SWTOR Goes F2P in the Fall

[Sjofn]

I don't think anyone here was arguing housing or whatever makes a shitty game not shitty. That's some bizarre conclusion you drew on your own, dude.

[Paelos]

It's not a zero sum game either. It can add to retention of a game that's actually a game. Sure, you don't just toss a turd out there and say BUT WE HAVE HOUSING. That's insane.

I mean shit, Skryim has housing and it's a single player game. Have you not seen the crazy amounts of You Tube videos people post on how they've decorated their Skyrim houses with shit?

[Nevermore]

If I want to jerk off to my own awesomeness, I can do it on the Armory.  Otherwise give me something to log in and do that contributes to the game in a meaningful way.  If that means that the game falls on a less worldly location on the continuum, then them's the brakes.

You're projecting an awful lot of your own preferences into a very large number of people.  Just because you don't like something doesn't mean the majority of people don't like it, nor does it mean it's a waste of resources to develop something just because it's not your own personal cup of tea.

[Amaron]

Musashi did you by chance think Vanguard was a great idea but housing shitted on it or something?   

[Musashi]

I don't think anyone here was arguing housing or whatever makes a shitty game not shitty. That's some bizarre conclusion you drew on your own, dude.

Housing is one of the few mechanisms that can both provide something to do other than quest/combat grind AND gives the player something they can make uniquely theirs. It makes the game more worldy, and makes the gameworld more interactive and even sticky for those even remotely involved with it. ANY online RPG hoping to collect subscriptions should have it (and appearance slots) and WoW's lack of it might be its biggest weak spot.

Part of the problem is that the developers of these "successful" MMOs are of the hardcore raiding ilk. A lot of the WoW developers are cut from that mold. That's why it took them so long to understand that people REALLY wanted appearance tabs.

They simply don't see value in cosmetic items, and the playerbase suffers for it until they get bitchslapped with facts or start losing cash. They only cared about the grind, the raids, the gear, and the "challenge" of the game. That's what they do, so that's what they assume all people do.

And they did it to the tune of 10 million subs.  I have a feeling they'd do it again.  Wanna bet Titan doesn't give two shits about housing?  Same guys working on it.

[Amaron]

Horse crap.  I defend WoW and games like it plenty but you are putting on the blinkers big time.  The market has spoken multiple times on this issue now.  The raider crowd is not supplying the monthly subs and that's all there is to it.  You can bitch all you want but here come the pokemon. 

The days where WoW devs could get away with total bullshit because suits didn't want to rock the boat are over.

[Musashi]

Uh.  Wut?  The market has spoken multiple times on this now.  It's said "MEH!" to anything that wasn't WoW.  WoW isn't just "the raider crowd."  It's everyone who's willing to pay a monthly subscription for an MMO.  And they're decidedly NOT paying for worldy games.  I'm not making this shit up.  I don't need a chart.  We've all seen it.

Look, I'm not saying you can't have your games with housing bullshit.  Just that you shouldn't complain that you're not the majority of the market, and you never will be.  It would be great if the worlds of explorers and achievers could somehow magically meet in the middle.  But I think at this point we're delving into politics.  Aaaand I cease to care.

[palmer_eldritch]

Uh.  Wut?  The market has spoken multiple times on this now.  It's said "MEH!" to anything that wasn't WoW.  WoW isn't just "the raider crowd."  It's everyone who's willing to pay a monthly subscription for an MMO.  And they're decidedly NOT paying for worldy games.  I'm not making this shit up.  I don't need a chart.  We've all seen it.

Look, I'm not saying you can't have your games with housing bullshit.  Just that you shouldn't complain that you're not the majority of the market, and you never will be.  It would be great if the worlds of explorers and achievers could somehow magically meet in the middle.  But I think at this point we're delving into politics.  Aaaand I cease to care.

What multiple people are saying is that housing works well and is popular among achievers in diku games when it`s been tried.

Also, you have some kind of obsession with shit.

[Amaron]

Uh.  Wut?  The market has spoken multiple times on this now.  It's said "MEH!" to anything that wasn't WoW.  WoW isn't just "the raider crowd."  It's everyone who's willing to pay a monthly subscription for an MMO.  And they're decidedly NOT paying for worldy games.

The WoW market has said MEH to focusing on the raider crowd which views other game features as stuff for second class citizens.   That's decidedly the attitude you're taking and your reason for doing so is "WoW got away with that for years!".

