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Author Topic: Banned players and hillarity  (Read 17025 times)
kildorn
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Reply #35 on: August 30, 2012, 07:27:04 PM

Yeah, that figures. It wasn't "I bought karma items then salvaged them for cash", it was "I bought a blatantly bugged item in bulk to exploit a bug and I'm SHOCKED to find I copped a ban for it"

I spent about 6k karma buying shoes and salvaging them for crafting mats last night.

edit: I do like Anet's response to people going "I did it once, and ate a perma ban. You suck!", they just ask for a character name and will respond with what the ban was for. After the first thread, people seem to have stopped responding with the character names as often. I've always been leery of the "I was banned for nothing" posts, now I'm pretty much convinced they're 99% made up bullshit.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2012, 07:33:03 PM by kildorn »
Amaron
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Reply #36 on: August 30, 2012, 08:22:50 PM

Yea nobody is admitting their player names in that thread now.   What's truly fail though are the amount of people who flat out admit they massively exploited it yet still claim a perma ban is too harsh.  Then the morons saying botting is a worse offense.
waffel
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Reply #37 on: August 30, 2012, 09:53:26 PM

Amateurs. If you're gonna exploit, at least do it in a game where you could make real cash (D3)
Shatter
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Reply #38 on: August 30, 2012, 10:54:19 PM

That reddit thread is the most hilarious fucking thing I have read in 12 years of MMOgaming.  People just getting wrecked by Arenanet.  I love that they are coming down hard on player names, chat and exploits, about time an MMO did this right.  Love the guy who had both accounts terminated, he exploited 300+ on one and 250+ on the other lol 

Player: Hey I only did it like 60 times
Arenanet:  287

BAHAHAHAHA!
Khaldun
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Reply #39 on: August 31, 2012, 09:44:43 AM

I really don't know why MMO devs haven't done this until now. It's not like 16-year old scumbag stealing Mommy's credit card to play a MMO is going to pursue legal action if the devs say in a public forum "You violated the TOS by spamming passages from 'Mein Kampf' for three hours in Stormwind last night". Instead the previous norm has been to let guys like this play the martyr on the forums for days on end, getting the whole playerbase worked up with their tale of woe.

This is how you make culture, really: by telling people what's really going on, and by sticking to your guns on enforcing the minimum decencies that you want to see.
trias_e
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Reply #40 on: August 31, 2012, 10:12:32 AM

I'm not a fan of arena.net considering anyone to have bought a single low karma item an exploiter.  That's bad, bad customer service, and is basically blaming fair players for your ineptitude.
Modern Angel
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Reply #41 on: August 31, 2012, 10:19:50 AM

Bugs happen. If it's a borderline case, I get it. Don't be too harsh. If it's obvious, or if you do it nearly 300 times, fuck you.
Tmon
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Reply #42 on: August 31, 2012, 10:29:15 AM

Bugs happen. If it's a borderline case, I get it. Don't be too harsh. If it's obvious, or if you do it nearly 300 times, fuck you.

Exactly, I don't think I've seen a case in that thread where someone bought 1 item and was banned.  Maybe it happened but I tend to doubt it.  Even buying a second one to 'verify' the bug probably wouldn't get you banned, but the just testing excuse expires quickly and is probably completely dead by the time you are in the teens.
Sky
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I love my TV an' hug my TV an' call it 'George'.


WWW
Reply #43 on: August 31, 2012, 10:31:22 AM

Does the whole charm/dignity/aggression stuff mean anything? I found an npc that just pumped the score of one all the way up and drained the other two.

Khaldun
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Reply #44 on: August 31, 2012, 10:33:11 AM

