I would have earned the illegal 867 xp by questing.  I also deleted the 68 copper and bought a karma item and destroyed it to get rid of the karma I earned.  Apparently that karma vendor was bugged so I got a 72 hour ban anyways, I should have been more careful.

...

I'm on your side of this fence.  Kripparian's ban is a perfect example of this insane thinking.  Buying crafting components with karma, making recipes, selling it on the vendor isn't cheating.  It's just not.  If it's not intended, that's the dev's problem, not the players.

It's not up to the player to determine some gray area of cheating or not cheating while legitimately using game mechanics.  If I find another efficient way to convert karma to gold, I shouldn't have to worry about getting banned for using it.  If I find the most efficient spot to farm any item, I shouldn't have to worry about getting banned for using it.  That's just fucking crazy.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 10:13:24 AM by trias_e »
waffel
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Reply #79 on: September 02, 2012, 10:01:32 AM

I'm on your side of this fence.  Kripparian's ban is a perfect example of this insane thinking.  Buying crafting components with karma, making recipes, selling it on the vendor isn't cheating.  It's just not.  If it's not intended, that's the dev's problem, not the players.

It's not up to the player to determine some gray area of cheating or not cheating while legitimately using game mechanics.  If I find another efficient way to convert karma to gold, I shouldn't have to worry about getting banned for using it.  If I find the most efficient spot to farm any item, I shouldn't have to worry about getting banned for using it.  That's just fucking crazy.

They seem to have this idea that their economy is some perfectly crafted delicate flower that needs to be protected at all costs.

On top of that, whoever is doing the bannings remind me of heavy-handed forum mods you run into across the internet. I mean how fucked up is it that if you received a perma-ban you can beg them to bring it to a 72 hour ban by going through some long appeal process. How big are their fucking heads?
trias_e
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Reply #80 on: September 02, 2012, 10:12:05 AM

I'm on your side of this fence.  Kripparian's ban is a perfect example of this insane thinking.  Buying crafting components with karma, making recipes, selling it on the vendor isn't cheating.  It's just not.  If it's not intended, that's the dev's problem, not the players.

It's not up to the player to determine some gray area of cheating or not cheating while legitimately using game mechanics.  If I find another efficient way to convert karma to gold, I shouldn't have to worry about getting banned for using it.  If I find the most efficient spot to farm any item, I shouldn't have to worry about getting banned for using it.  That's just fucking crazy.

They seem to have this idea that their economy is some perfectly crafted delicate flower that needs to be protected at all costs.

On top of that, whoever is doing the bannings remind me of heavy-handed forum mods you run into across the internet. I mean how fucked up is it that if you received a perma-ban you can beg them to bring it to a 72 hour ban by going through some long appeal process. How big are their fucking heads?

I think they had an overzealous policy enforcement team, quite possibly power-tripping in classic forum mod fashion, that was reigned in by more reasonable individuals higher up.  I suppose they didn't just want to come out and say 'Well, we went too far, sorry about that'.  Krip's ban really feels like that.  72 hour ban that was upgraded to permaban for no reason?  And then later revoked?  Hmm.  But you're right, they look either like total amateurs or like petty power-trippers.

It's clearly important to be very concerned about these issues.  The problem is they are blaming the players for their own design problems.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 10:20:04 AM by trias_e »
Miasma
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Stopgap Measure


Reply #81 on: September 02, 2012, 10:33:08 AM

They seem to have this idea that their economy is some perfectly crafted delicate flower that needs to be protected at all costs.
I don't usually get all tinfoil hat about rmt, I didn't really care about the rmah in Diablo for instance and I don't think Blizzard intentionally fucks around with things to force anyone to use it.  It was just an experiment, Blizzard doesn't need that money and it probably doesn't even cover their electricity bill.

But the gem store, this is why arenanet will be hyper vigilant about their economy, arenanet needs that money.  Their business model is to get people to buy gems, in the long term most gems will be used to exchange for gold.  If there is too much gold and especially if there are outside gold sellers it is cash out of their pockets.  They have been extremely fast about finding these things and shutting them down.  Despite how many accounts seem to have been hijacked into gold sellers I have yet to see a single in game spam in /map or /w or anywhere.
Quinton
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Reply #82 on: September 02, 2012, 10:37:07 AM

The gem <-> gold exchange really baffles me.

