Pre-load 5.0.4 Live

[luckton]

Stampeding Roar can be pretty effective if used correctly within the raid., as there are a number of encounters that use mass snare/root stuff, and some that do it prior to using a big direct damage ability too.

And you're getting Symbiosis in MoP, which the FSM only knows how broken that'll make encounters.  Not only will you be giving a free cooldown spell to a class you're casting it on (which will always be a spell related to that class' active spec), but you'll be getting a free cooldown that the class you're benefiting uses (which will always be a spell related to your active spec).  In the case of Guardian Druids, that will almost always be a tanking/mitigation ability (Paladins/Warlocks/Shaman Guardian Symbiosis grant you offensive/utility spells, but will still help with tanking)

[Rokal]

My Bear Druid has been my main (and for a long time my only played) character for a long time, but you know what, fuck it. I'm done with him this patch. This new active tanking thing is fucking retarded. Blizzard's pathetic attempt to make tanking 'meaningful' has resulted in the exact opposite, at least on Guardian druids.

I logged into my druid on patch day to assign talent points and redo my bars. When I switched to my bear spec, I had to check the spell book 4-5 times to make sure I was not missing something. I only had one worthwhile thing to spend my rage on most of the time? That couldn't possibly be right. It seemed over-simplified like I had to be missing some abilities.

I thought about it a bit though, and this is how bear tanking has always felt to me. I think Blizzard didn't add a ton more buttons you needed to hit because they didn't want to alienate people that liked what had been the bear style of tanking. It's always seemed boring and plain, with few buttons to press and even fewer that were actually worth pressing. Almost all mitigation for bears in Cata was passive or outside of the player's control (savage defense). In MoP, it'll be the same style compared to other tanks. Hell, look at the new bear mastery which is just a flat increase to armor.

I can understand if you think bears are boring to play in MoP (they are) but it seems to me like there is still a need for an option of that style of tanking in the game. Warriors, DKs, and Monks might be more your style of you're looking for something more active (I don't really know anything about the paladin changes).

[Lakov_Sanite]

I was always under the impression that bear tanking was boring as well, like...throughout the history of wow.

[Merusk]

Based on the little amount of time I've played mine (and it's only 5-mans, not raids)  not much changed with pally tanking.  You can spam Consecrate a lot more like the BC days but it's still build-up HP via Shield procs/ judgement/ hammer or crusader and then use on Word of Glory or Shield of Righteous.

Of the talent changes, I've found the barrier one to be the most useful.  It lasts for 30s and pulses the damage shield every 6s.   I macroed it to cast on the target of my target and voila, fire and forget.   I'm considering doing a castsequence macro with judgement just to remove a button.

Been leveling a hunter with a friend who play's horde.  It has been a fun ride.  I like the new hunter feel and talents, but on dungeons I feel like a third wheel till an over pull or the boss, I'm sure that will be better at higher levels.

What level are you?  Trap launcher & explosive trap along with multishot means no more 3rd wheel.   If you're CCing mobs you shouldn't be having a problem feeling like your AOE is subpar, which is the only time I ever felt the 3rd wheel syndrome.

[Ashamanchill]

I thought about it a bit though, and this is how bear tanking has always felt to me. I think Blizzard didn't add a ton more buttons you needed to hit because they didn't want to alienate people that liked what had been the bear style of tanking. It's always seemed boring and plain, with few buttons to press and even fewer that were actually worth pressing. Almost all mitigation for bears in Cata was passive or outside of the player's control (savage defense). In MoP, it'll be the same style compared to other tanks. Hell, look at the new bear mastery which is just a flat increase to armor.

I'm not going to lie, yeah they were like that. But that was at least in the days of 'the more gear you get, the better tanking you get from your stats'. Now, you can get better gear, reforge into dodge all you fucking want, and that little number will hardly move. Because, now if you want that, you press a button instead. With this being the 'changing tanking up' patch, I though they were going to give us 'choices on how to spend our rage' or w/e Ghost Crawler said. Nope. Literally two buttons.