Read the Reddit thread.The banhammer came down most unforgivingly on assholes who bought hundreds or thousands of them. As it should. In most other MMOs, even when the hole gets plugged, the people who ran the exploit hard usually not only escape a ban, they get to keep their ill-gotten gains. I remember the AC1 devs taking the position on their forums not long after launch that if you found a bad exploit, that was the devs' fault, not the players' fault, and they wouldn't punish you. Which immediately led to an epidemic of people deliberately crashing sub-servers to exploit a dupe bug, and another group of exploiters looking for roll-over bugs to get massive stacks of cash. Even when the bugs got fixed, much of that wealth stayed with the players--and it trained a whole generation of players to go from game to game looking for similar advantages. (SWG, for example, where there was a factory bug that let people hit max skill with weaponcrafting, etc., in three days after launch--after they fixed the bug, they let all those players keep their skills). But I think flagging ALL wealth gained through an exploit is a good idea--because that's the precursor to selectively rolling back all exploit-gained wealth, small and large. Which is the only way to keep people from relentlessly looking for exploits, in the end: if there's a fairly good chance that even if you're not punished, you'll have everything you got that way taken back, then it hardly seems worth the risk and trouble. It only becomes a problem if the flagging starts hitting completely legitimate transactions or activities.
trias_e
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Reply #45 on: August 31, 2012, 10:34:30 AM

Here's the post that pissed me off.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/z44ml/karma_weapons_exploit/c61b9gx

Calling those that bought one item cheaters and exploiters is horseshit.  Buying one or two of these items for personal use wasn't an exploit in my opinion, and absolutely not ban or suspension-worthy in any reasonable way.  Mentioning them in the same breath as those that bought thousands of item for resell is absurd.  
« Last Edit: August 31, 2012, 10:38:00 AM by trias_e »
Khaldun
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Reply #46 on: August 31, 2012, 10:44:27 AM

They're flagging a one-time purchase *as* an exploit. Which is true, even if it wasn't intentional. That's the point: if you say, "Ok, we won't flag any purchase under 15, just purchases over that", you know what happens? Exploiting guilds figure out what the threshold is, coordinate activities under the threshold, and recirculate or launder whatever gains they make. If you want to take money or items out of an MMO economy that you deem stem from a bug or unintentional feature, you have to flag every single copper that came into the economy through the exploit, whatever the intent or awareness behind any given player's actions. If there's an item out there that is crazy OP by accident, you have to take every single one out of the economy, even if some of the people using it are just 13-year olds who bought it because they thought it looked cool and didn't have the faintest idea it was OP or bugged.

If you want a sense of why they have to be relentless about this if they're determined to stop it, look at something like the guy who did it 1,034 times and still says it's unfair that he was permabanned. "I don't agree that first time offenses should be met with a permaban, yes. That's pretty standard in the mmo market. However, their rules are their rules, I can't argue against that," says the exploiter. E.g., this is someone who has learned that you usually get away with it, and that even when you're permabanned, if you're quick enough to launder or circulate the gains, you can usually get back much of what you stole from guildies or collaborators when you come back under another account name. I really appreciate the zero-tolerance approach here.
trias_e
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Reply #47 on: August 31, 2012, 10:49:30 AM

"If you want to take money or items out of an MMO economy that you deem stem from a bug or unintentional feature, you have to flag every single copper that came into the economy through the exploit, whatever the intent or awareness behind any given player's actions. If there's an item out there that is crazy OP by accident, you have to take every single one out of the economy, even if some of the people using it are just 13-year olds who bought it because they thought it looked cool and didn't have the faintest idea it was OP or bugged. "  

I certainly agree that they need to rectify the situation, delete purchased items, etc.  However, their tone in this case should be "We fucked up, our bad."  Instead of "if you bought one of underpriced items these you are a horrible cheater."  The player doesn't deserve to be blamed in the circumstance quoted above, nor do they deserve to be labeled a cheater if they bought one or two of these items.  
« Last Edit: August 31, 2012, 10:51:01 AM by trias_e »
kildorn
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Reply #48 on: August 31, 2012, 10:50:42 AM

Here's the post that pissed me off.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/z44ml/karma_weapons_exploit/c61b9gx

Calling those that bought one item cheaters and exploiters is horseshit.  Buying one or two of these items for personal use wasn't an exploit in my opinion, and absolutely not ban or suspension-worthy in any reasonable way.  Mentioning them in the same breath as those that bought thousands of item for resell is absurd.  

It kinda was, though. Buying one or a set of them, they were obviously not correctly priced. They were listed as 21 karma. A crude salvage kit in the newbie zones is 28 karma. It's not something you should ban for if they just bought for personal use, but they should get pretty stern warnings about abuse of bugs leading to suspension or termination.

