SWTOR Goes F2P in the Fall

[Zetor]

Was reading the SWTOR forums, to see how things are going, and the chatter their seems to feel numbers are still trending downwards even after the merges.

To be fair, that's probably the case for the official forums of every MMO released, ever. Every game is terrible, people are quitting all of them in droves because of (change / design element I disagree with) including the poster's 500-person guild and everyone on their friends list, etc.

At least at launch, SWTOR's forums were extra "special" since they seemed to include the worst from the SWG forums, WOW forums, and even DAOC vnboards...

[Amaron]

Was reading the SWTOR forums, to see how things are going, and the chatter their seems to feel numbers are still trending downwards even after the merges.

They haven't done any content in a while.  Every MMO trends downward like that.  I doubt it's anything like it was before the merges when people were quitting due to dead servers.  You can't expect them to have growth when the game is about to become free for anyone with the patience to wait either.

[March]

You honestly think there's a large number of currently-subbed WoW players that never hit max level? 

I am not currently at max level and am subscribed...but then I don't really like WoW because of the unrelenting focus on Raiding...so yes.

Then again, I did hit Max in Vanilla, and TBC, and Cataclysm...so depending what you mean by "never" I might not qualify.

WotLK 5-mans was about the most group content I'd ever want... the constant push to get me to raid (and the ultimate abandonment of "world" "character" or any other aspect of the RPG part) is what basically killed WoW for me.  The absence of any sort of reliable alternative effectively made me give them money to validate a game design I increasingly hate. (Oh, and curses to you D3 for perpetuating that lie even further).

As Sky mentions above, GW2 has the _potential_ to get the balance back in line with where I want it to be... we'll see.

[Merusk]

You honestly think there's a large number of currently-subbed WoW players that never hit max level? 

There are, yes.  Blizzard said as much a while back which I found when trying to research my 90% number - which I also remember seeing from Blizz.  (and now can't find.) 

I'll admit I meant 90% of max-level characters and used 90% as hyperbole because I couldn't remember the exact %.  It's probably fairly lower than that but it was definitely over the minority and beyond the 'niche' level people love to throw-about of 3%.   Hell, more than 3% of players have completed hardcore modes of raids so raiding in general has to be greater than that.

[Paelos]

Just by using WoW Progress, which is an Armory parser, you can get a general idea of what encounters look like and who is raiding.

Almost 62,000 groups have done the normal versions of the T13 raids, about 5,000 of those in 25 mans. So that's about 700,000 characters that have completed stuff, with some obvious overlap in those people that raid on more than 2 characters. Even if we say it's actually 500,000 people, that's 5.5% who still raid normally.

I don't think it's unrealistic to assume that LFR is dramatically more popular. Maybe 5-10x as much.

[Venkman]

I'm the first to admit that I'm so old school it's hard for me to imagine concepts introduced for a few hundred thousand players 12 years ago can actually be popular for many millions now. Raiding certainly has gotten more approachable in the last decade. But none of the core concepts I bullet'd above have changed.

So has the actual percentage of max-level players in MMOs who raid gone up? Or is the percentage the same but the raw numbers up because more actual players have hit the endgame?

Would love to see real numbers, but I'm not sure there's anything public, nor anyone willing to break NDAs 

[Ingmar]

The % of raiders in my experience is HUGELY higher than when I started playing MMOs. No comparison to be made.

EDIT: And I should add, the core concepts that you bulleted above HAVE changed. LFR in WoW does not require a ton of coordination, or prep time. And that blame thing has never been universal.

[Venkman]

EDIT: And I should add, the core concepts that you bulleted above HAVE changed. LFR in WoW does not require a ton of coordination, or prep time. And that blame thing has never been universal.

Never experienced LFR so I'll guess it's all that. But question: someone who hits max level in WoW can go right into raiding and make a meaningful contribution? I  assume there's still the "tier"ing sequence of dungeons?