You're other problem is you have housing tied to worldy in your brain for some reason.  The two have nothing to do with each other.  A sandbox element is not the same thing as a sandbox game.  EQ2 housing (which is what people keep bringing up) is not "worldy" in any way shape or fashion.

It's simply an appearance tab with more slots.

[Kageru]

It's simply an appearance tab with more slots.

Non functional, private only, appearance tab. The only use I've had for housing is storing the housing drops the game (EQ2. Lotro, Aion) thinks I care about before I start just vendoring them. Maybe it would make sense in a crafting oriented game...

[Amaron]

It's simply an appearance tab with more slots.

Non functional, private only, appearance tab.

That's a solved problem as has been pointed out NUMEROUS times already.

[Paelos]

Uh.  Wut?  The market has spoken multiple times on this now.  It's said "MEH!" to anything that wasn't WoW.  WoW isn't just "the raider crowd."  It's everyone who's willing to pay a monthly subscription for an MMO.  And they're decidedly NOT paying for worldy games.  I'm not making this shit up.  I don't need a chart.  We've all seen it.

You are right on one part, and then you're trying to springboard from that into a completely bizarre and contrary opinion. The world has not been impressed with anything but WoW on a large scale. That is your correct assertion. However, the world isn't even that impressed with WoW anymore.

Wow isn't just the raider crowd - Exactly, and that's part of the reason the Cataclysm numbers went into the toilet. The developers thought they could focus entirely on the DIKU treadmill portion of the game (leveling fixes, new zones, more raids, harder content) and look what happened. People bailed in record numbers. More people left the game than SWTOR had continued subs on average. They were looking for more from WoW than just the raiding and dungeons shit after 7 years.

They are decidedly NOT paying for worldy games - And they are decidedly NOT paying for a standalone dungeon treadmill either. That's why WoW is trying to combine both. They are realizing there is a significant portion of their customer base that wants more diversion stuff.

[Lantyssa]

But it only does that for the very small fraction of the player-base who care to fiddle with it.  In games of yore, that percentage was higher by virtue of being smaller and wholly populated by a different demographic.

So you're advocating getting rid of all raiding then?

[eldaec]

Don't be ridiculous, the only reason people play multiplayer games is for <feature> that <sperging poster> likes.

[Paelos]

Don't be ridiculous, the only reason people play multiplayer games is for <feature> that <sperging poster> likes.

It does ring a bit of "we can't be all things to all people" doesn't it. Except in this case, the suggestion is "fuck all the people, then."

[Rokal]

Wow isn't just the raider crowd - Exactly, and that's part of the reason the Cataclysm numbers went into the toilet. The developers thought they could focus entirely on the DIKU treadmill portion of the game (leveling fixes, new zones, more raids, harder content) and look what happened. People bailed in record numbers. More people left the game than SWTOR had continued subs on average. They were looking for more from WoW than just the raiding and dungeons shit after 7 years.

Apparently most were looking for more raids and dungeons (and other traditional DIKU content), they just wanted raids or dungeons that were more accessible. 4.3 wasn't some revelation of innovative content. It was just easy/fast dungeons and raids, which became very popular to run and stopped the subscription bleed.

I don't think you can look at Cata and say "See, here is an argument against just making traditional grindy end-game content like raids and dungeons". The majority of development time was spent on revamping the 1-60 leveling experience, which should have been the sort of thing that appealed to solo players or explorers and other players that don't care for raids or dungeons. Instead the new 1-60 was met with a collective "meh" by players, who blazed through it if they played it at all and then quickly ran out of content they could do or wanted to do at level cap. It's not too much unlike SWTOR when you think about it. Both releases placed a large emphasis on leveling content to the detriment of end-game content. It's easy to praise SWTOR for having leveling content that is actually entertaining and tries to do some things different, but I'm guessing EA/Bioware wish they invested more in end-game content so that more people would have subbed longer at 50.

The lesson from both games is clear: innovation is fine, but not at the expense of content that will keep people subscribed. I'm happy SWTOR allocated their development resources where they did now that it's going F2P, but why their subscription model failed seems pretty obvious.