This isn't some really odd scenario where something just happened to work out in your favor and you don't know that secretly the boss was bugged and didn't use half his abilities because you were standing on a ramp. It was blatantly wrong, and people took advantage of it.
Modern Angel
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Reply #49 on: August 31, 2012, 10:53:40 AM

So we're basically arguing over maybe hurt feelings. Big boy pants, wear them.
trias_e
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Reply #50 on: August 31, 2012, 10:57:25 AM

Here's the post that pissed me off.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/z44ml/karma_weapons_exploit/c61b9gx

Calling those that bought one item cheaters and exploiters is horseshit.  Buying one or two of these items for personal use wasn't an exploit in my opinion, and absolutely not ban or suspension-worthy in any reasonable way.  Mentioning them in the same breath as those that bought thousands of item for resell is absurd.  

It kinda was, though. Buying one or a set of them, they were obviously not correctly priced. They were listed as 21 karma. A crude salvage kit in the newbie zones is 28 karma. It's not something you should ban for if they just bought for personal use, but they should get pretty stern warnings about abuse of bugs leading to suspension or termination.

This isn't some really odd scenario where something just happened to work out in your favor and you don't know that secretly the boss was bugged and didn't use half his abilities because you were standing on a ramp. It was blatantly wrong, and people took advantage of it.

There's no bug being abused.  They were mispriced items, but it's not the job of the player to determine whether items are mispriced.  If the item was listed as 1000 karma and sold for 21, then there's a bug being abused.

So we're basically arguing over maybe hurt feelings. Big boy pants, wear them.

I'm arguing over what I consider a disgraceful way to treat your customers.  Anyways, continue the circlejerk.
proudft
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Reply #51 on: August 31, 2012, 11:21:57 AM

Um, an item being listed for 1/1000 of its proper cost is most certainly a bug.  If it was listed for 0, would you still say it wasn't?  It basically was 0.  I have like 5000 karma on a level 20 guy, anyone who's been catassing has waaaay more than that.

They're treating their customers as though the actions they take have an effect on others who play the game.  Because they do.  It fucks up the economy when stuff is generated out of basically thin air, regardless of if it was a dozen or a hundred, because it was multiplied by thousands of people doing it.

I personally find their reaction to this refreshing and promising instead of the usual 'blah blah we'll rollback, don't do it again'.   It was obviously wrong and it's analogous to going 200 mph on a deserted highway.  Just because no one is watching you at the time doesn't mean it isn't wrong and if you do get caught, you're damn well going to be punished.

Lantyssa
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Reply #52 on: August 31, 2012, 11:29:39 AM

It's telling players to think and take some responsibility for their actions.  They're being up front about it and setting expectations for the rest of the life of the game.

Go ArenaNet!  <cheerleader>

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
ffc
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Reply #53 on: August 31, 2012, 11:41:10 AM

Buying one or two of these items for personal use wasn't an exploit in my opinion, and absolutely not ban or suspension-worthy in any reasonable way.  Mentioning them in the same breath as those that bought thousands of item for resell is absurd.  

I read that suspensions were handed out to players buying > 40, and bans to players buying > 1000.  These were players likely knowing they were taking advantage of something and ran straight to the vendor, guessing there would be no real punishment.
Miasma
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Stopgap Measure


Reply #54 on: August 31, 2012, 11:57:17 AM

So I have to worry about being banned for buying a single item off of a vendor now?  If you bought a hundred or whatever, fine you knew it was a bug, but you guys are going way over the line of putting the onus on the player for buying and using a single upgrade.  It's absurd that I now have to look at an npc vendor and try to figure out if arenanet fucked up or if the prices are correct.

Here are a few ways I could explain away the low price and assume they knew what they were doing, just off the top of my head.
- It is a reward for reaching a certain level.
- I unlocked it for exploring the city I bought it in.
- It is priced low because I'm only supposed to buy it if I accidently deleted or chose a different personal story quest reward wrong.
- It is temporary like all the buffs you can buy.
- Assume that the item is only cosmetic in nature like city clothes.
- Maybe it is just a transmog skin.
- There are about a hundred items in the game that when used just change your action bar, it must be priced so low because that's what this does and it is as worthless as those wooden planks I keep on accidently picking up.

