Pre-load 5.0.4 Live

[Ironwood]

My Flabber is Ghasted.

I don't agree with you pair at all.

But that's ok.  I'm probably not right.

[Fabricated]

Warrior - I really like the tanking changes. So much so that I'm planning on playing a Prot Warrior or a Brewmaster for MoP. Prior to the patch most of your abilities were about generating threat. Threat hasn't been a concern for the class for over a year, so it didn't feel like there way much benefit to attempting to play well rather than just watching tv and tapping your Devastate and Thunderclap buttons every 10 seconds. Now there is a purpose to everything you do (either building rage or defensive rage spenders), which I find much more compelling.

Tanking has been the easiest job (usually) for the longest time, but it's gonna be interesting to see if people can walk and chew bubblegum at the same time now that they need to keep an eye on like a dozen stupid mitigation abilities rather than just shield wall/last stand for the shitty parts of a fight.

I just don't like it. It's not more or less of a valid design choice than the previous way tanking worked tbh; I just don't like it because it's too different. Everything feels too different. It feels like they're trying to do with WoW classes what they did with D3 classes.

[cmlancas]

My Flabber is Ghasted.

I don't agree with you pair at all.

But that's ok.  I'm probably not right.

These are the MMO boards, where people can come to two opposite and completely valid conclusions!

I know some other folks who aren't particularly thrilled with priests, but most of those qualms come from not being able to spam their spell of choice.

What specifically is blah about priest talents for you?  Do they just not feel...talenty enough?  An analogy would be like decorating a Christmas tree at Rockefeller Center -- adding three ornaments toward the top just isn't very noticeable.

[cmlancas]

I just don't like it. It's not more or less of a valid design choice than the previous way tanking worked tbh; I just don't like it because it's too different. Everything feels too different. It feels like they're trying to do with WoW classes what they did with D3 classes.

I think there will be a fair amount of this.  What do you think is the middle ground?  Tanking has been exceptionally boring for awhile.

[Fabricated]

I just don't like it. It's not more or less of a valid design choice than the previous way tanking worked tbh; I just don't like it because it's too different. Everything feels too different. It feels like they're trying to do with WoW classes what they did with D3 classes.

I think there will be a fair amount of this.  What do you think is the middle ground?  Tanking has been exceptionally boring for awhile.

I dunno to be honest. I get why they're doing it. I didn't mind being able to watch TV and do taxes while tanking 5-mans but I think people who raid wanting to be a bit more engaged is a perfectly valid desire.

I'd settle for a mix of rage generation by damage and ability usage. Little less rage generation from ability use, and a very small amount of rage from incoming damage (like 1 rage per 2% of your life or something). You're never really "starved" for rage to do something unless you're stupidly mashing rage-wasters, and the occasional spike in damage might give you enough to hit that shield barrier or shield block a moment sooner.

[Rokal]

I dunno to be honest. I get why they're doing it. I didn't mind being able to watch TV and do taxes while tanking 5-mans but I think people who raid wanting to be a bit more engaged is a perfectly valid desire.

On this topic, I doubt the tanking changes will impact normal/heroic 5-mans much. Most of the aoe threat abilities (thunderclap, thrash, etc.) are completely free at this point. Since heroics will be 4.3 difficulty, you probably won't need to use your cooldowns to survive either. Your primary role will be setting the pace of the group, making pulls, and (easily) keeping threat just like it was in Cata.

[Ingmar]

I haven't gotten around to trying the warrior changes (I'm a Diablo 3 'deal' sucker so I do have the option - will get around to it at some point) but on paper and after my 15 min or so of MoP beta, the prot warrior playstyle changes look and feel horrible. I really like the talent system change, but the changes to tanking and rage mechanics don't look fun to me at all. Good thing Jedi Knights are pretty much exactly pre-this warriors, I guess.

[Paelos]

What's so different? Less worry about spamming crap? More situational crap?

[Lastwolf]

Blood DK's are insane right now, dps is pretty much only a small notch below any other dps, whereas my paladin struggles to limp over 15k.

Yes, well, maybe they went a 'little' overboard with making Heart Strike hit 4 targets + Rolling Blood + Crimson Scourge 

Not that I'm complaining about being #5 on DPS when I was tanking in LFR the other night    Maybe Paladins are just doing it wrong. 

I upped my Hit and expertise to 7.5% it helped a lot, I pulled 38k on DW HC until they had me switch to Ret for the extra dps.

[luckton]

Blood DK's are insane right now, dps is pretty much only a small notch below any other dps, whereas my paladin struggles to limp over 15k.