And the new bear mastery is a bad joke. Someone should really be fired for that. It's the kind of mastery that only someone who raids world firsts, and switches out their tanks at every fight could love. The rest of us get the most boring mastery in the game.

I dunno man, I'm sure on paper you could prove how bears are the exact same as they've always been, but they really don't feel that way. They feel a lot (heres that word again) lamer then they used to be.

[SurfD]

Stampeding Roar can be pretty effective if used correctly within the raid., as there are a number of encounters that use mass snare/root stuff, and some that do it prior to using a big direct damage ability too.

And you're getting Symbiosis in MoP, which the FSM only knows how broken that'll make encounters.  Not only will you be giving a free cooldown spell to a class you're casting it on (which will always be a spell related to that class' active spec), but you'll be getting a free cooldown that the class you're benefiting uses (which will always be a spell related to your active spec).  In the case of Guardian Druids, that will almost always be a tanking/mitigation ability (Paladins/Warlocks/Shaman Guardian Symbiosis grant you offensive/utility spells, but will still help with tanking)

Execpt that Stampeding Roar isnt really a "tank" ability, as much as it is a "generic druid" ability.  Hell, with the glyph, pretty much every spec of druid can (and probably will) run around with it glyphed for encounters where movement speed matters.

As to Symbiosis, if the list from http://www.wowhead.com/spell=110309 is any indication, Most of our choices as a tank boil down to "yet more Bark Skin buttons", some Slows (which might be valueable on some fights, but seem kind of redundant what with Infected Wounds), some Extra AoE ish damage (which we dont really lack what with Thrash / Swipe being pretty much spammable), a "rage tap", Fear Ward, and Spell Reflect on a 2 minute cooldown with 1 charge.   Out of that entire list, Spell Reflect and Fear ward are the only ones that looks even remotely new and refreshing as a Druid Tank Button.

[Ginaz]

So, is a 120K+ execute crit (arms warrior) the new normal???  Because thats what I hit a boss for in an HoT heroic.

Edit: I got a 200k+ execute on Deathwing in a LFR last night.

[Ragnoros]

Yeah, this (crazy abilities balanced around +5 level health pools) happens in every end of x-pack/new x-pack transition patch. I remember in one of the old transitions my warrior with the (at the time) new sudden death talent I could randomly proc an execute and basically one shot someone. It was fun for a week or so.

[Ironwood]

I remember as a warrior the first time they gave us devastate.  It was so fucking strange doing ANY dps whatsoever, so you'd just run around questing and devastating fucking mobs.

Now, it seems silly, but it was HUGE at the time.  Ditto the Vengeance changes much much later.

[Lakov_Sanite]

"Three sunders! No dps until then!"  It's all I remember vanilla warriors doing.

[Selby]

We were fail.  We had to wait for 5 sunders.

[Simond]

Darion Mograine is sick of Moon Guard Goldshire's shit: http://imgur.com/a/CEzuc
(There was a bug with DK diseases that let them land on friendly targets with a /cast macro).

[El Gallo]

All you need to do is infect one guy, given how fast diseases spread through that particular zone 

[luckton]

The Fall of Theramore scenario is unlocking a day early, and should be available this afternoon in the US.  Might be avail around now in the EU.  Party on, people.

[Merusk]

Whee!

[luckton]

A list of loot from the scenario.  Note that some of it is Horde/Alliance specific.  And that these loots at the listed ilvl will only be available from now till next Tuesday, when the scenario goes to lvl 90 only.

[Merusk]

A list of loot from the scenario.  Note that some of it is Horde/Alliance specific.  And that these loots at the listed ilvl will only be available from now till next Tuesday, when the scenario goes to lvl 90 only.

Well the listed iLevel is pointless as I had quest items in the second zone at higher ilevel and the 3rd zone gave me a level 419 blue item.   The question really is: are these unique visual pieces or will the same models be used in the L90 scenario.