The way the UI works is you punch in the amount of gems you want to sell and it presents you with how much gold you'll get, or the other way around.  The UI also tells you the five day average "value", high and low. 

The bit where you as a user don't get to decide what X gems are worth when exchanging them and instead it's selected for you based on undisclosed factors (presumably at least somehow related to demand or volume, but, really who can say?) bothers me -- that's not how I expect markets to work.
Miasma
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Stopgap Measure


Reply #83 on: September 02, 2012, 02:24:49 PM

I believe it is just seeded with a low value right now, the market part hasn't really happened yet because people don't have enough gold to sell.  The first minute the game was online you could exchange gems for gold even though no one had earned so much as a silver yet.  You are literally buying gold for money from arenanet right now, they just create the gold for you.
Phred
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Reply #84 on: September 04, 2012, 05:21:26 AM

I'm on your side of this fence.  Kripparian's ban is a perfect example of this insane thinking.  Buying crafting components with karma, making recipes, selling it on the vendor isn't cheating.  It's just not.  If it's not intended, that's the dev's problem, not the players.

It's not up to the player to determine some gray area of cheating or not cheating while legitimately using game mechanics.  If I find another efficient way to convert karma to gold, I shouldn't have to worry about getting banned for using it.  If I find the most efficient spot to farm any item, I shouldn't have to worry about getting banned for using it.  That's just fucking crazy.

They seem to have this idea that their economy is some perfectly crafted delicate flower that needs to be protected at all costs.

On top of that, whoever is doing the bannings remind me of heavy-handed forum mods you run into across the internet. I mean how fucked up is it that if you received a perma-ban you can beg them to bring it to a 72 hour ban by going through some long appeal process. How big are their fucking heads?

How the tide has turned. It was only a few days ago that everyone cheered them on over the name boondoggle bannings. Now they are Satan incarnate because they banned some cheaters.
Lantyssa
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Reply #85 on: September 04, 2012, 10:17:49 AM

I'm still cheering.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
cmlancas
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Reply #86 on: September 04, 2012, 11:27:42 AM

I cheer because it's exciting to see CM/GM interaction with the playerbase.  I think transparency is a good thing (and I think the Ghostcrawler beta thread is another example, albeit with a different game).

I think there's really two camps here:  people who are trying to fundamentally break the game, whether using loopholes or exploits, and those who may have experimented a time or two.  The ones who're performing gamebreaking actions receive the swift banhammer without batting an eyelash.  The others need encouragement to report game weirdness where they will be met with some kind of reward for making the game better (a.k.a. doing more QA for us so our business model doesn't suffer dysentery).

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01101010
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You call it an accident. I call it justice.


Reply #87 on: September 04, 2012, 12:19:06 PM

I cheer because it's exciting to see CM/GM interaction with the playerbase.  I think transparency is a good thing (and I think the Ghostcrawler beta thread is another example, albeit with a different game).

I think there's really two camps here:  people who are trying to fundamentally break the game, whether using loopholes or exploits, and those who may have experimented a time or two.  The ones who're performing gamebreaking actions receive the swift banhammer without batting an eyelash.  The others need encouragement to report game weirdness where they will be met with some kind of reward for making the game better (a.k.a. doing more QA for us so our business model doesn't suffer dysentery).


Well this is the difference between finding a bug and reporting it and finding a bug and using it for personal gain.

"I want to watch it all burn in an orgy of smashed Coke machines and weasel rape." - HaemishM
Trippy
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Reply #88 on: September 04, 2012, 12:26:55 PM

Guy has got quite the ego if he thinks ArenaNet was actually watching his stream to detect he was using that "exploit".
They probably were.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCocjCCMOXI&list=UUeBMccz-PDZf6OB4aV6a3eA&index=1&feature=plcp  (if you do watch this video the whole way through, ignore the moronic north korea - america analogy for your own benefit).

Krip gets tons of views, and is worth paying attention to what he is doing if you want to catch problems with your game early and make sure they don't get out of control.  If Krip finds a glitch, 4000 people know of it immediately.  
ArenaNet is catching people by going through transaction and chat logs. That's far more efficient and accurate than reading through forums and watching YouTube videos.
01101010
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You call it an accident. I call it justice.