[Malakili]

I think its important to realize what end game content really is.  Frankly, when I think of raiding, I impulsively think of WoW 40mans, or even old school EQ stuff, but that isn't raiding anymore and sometimes I forget that.  So when I hear "most people want raiding" my impulsive response is "no they don't"  But frankly, I think that  what most people seem to want is content they can beat, get cool stuff, and feel powerful.  People don't like losing.  For all the fact that Wrath became boring as hell to me when it was just blast through heroics in 20 minutes and farm badges, I believe that was the height of WoW's sub numbers.  People want to feel awesome, even when they aren't, and that made them feel awesome.

[Paelos]

Apparently most were looking for more raids and dungeons (and other traditional DIKU content), they just wanted raids or dungeons that were more accessible. 4.3 wasn't some revelation of innovative content. It was just easy/fast dungeons and raids, which became very popular to run and stopped the subscription bleed.

You make a key point there. People just want accessible content across all levels. I think a good gameplan for Blizzard is to give a player a chance to always be upgrading. Whether that means more achievments, pets, collections, houses, raids, dungeons, gear, displays, pvp, etc. Always be upgrading. That's what keeps people playing.

I think that was why the revamp wasn't as awesome as they wanted. One, they admit it took entirely too many resources to finish that revamp, and two, new leveling content was poorly tuned in terms of xp gain over the zone.

[cmlancas]

new leveling content was poorly tuned in terms of xp gain over the zone.

This is very, very true.  It's amazing how quickly some zones progress (I'm looking at you, all of Northrend) and how slow others are (Tanaris and Un'Goro).

I'm guessing the "leveling experience" will become trivialized over the next few years, though.

[Musashi]

Apparently most were looking for more raids and dungeons (and other traditional DIKU content), they just wanted raids or dungeons that were more accessible. 4.3 wasn't some revelation of innovative content. It was just easy/fast dungeons and raids, which became very popular to run and stopped the subscription bleed.

You make a key point there. People just want accessible content across all levels. I think a good gameplan for Blizzard is to give a player a chance to always be upgrading. Whether that means more achievments, pets, collections, houses, raids, dungeons, gear, displays, pvp, etc. Always be upgrading. That's what keeps people playing.

I think that was why the revamp wasn't as awesome as they wanted. One, they admit it took entirely too many resources to finish that revamp, and two, new leveling content was poorly tuned in terms of xp gain over the zone.

I'm okay with everything Rokal said, as he probably said it better than I would have.  I think that sometimes what the average MMO gamer thinks he or she wants isn't really what they want.  I think sometimes sperging posters like me or others point to a feature and say this x, y, z is why it failed.  But when I think about game-play mechanics in a game, I kind of feel like they're really not just a feature.  It's the whole shebang.  Without a compelling risk/reward dopamine delivery system (ie game), you have nothing that any other feature will help.  On the other hand if you do have a game that's accessible across a given spectrum demographic, you can then start adding in all the ancillary crap I don't care about that your little heart desires.

[Ingmar]

Well, to bring it back to SWTOR, though, that's kind of the problem - ancillary stuff to do when you're not doing leveling content, battlegrounds, or dungeons/raiding. They have the basic features, and are adding more things in those categories as they go, there's just not a lot of other things to do other than some basic dailies. Systems like housing would fill out the in between bits, and they need to find something that would leverage the companions more at max level too. (Stealing skirmishes from LOTRO comes to mind.)

[Amaron]

Apparently most were looking for more raids and dungeons (and other traditional DIKU content), they just wanted raids or dungeons that were more accessible. 4.3 wasn't some revelation of innovative content. It was just easy/fast dungeons and raids, which became very popular to run and stopped the subscription bleed.

I thought Blizzard just posted another huge loss of subs?  Not that I disagree with your point.  People just want crap to do at 85 or whatever max level is.  In a way Cata failed because it took more stuff away (Wrath content) than it gave.

[Musashi]

Well, to bring it back to SWTOR, though, that's kind of the problem - ancillary stuff to do when you're not doing leveling content, battlegrounds, or dungeons/raiding. They have the basic features, and are adding more things in those categories as they go, there's just not a lot of other things to do other than some basic dailies. Systems like housing would fill out the in between bits, and they need to find something that would leverage the companions more at max level too. (Stealing skirmishes from LOTRO comes to mind.)

My understanding, though I haven't played all the way to endgame, is that endgame content is somewhat lackluster be it raid content or what have you.  I think whether that content interests you or not, it's better for everyone when there is a healthy endgame with content that is accessible to everyone should they care to play it.  THAT's what pays the bills.  Having something to do in between game-play sessions presupposes people are motivated to play at all.