This is Arenanet's mistake and banning or threatening to ban players for buying and using one item is retarded.
Amaron
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Reply #55 on: August 31, 2012, 12:04:09 PM

So I have to worry about being banned for buying a single item off of a vendor now? 

I think some people are misunderstanding.  They're just telling people after the fact that they know who you are and that you're expected to delete the stuff.   It's not an official warning on your account or anything.
Miasma
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Stopgap Measure


Reply #56 on: August 31, 2012, 12:17:45 PM

Imagine you bought and equipped one item assuming Arenanet knew what they were doing, then read thier post.
Quote
IMPORTANT NOTE: You've probably already tonight's update: http://redd.it/z44ml Please note that anyone who used the exploit has been flagged. If you used it 1 time or 1,000 times, you have cheated items or wealth in your inventory.

You must delete all gold and items gained through the use of the exploit now, or immediately upon the expiration of your suspension, or immediately upon account reinstatement after you have filed a formal appeal and after your account has been reinstated.

If you gained items on a small scale and were not suspended, consider this episode a very firm warning. Delete the items and gold immediately no matter how many or how few.
You just called a cheater, exploiter told that you are a very bad person and that you should delete something that is a result of their mistake.  I for one would demand my fucking 24 karma back since it wasn't my error.

Also, fuck them for being so incompetent that they have to use god damn reddit instead of their own forums or the game itself.  We are expected to go to some third party website for critical news and warnings about how we might be banned due to ingame bugs?
WayAbvPar
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Reply #57 on: August 31, 2012, 12:19:00 PM

So I have to worry about being banned for buying a single item off of a vendor now?  If you bought a hundred or whatever, fine you knew it was a bug, but you guys are going way over the line of putting the onus on the player for buying and using a single upgrade.  It's absurd that I now have to look at an npc vendor and try to figure out if arenanet fucked up or if the prices are correct.

Here are a few ways I could explain away the low price and assume they knew what they were doing, just off the top of my head.
- It is a reward for reaching a certain level.
- I unlocked it for exploring the city I bought it in.
- It is priced low because I'm only supposed to buy it if I accidently deleted or chose a different personal story quest reward wrong.
- It is temporary like all the buffs you can buy.
- Assume that the item is only cosmetic in nature like city clothes.
- Maybe it is just a transmog skin.
- There are about a hundred items in the game that when used just change your action bar, it must be priced so low because that's what this does and it is as worthless as those wooden planks I keep on accidently picking up.

This is Arenanet's mistake and banning or threatening to ban players for buying and using one item is retarded.

Agreed.

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

Always wear clean underwear because you never know when a Tory Government is going to fuck you.- Ironwood

Libertarians make fun of everyone because they can't see beyond the event horizons of their own assholes Surlyboi
Minvaren
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Reply #58 on: August 31, 2012, 12:35:39 PM

I have to admit, I loved the way they were handling the CS on Reddit.  So much, that I debated checking the game out for that alone.

This is Arenanet's mistake and banning or threatening to ban players for buying and using one item is retarded.

...until I read this, where they took a sharp 180 and floored it.  Did they hire Milo from EQ or something?

"There are many things of which a wise man might wish to remain ignorant." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
tazelbain
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tazelbain


Reply #59 on: August 31, 2012, 12:41:16 PM

I am fine with this.  People get butt hurt way too easy.

"Me am play gods"
Amaron
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Reply #60 on: August 31, 2012, 12:42:56 PM

This is Arenanet's mistake and banning or threatening to ban players for buying and using one item is retarded.

...until I read this, where they took a sharp 180 and floored it.  Did they hire Milo from EQ or something?

They've done no such thing.
Ingmar
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Reply #61 on: August 31, 2012, 01:34:45 PM

Christ, nobody has been banned for one item. Overreaction, thy name is internet. I can't believe we're still getting our underwear in a twist over the world 'exploit', it's 2012. An exploit does not have to be intentional to be an exploit, and an accidental exploit doesn't make you a cheater. I still don't really understand how people can have so much ego tied up in these things that they get personally insulted by these general messages.