[Sheepherder]

Never experienced LFR so I'll guess it's all that. But question: someone who hits max level in WoW can go right into raiding and make a meaningful contribution? I  assume there's still the "tier"ing sequence of dungeons?

For the moment there are some obligatory dungeons you have to gear up in.  LFR only came with the last patch, with a minimum item level requirement just under what you obtain in the heroics that came in the same patch.  So it's gearing up through heroics and justice point vendors for a short while depending on how hardcore you are at running dungeons.

Next expansion it might be a possibility to finish off the 85 -> 90 level grind, grab some quest blues and rep gear, and go straight into casual mode raiding; it really depends on what Blizzard sets as the minimum gear level and what's easily obtainable.

[Rendakor]

I am not currently at max level and am subscribed...but then I don't really like WoW because of the unrelenting focus on Raiding...so yes.

Then again, I did hit Max in Vanilla, and TBC, and Cataclysm...so depending what you mean by "never" I might not qualify.

I'm guessing when you said you hit max level in Cata, you meant WotLK; otherwise, you're max level for another few weeks since MoP isn't out yet. And when I said never, I meant never as in never at the max level at the time. People who were level 60 in vanilla have hit max level, people who hit 60 in WotLK have not.

[Merusk]

I'm the first to admit that I'm so old school it's hard for me to imagine concepts introduced for a few hundred thousand players 12 years ago can actually be popular for many millions now. Raiding certainly has gotten more approachable in the last decade. But none of the core concepts I bullet'd above have changed.

So has the actual percentage of max-level players in MMOs who raid gone up? Or is the percentage the same but the raw numbers up because more actual players have hit the endgame?

Would love to see real numbers, but I'm not sure there's anything public, nor anyone willing to break NDAs 

The concept for the few hundred was in the days when the games were worlds and engulfed life and required many, many, many hours.  Sandboxes are dead, the masses are involved and want something simple and entertaining and raiding fits that bill better.  As I've said for the last decade, I've got a job I don't need my game to tell me I have to do a second to enjoy myself.

Raiding these days is probably one of the most casual things you can do and is more like any other hobby than it was when EQ was king and you had to be online 24/7 or else someone else would snipe the kill.  It's scheduled, it's instanced (so no sniping) and it takes as long as your group of friends decides to do it. 

With the LFR tool it's even more accessible.  You decide to hop on, hit the tool, wait a little while and then hop in.  If it's not working for you or you have to leave, you hop out.  It's as seamless as any other matchmaking game and therefore accessible to anyone who put their time in to gear-up.  Which is  the same process on a smaller-group scale.

So when your game is fundamentally the same thing for two portions, you're going to wind-up with a larger percentage.

Actual numbers? Nobody's telling us outside of blurbs once in a while so you've got to get lucky or parse data.  Which Blizzard makes pretty freely available, just not at the account level, only on the character level.

[Venkman]

I only raided through BC so things could have changed. But from what I remember, raiding required a bit of the pre-raiding prep and a guild if you wanted any chance of success. Neither is out of reach if you're willing to put in the time. That I could raid at all was an indication of how not-EQ1 things had become. Shit, that I hit the max level at all was an important distinction. During the one brief moment in my life where I could have excluded the world after hours and put in a respectable amount of time to make the upper tiers of the earlier games, I wasn't yet even a gamer. As my wife likes to remind me

I'm curious about modern WoW and whether Raids have just become another set of dungeons, with differences being subtle. How do random player groups take to instruction, and are things structured enough for a modicum of success? I still remember early MC raids that were disasters for a well organized guilds first figuring it out, and pickup raids going all clownshoes on the first two guards. But even WoW stopped being "new" seven years ago, so maybe that much has changed?