Yes, well, maybe they went a 'little' overboard with making Heart Strike hit 4 targets + Rolling Blood + Crimson Scourge 

Not that I'm complaining about being #5 on DPS when I was tanking in LFR the other night    Maybe Paladins are just doing it wrong. 

I upped my Hit and expertise to 7.5% it helped a lot, I pulled 38k on DW HC until they had me switch to Ret for the extra dps.

Well yeah, having Hit and Exp capped are pretty much 'must haves', esp. for melee/magic hybrids like Shamans and Paladins.  Once you get those two capped, you're also spell hit capped for the 15% as well, which I'm pretty sure it still a good portion of Pally damage.

[DraconianOne]

Would anyone care to hit me up with a Scroll of Resurrection? I may even sub for a month to make sure you get the mount thing. 

[Lastwolf]

Would anyone care to hit me up with a Scroll of Resurrection? I may even sub for a month to make sure you get the mount thing. 

I already have it, but if you're EU I can.

[DraconianOne]

I am EU. What do you need? Char name and server?

[Lastwolf]

Aye, that or bnet e-mail, prolly safer with the former though.

[DraconianOne]

DM'd. Thanks. 

[Ginaz]

Maybe this has been mentioned before, and correct me if I'm wrong, but is heroic strike gone for warriors?  If so, what do we use instead?

[Ironwood]

Nope.


Edited to Add :  I'm also looking at these 'banners' we get at level 87.  They're kinda just shouts, aren't they ?  Gimmicky Shouts.

[El Gallo]

Gimmicky short-duration totems.  Fuck em.

[Merusk]

Funny thing you should mention short-duration totems... 

(Fuck the new hyper-short same-cooldown elemental totems double.)

[Ironwood]

Yeah, Shammy totems are a bit of a joke now.

[Fordel]

Just now? 


Even when they have actually been really really good, they're annoying to use.

[luckton]

Aye, I can't say I'll miss the totem droppings and such.  A lot of times in 5-mans I'd rarely ever see the Shamans in my group use them.  That they made a lot of the good stuff to be always-on passives is pretty nice, IMO.

[luckton]

Looks like Bliz caught onto DK Blood tanks topping the damage meters.  Heart Strike just got nerfed by over 50% in the damage department 

[Ironwood]

Overdue.

[cmlancas]

Overdue.

Agree.  We had a DK tank doing close to 50k on Madness.

I do like the change though.  I feel like tanks should be DPSing meaningfully in fights.

Just not stacking insane amounts of vengeance.   

[Pennilenko]

I still think paladin and warrior tanks need a little bit of dps love.

[Miasma]

I haven't played since GW2 came out, how legitimate is all the forum screaming about that cross realm phasing stuff?  I will have to start harvesting again come mists and would be upset if there were no nodes to be had.  Will the new zones be cross realm or just the old low level ones?

I will be particulary annoyed coming off of GW2's refreshing resource nodes which stay spawned just for me regardless if someone else also harvests it.

[Merusk]

I haven't played since GW2 came out, how legitimate is all the forum screaming about that cross realm phasing stuff?  I will have to start harvesting again come mists and would be upset if there were no nodes to be had.  Will the new zones be cross realm or just the old low level ones?

I will be particulary annoyed coming off of GW2's refreshing resource nodes which stay spawned just for me regardless if someone else also harvests it.

Depends on how busy the zone is. I'd expect all expansion zones to be your-realm-only but the older zones will be the ones you run in to the cross-realm crap.

It's not a problem unless you get out-of-country players.  The language barrier on top of the usual internet dickishness causes a new breed of cockmunchery.

[cmlancas]

It's not a problem unless you get out-of-country players.  The language barrier on top of the usual internet dickishness causes a new breed of cockmunchery.

I thought they were localizing this, but I admit this is US-centric.  Anyone know how this works for EU servers?

Also, I'd rather have people speaking a language I don't understand than internet dickwads I do understand.

[Merusk]

Everything I've seen says it's not localized.  You can get any of the South American units on US servers.  I understand the same being true on the EU servers.  After all, if you still have to maintain 5 different-language servers there's no cost savings on server gear.

It's not the speaking of the language, it's that the language barrier means people tend to treat each other as badly as you'd treat an opposing-faction player.  Node jacking, quest mob traffic, spawn denial, etc.

[Ashamanchill]

So, having played enough of this patch to give a comment on it now, it's time to speak my piece.

My Bear Druid has been my main (and for a long time my only played) character for a long time, but you know what, fuck it. I'm done with him this patch. This new active tanking thing is fucking retarded. Blizzard's pathetic attempt to make tanking 'meaningful' has resulted in the exact opposite, at least on Guardian druids. All you do is wait until you have 60 rage, then use your tanking button. You can fucking macro it in. This is what we gave up all our passive mitigation for? or in other words, the effects of the gear we collected? We now get to hit a button on a very specific condition? Fuck you Blizz.