[Ingmar]

The endgame dungeons are a little thin in number, although they've added a couple since release and more are apparently coming. The lack of a dungeon finder until fairly recently didn't help with that. AFAIK the actual raiding part of the community is pretty healthy.

[Rokal]

I thought Blizzard just posted another huge loss of subs?  Not that I disagree with your point.  People just want crap to do at 85 or whatever max level is.  In a way Cata failed because it took more stuff away (Wrath content) than it gave.

Well, 4.3 was released in December of last year. It might have been popular content, but not for over 8 months.

[Amaron]

My understanding, though I haven't played all the way to endgame, is that endgame content is somewhat lackluster be it raid content or what have you. 

It's only lacking on the casual end is the problem.  Stuff like raiding/dungeons etc are all quite fine and healthy.  They should probably adjust their reward formula concerning dungeons but that's just fiddling with numbers.  What they lack is all that ancillary stuff you can do in WoW just to fill a day.

[eldaec]

But when I think about game-play mechanics in a game, I kind of feel like they're really not just a feature.  It's the whole shebang.  Without a compelling risk/reward dopamine delivery system (ie game), you have nothing that any other feature will help. 

Now this is true. But you can build that reward cycle around any feature or features you want, then market to the fuckers who want that.

And imho that is what SWTOR didn't do. They never really committed to the kotor style story+dress up, nor did they fully commit to EQ style raiding.

They needed to pick a fucking horse. Personally I think they'd be idiots to be doubling down on a space WoW already has - but that would have been smarter than this half in half out bullshit.

[Tannhauser]

Make your starship your house.  Let you customize it and add lots more space content.  That would be 'Star Warsy' and would differentiate themselves in a fantasy-choked MMO field.

-Smuggling missions for smugglers
-Diplomacy/Intimidation missions for Jedi/Sith
-Ambush/assassination/spying missions for Agents

etc.

[DraconianOne]

Well, to bring it back to SWTOR, though, that's kind of the problem - ancillary stuff to do when you're not doing leveling content, battlegrounds, or dungeons/raiding. They have the basic features, and are adding more things in those categories as they go, there's just not a lot of other things to do other than some basic dailies. Systems like housing would fill out the in between bits, and they need to find something that would leverage the companions more at max level too. (Stealing skirmishes from LOTRO comes to mind.)

Jesus, yes - skirmishes with companions would be fucking awesome.

[Venkman]

But when I think about game-play mechanics in a game, I kind of feel like they're really not just a feature.  It's the whole shebang.  Without a compelling risk/reward dopamine delivery system (ie game), you have nothing that any other feature will help. 

Now this is true. But you can build that reward cycle around any feature or features you want, then market to the fuckers who want that.

Be sure to understand your market though, and not just the hyped-up yokels who early register on the forums you shouldn't have put up in the first place*. Otherwise you end up spending cycles on game mechanics a small subset of players say they want but don't actually bother with.

* Oboards should be one of the Laws: don't have them, but if you must, don't trust them.

[Amaron]

Otherwise you end up spending cycles on game mechanics a small subset of players say they want but don't actually bother with.

To be fair a lot of the time it's dev's crippling the new feature on day 1.   See Rated Battlegrounds in WoW.

[eldaec]

Make your starship your house.  Let you customize it and add lots more space content.  That would be 'Star Warsy' and would differentiate themselves in a fantasy-choked MMO field.

-Smuggling missions for smugglers
-Diplomacy/Intimidation missions for Jedi/Sith
-Ambush/assassination/spying missions for Agents

etc.

Pretty sure all of those are already in. Except smuggling ofc.

I never understand why star wars games always have a smuggler class. Han solo was other things as well.

If you want to smuggle, play eve.

[cmlancas]

Han solo was other things as well.

Would they really implement a douche class? 

Watch Star Wars again and think about how douchey he is.  His only redeeming moment is when he's like, "naw, just playin' guys, I'm not like that."

[Ingmar]

The smuggler does a fair amount of smuggling in its class storyline. That said it isn't like, a stealth mission type thing which is what I assume people are asking for whenever they bring up the smuggling.

[DraconianOne]

He (she?) can also be a real douche. So there's that.

And let's not forget the shag-em-and-leave-em approach he has to diplomacy.