[Simond]

I only raided through BC so things could have changed. But from what I remember, raiding required a bit of the pre-raiding prep and a guild if you wanted any chance of success. Neither is out of reach if you're willing to put in the time. That I could raid at all was an indication of how not-EQ1 things had become. Shit, that I hit the max level at all was an important distinction. During the one brief moment in my life where I could have excluded the world after hours and put in a respectable amount of time to make the upper tiers of the earlier games, I wasn't yet even a gamer. As my wife likes to remind me

I'm curious about modern WoW and whether Raids have just become another set of dungeons, with differences being subtle. How do random player groups take to instruction, and are things structured enough for a modicum of success? I still remember early MC raids that were disasters for a well organized guilds first figuring it out, and pickup raids going all clownshoes on the first two guards. But even WoW stopped being "new" seven years ago, so maybe that much has changed?

Heroic raids are about the same difficulty as the old Vanilla/harder TBC raids, normal raids are doable with PUGs if the players know what they are doing (and therefore very doable with a half-way decent guild), and LFR raids are about on a par with late WotLK Heroics i.e. if you can grasp "don't stand in the fire" it helps...but isn't strictly necessary.

[Amaron]

Heroic raids are about the same difficulty as the old Vanilla/harder TBC raids, normal raids are doable with PUGs if the players know what they are doing (and therefore very doable with a half-way decent guild), and LFR raids are about on a par with late WotLK Heroics i.e. if you can grasp "don't stand in the fire" it helps...but isn't strictly necessary.

The later heroics in WotlK weren't that simple really.  People just learned the mechanics and did them for the most part.  The dps was fairly forgiving, but you still needed one good dps to understand the fight.

[Venkman]

Nice. I enjoyed the bit of raiding I did, though my guild was generally so far ahead of me I'm kinda just the sympathy case they let tag along. Hard to imagine things have gotten better since moar dots. But it's been years since I've raided, so I'll just shut up about what used to be. As soon as ya'all get off my lawn!

[palmer_eldritch]

The first expansion pack has been announced - one new planet and a level cap increase of five levels. Doesn't sound like a lot but it's fairly cheap, at $9.99 for subscribers and $19.99 for f2p players (that's the pre-order price anyway).

There is a video advertising the expansion, but it doesn't tell you much:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbNzUwBIbNU

I haven't found a release date but they say they will release more information "over the next few months". But pre-orders are open so you can hand over your money right now if you want to:)

[Tannhauser]

Yeah, we've been talking about it down in the gaming graveyard section.  Already pre-ordered.  Five new levels with full voice over story quests.  The storylines and crafting are what's important to me.  Oh and you can have same-sex imperial entanglements.  Pubs too I guess.

[Shatter]

I ordered, started playing again since I hit the wall pretty hard in GW2.  As enjoyable as that game was I just got home one day and thought "I just cant be bothered" so I fired TOR back up.  Servers are busy enough and I still get a kick out of the PvP...also appears they softened the PvP gear grind which makes me want to get some alts geared.  Wll see how long TOR can hold my attention again but they havent released a date for this "expansion" as far as I am aware and site says spring :(  I am interested to see what they do for WvW style PvP, Im guessing instanced WvW sort of like GW2 which I would be ok with if its fun enough.  I can see me switching between TOR and GW2 alot this year. 

[Ginaz]

The first expansion pack has been announced - one new planet and a level cap increase of five levels. Doesn't sound like a lot but it's fairly cheap, at $9.99 for subscribers and $19.99 for f2p players (that's the pre-order price anyway).

There is a video advertising the expansion, but it doesn't tell you much:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbNzUwBIbNU

I haven't found a release date but they say they will release more information "over the next few months". But pre-orders are open so you can hand over your money right now if you want to:)

Yo.
http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=22841.0

[palmer_eldritch]

The first expansion pack has been announced - one new planet and a level cap increase of five levels. Doesn't sound like a lot but it's fairly cheap, at $9.99 for subscribers and $19.99 for f2p players (that's the pre-order price anyway).

There is a video advertising the expansion, but it doesn't tell you much:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbNzUwBIbNU

I haven't found a release date but they say they will release more information "over the next few months". But pre-orders are open so you can hand over your money right now if you want to:)

Yo.
http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=22841.0

There might be people interested in this who would never go near the SWTOR gaming graveyard forum (or maybe I'm the only one :shrug: )