Oh wait up Ash! what about magic heavy fights? Oh yeah, I forgot. This is where it gets really crazy (and super meaningful as well!!!). You spend your rage on a totally different tanking button. Oh, well then.

I know I'm being harsh and vitriolic, but the whole thing just feels so....lame. Not overly difficult or overly simple, just languishing the dead wasteland of blech.

That being said, I am still playing the game and having a blast after coming back from Guild Wars, all because of my Enhancement Shaman. Holy shit that spec is fun, enen though, yeah; totems are a big fat joke now.

[Jimbo]

Thanks for the heads up Ash, was going to respec my druid into bear, but I'll keep cat and resto for now.

Been leveling a hunter with a friend who play's horde.  It has been a fun ride.  I like the new hunter feel and talents, but on dungeons I feel like a third wheel till an over pull or the boss, I'm sure that will be better at higher levels.

My son is leveling a warlock from scratch and is really enjoying it too.

[SurfD]

My druid has alwasy been Boomkin / Bear.  Bear cause it almost always guarantees me a spot in a raid, and Boomkin for the fun of Blowing shit up by shooting stars out of my ass.  However, I do sort of agree with Ash now,  Bear tanking went from interesting, to super fucking boring.  I might be able to get behind the active mitigation model if we actually had more shit to spend our resources on (like DK's, who have something like 8 different tanking cooldowns).  As it stands though, with only 3 things to spend rage on: More Dodge, More healing / Health, or Damage, there really is no complexity to it at all.

I very well may go Boomkin / Tree for MoP.  Still guaranteees me a raid spot (even more so, because raids always need more healers then tanks), but with the added benefit that most of my Boomkin gear has stats beneficial to Trees on it anyway.

[luckton]

By default, DKs get Vampiric Embrace,  Icebound Fort and AMS as 'tanking cooldowns'.  We can pick up AMZ for raid-wide mitigation (which does come in handy, I might say), and Conversion (admittedly, I've thought about picking this up, but Death Pact just does the job 10x better without having to sacrifice my RP generation) but that's about it.

Rune Tap?  A minor self heal that requires me to sacrifice a Blood/Death rune that could be better used for other things, esp. if it's a Death Rune.  I only smash this if Will of the Forsaken procs, and when that happens it's actually worth it.

Blood Parasites?  Another minor raid-heal that I have no control over.  If it procs, it procs.  Much like how Leader of the Pack works for Druids  

What are the other DK abilities that you consider to be "tanking cooldowns' am I missing?

[SurfD]

It is more along the lines that allmost all of your stuff plays better with your rune resource system to make things more interactive.  As a rage tank, I basicly have 3 things (as mentioned above) to spend rage on.
- A large, short boost to dodge
- A self heal (or if glyphed, a short duration Increases in healing recieved)
- A damaging mele attack.  Thats it.

LotP is completely passive, basicly just a "here, here is some heal over time you get every few seconds as long as you are bashing something".  Sure, bloodworms is technically similar, but at the same time, much much more interesting in action. Plus the worms also dps, and probably do better healing (since i dont believe spells cast by DPS casters can trigger LoTP, makeing it completely useless for casters / healers).

Other then that we have:
- Bark Skin: Short is cooldown damage reduction
- Survival Instincts: bascily improved version of barkskin with a longer cooldown.
- Might of Ursoc: temproary boost in total HP.

We have no Raid utility tank cooldowns like AMZ, Rallying Cry, or the Paladin one (think paladins have a raid wide tank like cooldown, unless that was removed / moved to a different spec), unless granted through tier bonus like with t13.   I would love to have an AMZ like ability as a druid.

As it stands now, we are basicly the kings of Physical Damage tanking, but all our cooldowns are boring as hell.  Hell, even our mastery is now boring as hell.  Whee, more armor.  At least with old savage defense, Mastery could really effect how efficient your tanking was in some situations.  Now it's just: you take a bit less mele damage passively, whoop.

The worst part is, we have absolutely nothing we can do to prevent big unavoidable incoming damage we know is coming (like impale).  We can only Mitigate the hit and then heal up afterwards.  We cant stack an absorb shield or the like (like you could with old savage defense).

Someone on the mmo-champ forum had an interesting thought that they could make a glyph for Frenzied Regen that allowed overhealing from FR to act as an absorb.  Which would be really neat i think, and add an interstign element to Druid Tanking.