[luckton]

...the same models be used in the L90 scenario.

Pretty sure it's this. 

[Rendakor]

Most of them aren't even unique models; I clicked a couple and wowhead has a bunch of "Same model as..." options for all the ones I hit. They might be recolors (can't tell yet) but they're not real new art.

[luckton]

The Theramore stuff is fan--service/RP stuffs for the classic Human vs. Orcs thing.  I was waiting to get the two-hander axe from the scenario for my DK tank, but then the 397 from DS finally dropped for my guild run a couple weeks ago 

I'll probably try to snag a couple of the one-hander DPS swords and the DPS helm for my off-spec.

[Sheepherder]

As it stands now, we are basicly the kings of Physical Damage tanking, but all our cooldowns are boring as hell.  Hell, even our mastery is now boring as hell.  Whee, more armor.  At least with old savage defense, Mastery could really effect how efficient your tanking was in some situations.  Now it's just: you take a bit less mele damage passively, whoop.

You are fucking crazy if you think that +armor% is not a fucking huge, possibly game-breaking mechanic.  That it is boring is undeniable, but then so is the warrior and paladin mastery, and the DK mastery may very well end as the worst of the four due to scaling issues.

[Ingmar]

All he said was that it was boring, not that it wasn't effective. Which is pretty much the most important thing.

[luckton]

Rolled through the scenario a few times.  Pretty short and sweet; as a Blood DK, I just rolled diseases through essentially all of the trash at the same time and won 

I'm sure it'll be more difficult at lvl 90, but for now, I can see how these little scenarios can be a nice diversion at 90.  Not sure I'm down with getting just a random loot bag that 'might' have an item in it (i.e. I ran Theramore three times, got a one-handed tanking sword in the third bag while in my DPS spec), but for the risk/reward ratio, I approve.  For now.

[SurfD]

All he said was that it was boring, not that it wasn't effective. Which is pretty much the most important thing.

Well, to be honest, I am not sure exactly how "effective" it will be.  If there would ever be a point where stacking mastery would be encouraged for tanking over, say, dodge.  Especially with the deminishing returns on Armor, and the fact that there is very likely an armor cap on what we can reach, not to mention that for all general purposes, all it really does is make up for our lack of a shield.  DK's have their runeforge, druids had our Agility to Armor conversion, which let us make up the armor gap present from not having a shield.  We no longer have that Agility to armor conversion any more.  Unless our scaling up bonus in bear form from leather was calculated to roughly balance out to the same amount of armor as a plate tank with shield.

[Fabricated]

There theramore thing was kinda boring honestly but it's a decent way to get big lore stuff across and hand out loot.

[Sheepherder]

All he said was that it was boring, not that it wasn't effective. Which is pretty much the most important thing.

He said the current mastery isn't efficient.  It is the most efficient tank mastery in the game since they put (effectively) diminishing returns on block via the multiple roll mechanic.  There also might be actual diminishing returns on block (some people are saying this), though if so the tooltips haven't been changed yet.

My ilevel 325 druid has more passive always on physical damage reduction than my ilevel 372 warrior.

[Paelos]

There theramore thing was kinda boring honestly but it's a decent way to get big lore stuff across and hand out loot.

Yeah I did it with two buddies. I can't tell what the bomb was supposed to be. A Goblin Nuke?

[SurfD]

All he said was that it was boring, not that it wasn't effective. Which is pretty much the most important thing.

He said the current mastery isn't efficient.  It is the most efficient tank mastery in the game since they put (effectively) diminishing returns on block via the multiple roll mechanic.

How would it be the most efficient mastery?  There is a flat cap on Armor (you can never reduce physical damge to less then 75% through armor), and the diminishing returns for adding armor the closer you get to that cap are probably much more punitive then any diminishing returns on block.  Given how high our armor already is, with the Guardian passive boosts from Bear Form and Thick Hide, the mastery is pretty much just a bit of added filler.  You are never likely to reforge away from mastery, but you are never likely to reforge TO it either.