Reply #89 on: September 04, 2012, 12:39:41 PM

Krip is getting too big for his own good. He has value in that his testing of shit seems to find bugs and unintended things that should not be in a game, but fuckin' hell that man rambles.

"I want to watch it all burn in an orgy of smashed Coke machines and weasel rape." - HaemishM
Outlawedprod
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Reply #90 on: September 04, 2012, 11:33:14 PM

Krip is getting too big for his own good. He has value in that his testing of shit seems to find bugs and unintended things that should not be in a game, but fuckin' hell that man rambles.


Don't worry he might get banned again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbfwFUaaxgs
Amaron
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Reply #91 on: September 05, 2012, 10:52:25 AM

Don't worry he might get banned again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbfwFUaaxgs

All I saw in that was him not understanding the mystic forge?   It's gambling and he got lucky.
Cadaverine
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Reply #92 on: September 06, 2012, 11:01:41 AM

So, in their zeal to stop people from making money by exchanging karma for gold, they also have made the items you craft from karma bought recipes non-salable, and non-salvageable.   Shaking fist

I'm not a developer with ArenaNet, so maybe they're privy to some super secret knowledge about things, and I'm just a dumb schmuck, but wouldn't it have made more sense just to adjust the prices on the items being sold so that it's no longer a viable method of making money, rather than making the karma recipes all but useless outside of twinking alts?  

Edit:  It wasn't even a karma recipe.  It was a recipe bought with cash.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2012, 11:35:45 AM by Cadaverine »

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Ingmar
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Reply #93 on: September 06, 2012, 11:28:08 AM

I'm assuming (hoping?) it is just a temporary measure and they'll flip it back once they've gone through everything again and found all the loopholes.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
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Simond
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Reply #94 on: September 06, 2012, 02:34:03 PM

Why would they do that? It's much simpler and cleaner to just go "Okay, this is the actual game economy and here's the karma economy and never the twain shall meet".

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
trias_e
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Reply #95 on: September 06, 2012, 11:50:59 PM

Guy has got quite the ego if he thinks ArenaNet was actually watching his stream to detect he was using that "exploit".
They probably were.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCocjCCMOXI&list=UUeBMccz-PDZf6OB4aV6a3eA&index=1&feature=plcp  (if you do watch this video the whole way through, ignore the moronic north korea - america analogy for your own benefit).

Krip gets tons of views, and is worth paying attention to what he is doing if you want to catch problems with your game early and make sure they don't get out of control.  If Krip finds a glitch, 4000 people know of it immediately.  
ArenaNet is catching people by going through transaction and chat logs. That's far more efficient and accurate than reading through forums and watching YouTube videos.


Is there a good facepalm gif to use on this site?    

I'll go with   awesome, for real.

The most efficient method by far is prevention.  The best way to prevent the spread of game-breaking issues is to watch power gamers who stream 14 hours a day with 4k + viewers.  Metrics are fucking useless when 4000*x players know your exploit instantly due to someone streaming it.   Your metrics will only tell you that 100000 people exploited your game within 30 minutes of this guy's stream revealing it.

This is why arena.net banned krip for a non-offense initially. They are scared for good reason.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2012, 12:07:01 AM by trias_e »
Chimpy
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WWW
Reply #96 on: September 07, 2012, 12:09:44 AM

Is there a good facepalm gif to use on this site?    

Facepalm

'Reality' is the only word in the language that should always be used in quotes.
lamaros
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Reply #97 on: September 07, 2012, 12:21:26 AM

If I go into the supermarket and pick up a product that is marked as $5, but I know it normally sells for $15 in other shops am I exploiting them by buying it? Is it really my responsibility to ensure that other people don't fuck things up? Or to have an understanding of their pricing scheme and business plan?

It's great they're being pro-active, and they can run their game however they wont, but calling everyone exploiters and cheaters for a fuckup of their own making is absurd.