Then again I felt and still feel that way about all the people howling about Ghostcrawler.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Modern Angel
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Reply #62 on: August 31, 2012, 01:40:48 PM

I still don't really understand how people can have so much ego tied up in these things that they get personally insulted by these general messages.

Straight up.

Though I completely agree with the absurdity of using Reddit as your main communication vehicle for serious shit. Seriously, get the forums up.
01101010
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You call it an accident. I call it justice.


Reply #63 on: August 31, 2012, 01:42:22 PM

Seriously, get the forums up.

Exactly. Makes me wonder how much of it is tied to the Trading Post.

"I want to watch it all burn in an orgy of smashed Coke machines and weasel rape." - HaemishM
Ingmar
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Reply #64 on: August 31, 2012, 01:44:18 PM

How it looks to me: Their shitty back end appears to be fucking everything up that's tied to accounts. Forums, trading post, guild repping/membership, etc., all probably comes down to a fucked up database implementation somewhere on the back end. Too much load for what they built, probably. That kind of thing can take a while to fix.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
KallDrexx
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Reply #65 on: August 31, 2012, 01:50:20 PM

Yeah, and since the trading post, probably the whole gem trading interface, etc are all web interfaces I have a feeling that their web team and their game dev team are the same (especially since the forum uses game data).  Therefore it actually probably does drain resources from game dev to get the forums working efficiently.
kildorn
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Reply #66 on: August 31, 2012, 02:02:17 PM

So I have to worry about being banned for buying a single item off of a vendor now?  If you bought a hundred or whatever, fine you knew it was a bug, but you guys are going way over the line of putting the onus on the player for buying and using a single upgrade.  It's absurd that I now have to look at an npc vendor and try to figure out if arenanet fucked up or if the prices are correct.

Here are a few ways I could explain away the low price and assume they knew what they were doing, just off the top of my head.
- It is a reward for reaching a certain level.
- I unlocked it for exploring the city I bought it in.
- It is priced low because I'm only supposed to buy it if I accidently deleted or chose a different personal story quest reward wrong.
- It is temporary like all the buffs you can buy.
- Assume that the item is only cosmetic in nature like city clothes.
- Maybe it is just a transmog skin.
- There are about a hundred items in the game that when used just change your action bar, it must be priced so low because that's what this does and it is as worthless as those wooden planks I keep on accidently picking up.

This is Arenanet's mistake and banning or threatening to ban players for buying and using one item is retarded.

Nobody is being banned for buying one item. People are being suspended for buying a LOT of items (as in, more than your one character could possibly use with every weapon set they can equip), banned for buying absurd amounts. The people suspended are being told to delete shit when they log back in, because it wasn't 72 hours of time out and you can keep the goods.

The items weren't a transmog, they had stats. They were clearly mispriced. This is a bug on Anet's part, and the message being sent is one that is true in every MMO ever: if you encounter an advantageous bug, report it and move on. Exploiting it will lead to punishment. This seems pretty common sense to me? I do not find an obvious bug in a multiplayer game and then camp on it for hours expecting no repercussions.
Trippy
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Reply #67 on: August 31, 2012, 02:50:37 PM

Karma exploit perma-ban changed to temp ban if you delete your ill-gotten gains and file an appeal:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/z44ml/karma_weapons_exploit/
Shatter
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Reply #68 on: August 31, 2012, 10:39:39 PM

So basically all the other vendors had prices set to normal, this ONE vendor had them set at 1/1000 of the price of all the other vendors and you think people didnt realize this?  All I want at the end of the day is people to know if they find and abuse and exploit Arenanet will bitch slap yo punk ass so think twice. 
Wasted
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Reply #69 on: September 01, 2012, 12:31:19 AM

If I had found the merchant I would have bought any usable items, feeling good that I found this cheap merchant thinking it must be a limited time merchant after an event or have a limited or random supply or something fun and different.

It wouldn't have crossed my mind to doubt the reality the game presented to me, and interpret it as a bug.  I'm not just wired that way, no matter how incredulous that may sound to some people.  I don't implicitly know exactly how the game is meant to be and hence be able to be ever vigilant to notice if the game veers from that path and is hence 'bugged'.
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