Edit: Did some asking around, and it seems like bears now have a LOT more armor then plate tanks, from what i can see.  Was with a warrior in a DS pug, and he had around 45k armor, with shield.  Said his DK (who was geared a bit better) is sitting at around 55k.  My bear is currently sitting at 68k (almost 71% phys reduction).  Not sure how much of that is from mastry, and how much from our passives.

[Sheepherder]

How would it be the most efficient mastery?  There is a flat cap on Armor (you can never reduce physical damge to less then 75% through armor), and the diminishing returns for adding armor the closer you get to that cap are probably much more punitive then any diminishing returns on block.  Given how high our armor already is, with the Guardian passive boosts from Bear Form and Thick Hide, the mastery is pretty much just a bit of added filler.  You are never likely to reforge away from mastery, but you are never likely to reforge TO it either.

For the same reason that armor rating has always simulated as the most valuable tank stat in the game until the block changes in 4.0, which have been nerfed to shit in 5.0.

A tank with 60% damage reduction has 250% of his displayed health as effective health.
A tank with 65% damage reduction has 286% of his displayed health as effective health.
A tank with 70% damage reduction has 333% of his displayed health as effective health.
A tank with 75% damage reduction has 400% of his displayed health as effective health.

The only fly in the ointment is magic damage, which is still not even close to a majority of the damage taken by tanks and likely never will be unless they want to completely marginalize the effect of all tank gear.

[SurfD]

Right, but the question I am asking is what the actual return on investment from our mastery is.  Bears have always statistically had very high armor.  Adding more when we are already sitting on the top end of the diminishing returns for armor curve means that we need way more mastery per point of return then someone else, with a different mastery.

[Azazel]

"Three sunders! No dps until then!"  It's all I remember vanilla warriors doing.

I remember that. It was annoying. Nowadays I hate the rage changes, the too many goddamned buttons (almost all of which are mildly useful) problem and the fact that they took away one of my actual most useful buttons - my AE taunt.

[Sheepherder]

Right, but the question I am asking is what the actual return on investment from our mastery is.  Bears have always statistically had very high armor.  Adding more when we are already sitting on the top end of the diminishing returns for armor curve means that we need way more mastery per point of return then someone else, with a different mastery.

Incorrect.

The armour DR curve is constructed so that each point grants the same benefit as the last point in term of time to live right up until the 75% cap.  This has been mathematically explained since 2007 at the earliest.  Presumably the other DR curves are similarly weighted.

[DraconianOne]

There theramore thing was kinda boring honestly but it's a decent way to get big lore stuff across and hand out loot.

Yeah I did it with two buddies. I can't tell what the bomb was supposed to be. A Goblin Nuke?

A mana-bomb apparently.

Disappointed to see that they kept a high iLevel requirement for the scenario this week. Is there a realistically quick way of gearing up a new 85 who is a lot rusty?

[Ironwood]

The scenario was utterly boring and pedestrian.  It also required a 30 minute wait and dropped no loot for me.

I'm not even sure what the point of it was, really.

[luckton]

Yeah I did it with two buddies. I can't tell what the bomb was supposed to be. A Goblin Nuke?

/lorelol beyond the /spoiler

The scenario was utterly boring and pedestrian.  It also required a 30 minute wait and dropped no loot for me.

I'm not even sure what the point of it was, really.

I don't understand the queue times myself.  You just need three people that now how to kill things.  You don't need a tank or healer (though they do make things SIGNIFICANTLY easier).  Even when I was partnered with one guildie last night, we were in the queue for a good 10 minutes without getting a hit.

As far as the content, Bliz's stance is that this wasn't supposed to be some sort of grand preamble to MoP; just a small taste of the mountain of content to come next week.  Scenarios in general are just supposed to be short little romps of content to give people something do to while trying to convey a story or dish out the lore.  One of the scenarios is actually the MoP version of the Ring of Blood thing they've done since BC.