Expect poison from the standing water.
kildorn
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Reply #98 on: September 07, 2012, 01:06:39 AM

If I go into the supermarket and pick up a product that is marked as $5, but I know it normally sells for $15 in other shops am I exploiting them by buying it? Is it really my responsibility to ensure that other people don't fuck things up? Or to have an understanding of their pricing scheme and business plan?

It's great they're being pro-active, and they can run their game however they wont, but calling everyone exploiters and cheaters for a fuckup of their own making is absurd.

Because it's obviously a damned bug?

Look, with your example if you bought your three gallons of cheap milk, whatever. No harm, no foul, they fucked up. If you however bought 14,000 gallons of said milk because you knew the price was too good to be accurate and then proceeded to resell them at $15/gallon, you're obviously exploiting what you knew was a mistake.

That's the part that gets it from "How should I have known" to "exploiter": you bought THOUSANDS of something you could only ever need ~5 of, and resold them for a profit. Someone who is playing normally and doesn't know the pricing is wrong would simply have bought their 5 or so and gone about their game normally. No normal person would repeatedly go out of their way to a vendor, fill their backpacks up, then port home and transmute them all, and repeat this hundreds of times.

You want to know how we can plainly call them exploiters? Because their behavior once they found the incorrectly priced items was to EXPLOIT the bug, repeatedly and with forethought.

Anet's not running around banning people for buying 5 of them for use on their characters. They were suspending people who bought dozens, and banning people who bought hundreds.
lamaros
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Reply #99 on: September 07, 2012, 01:12:22 AM

Except that they called everyone that, not just those that did it multiple times.

Also if I did said thing in reality I would likely get a promotion or bonus, while the one responsible for fucking up the price copped the heat.

Expect poison from the standing water.
kildorn
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Reply #100 on: September 07, 2012, 01:29:16 AM

Except that they called everyone that, not just those that did it multiple times.

Also if I did said thing in reality I would likely get a promotion or bonus, while the one responsible for fucking up the price copped the heat.

If you resold thousands of something mispriced? You'd both get your milk, and be kicked out of Costco for being a shit customer.

edit: and just to be clear, buying one of them is still exploiting a bug. That's like, the definition. Anet's not stretching the language or anything and threatening to bring people up on charges here. They're punishing the bad offenders. I have no issues with that at all.

Personally, I don't even see how this is a debate. If a cashier forgets to bill me for something, I turn around and go back. That's just who I am. I want both sides of the transaction to get a fair deal. Going "HAHA, you made a MISTAKE! I WIN!" just seems petty and stupid. Especially in a freaking video game.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2012, 01:38:47 AM by kildorn »
trias_e
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Reply #101 on: September 07, 2012, 01:40:59 AM

If a store labels a product at x price a box, where x seems cheap as hell, I'll buy as much as I feel like without regret.  It's not the customer's job to determine an adequate price for an item the store is selling.  Ever.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2012, 01:43:44 AM by trias_e »
trias_e
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Reply #102 on: September 07, 2012, 01:49:49 AM


Look, with your example if you bought your three gallons of cheap milk, whatever. No harm, no foul, they fucked up. If you however bought 14,000 gallons of said milk because you knew the price was too good to be accurate and then proceeded to resell them at $15/gallon, you're obviously exploiting what you knew was a mistake.



Sounds like the basis for making a profitable trade to me.   Ohhhhh, I see.

I understand in an MMO you don't want your users to act like commodites traders, especially if they base their actions on your mistakes, but can you blame the user for doing what is quite natural and legitimate in most circumstances?  Finding the best return for your money isn't usually considered an exploit in reality.
Mosesandstick
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Reply #103 on: September 07, 2012, 01:58:17 AM

What about if an automated pump at a petrol station was charging you a cent per gallon? Use as much as you want?
trias_e
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Posts: 1296


Reply #104 on: September 07, 2012, 02:05:57 AM

What about if an automated pump at a petrol station was charging you a cent per gallon? Use as much as you want?

I don't think you can hold anyone morally culpable for filling up their tank(s).  The only reasonable, stable situation is one in where the vendor is to blame (or gain) for whatever they set up.

If there is somehow an obligation for the customer to decide whether or not they are dealing with a mistake or 'exploit', I don't see how they can certainly distinguish the cheapest gas station in town from a mistake.
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