Clang - Neal Stephenson's swordfighting game project (Subutai)

[Tale]

Watch the best video explanation ever, sure to make it do well on Kickstarter.

Hi, Neal Stephenson here. My career as an author of science and historical fiction has turned me into a swordsmanship geek. As such, I'm dissatisfied with how swordfighting is portrayed in existing video games. These could be so much more fun than they are. Time for a revolution.

In the last couple of years, affordable new gear has come on the market that makes it possible to move, and control a swordfighter's actions, in a much more intuitive way than pulling a plastic trigger or pounding a key on a keyboard. So it's time to step back, dump the tired conventions that have grown up around trigger-based sword games, and build something that will enable players to inhabit the mind, body, and world of a real swordfighter.

[Kageru]

... that is one epic video.

[Kageru]

... was that Gabe Newell smithing the crowbar?

Certainly the dialog makes sense.

"Hey, is that about ready?"
"These things.... they take time".

[Tale]

Good spot. Also the fact it's a crowbar (Half-Life).

[Ghambit]

The Sixense controller is not designed to do what I think they want it to do but whatever, here's half a million bux anyways I guess.   

[rk47]

Not feasible for PC I think.

[Kageru]

why?

They're just targeting the PC because it's a relatively open and flexible platform, makes perfect sense as a development target. Since they already said the Wii-mote is insufficient, I'd imagine the Kinect is worse and the PS3 is proprietary and scheduled for obsolescence.

Or if you mean for games in general, well, I could somewhat see that. The inability to get resistance makes all the motion sensitive controllers very limited for sword fighting simulation. But I guess they'll do what they can with what they have.

[rk47]

I can't imagine standing up just to get a room to swing. It doesn't really belong to PC gaming. You need some space to swing whatever that thing is. And what about footwork?
It sounds impressive, but I'm not backing it.

[Bann]

I'm very skeptical of this project. I fence as a hobby. As Kageru said, without resistance, I do not see how this thing changes the game at all. Maybe it can more truly track the motion of a weapon that has been accurately modeled in an engine, but that still just sounds to me like a better version of the Wii controller in a heavier more gnarly looking hunk of plastic. My small amount of experience with fencing places a ton of emphasis on distance and the clanging of blades. Nearly every touch I land comes after a parry or a beat, and the inability to feel my blade bounce off my opponents makes me skeptical.

I hope I'm wrong though. I'd love to live in a world where I could see where I rank against all the other sword-fighters in the Meta-Verse.

[Bunk]

Yea, that's pretty much the first (of many) issues that occurred to me. So I do a big overhand swing with my controller, ending up with it pointing at the ground in front of me, yet my opponent parried it over his head. Now what?

I just don't see how they can actually make this any more skill dependent than wii boxing. Silly idea.

[UnSub]

I played Die by the Sword by running in a circle around my target, swinging wildly.

I'm not sure why this - despite the animations being shown - would end up being any different.

[Goumindong]

Nearly every touch I land comes after a parry or a beat, and the inability to feel my blade bounce off my opponents makes me skeptical.

And, at least from my limited experience doing fencing the setup for those generally involves footwork and positioning which just isn't possible in a motion controller. It isn't going to get better when we start incorporating full armored combat styles which involve contact with the entire body.

Nor is it going to get passed the problem that "real" fights tend to be ugly things despite knowledge of fighting styles.

It would work much better as a timing based button presser [like all the fighting games we already have].

[HaemishM]

At least we got a cool video out of it.

[Abelian75]

Yeah, I am kinda confused as hell by how this is supposed to work.  The closest I can come to possibly making it sort of work is that you just perform each strike assuming it is blocked (stopping the motion yourself), and the game just follows the motion through if it isn't blocked.  That's a sketchy as hell answer of course, overlooking problems too numerous to list.  I dunno, grasping at straws here.  But, funny as hell video.

[Kageru]

I can't imagine standing up just to get a room to swing.

I too am concerned about the ability of PC gamers to stand up. This could be a bridge too far.

Seriously though, the PC is just the development platform and it is good at that.

In terms of feedback it sounds, from the FAQ and the other video, that they intend to have some sort of feedback mechanism in the sword. So you'll get a haptic "hit" signal but also an "over-extended" signal and some sort of in-game representation of that. Thus you'll learn to choke off your attack in order to optimize your efficiency in game. It's not going to be as good as a real impact and rebound but it's probably interesting and better than what we have. Possibly even like some of the practice routines (or Hiro practicing in snow crash) in martial arts if it works well.

There's some videos on the controller they intend to use and it is really accurate and able to track multiple objects in space (the Razer hydra is two handed and available off the shelf) though a lot of the body movement could probably be inferred from the sword movement in space.

[Tale]

If they make something better than any effort so far, and provide the swordfighting engine to others as promised, that can't be bad.

[lamaros]

Doesn't make it good though. I expect it to be a waste of money. The comparison with gun warfare is especially pointless.

[tmp]

In terms of feedback it sounds, from the FAQ and the other video, that they intend to have some sort of feedback mechanism in the sword. So you'll get a haptic "hit" signal but also an "over-extended" signal and some sort of in-game representation of that.

Come to think of it, games have been using controller rumble functionality to provide that sort of feedback for quite a few years now. Not specifically for swords, but, well.

[Kageru]

Doesn't make it good though. I expect it to be a waste of money. The comparison with gun warfare is especially pointless.

Seemed fine to me. Gunplay suits a trigger controller, swordplay needs something more motion. The pieces are starting to come together to make it possible but it's all very shallow "wave controller to trigger swing" stuff which could be better even with the current tools.

Honestly who didn't look at a wii-mote and dream of sword fighting?

[Wasted]

Honestly who didn't look at a wii-mote and dream of sword fighting?

Its the whole reason I bought that stupid thing at launch

[UnSub]

Honestly who didn't look at a wii-mote and dream of sword fighting?

I'm happy to press a button and see my character do a triple flip than have to try and physically emulate that move myself.

I also don't think a game like Bushido Blade would have been improved if I had to learn all the fighting styles either.

I think that's the biggest problem with that video - it's a bunch of sword-fighting enthusiasts thinking it would be awesome to make video gamers do what they do. I'm happy to press a button and play a game rather than having to pretend I'm at a solo ren faire in front of a screen.

[Lantyssa]

It's more the trying to imitate the fighting style and seeing how bad I really am that would discourage me.  There's a reason one of the Move/Kinect/Wii things was used as an April Fool's joke.

[HaemishM]

Honestly who didn't look at a wii-mote and dream of sword fighting?

Its the whole reason I bought that stupid thing at launch

This. I still think Red Steel was a fascinating game despite its bugs, flaws and issues. Too bad no one could figure out how to consistently make good games with the fucking system.

[Tale]

It's more the trying to imitate the fighting style and seeing how bad I really am that would discourage me.  There's a reason one of the Move/Kinect/Wii things was used as an April Fool's joke.

That's still the holy grail though. From what I saw, the Dance Dance Revolution craze in arcades increased the number of hot young things who could really bust a move. They left traditional gamer types in the dust. I work with a martial arts geek who can backflip at will...

[Kageru]

Back-flipping is pretty extreme.

But being able to see a strong correlation between action in world and action in game would make for a much more interesting game. Watching someone try the light saber duels in the latest wii star wars game and it really was either "flail randomly" or "do massively exaggerated move to trigger canned sequence" which was lame both ways (though they had just got the game).

[Lantyssa]

I want more of the HR lady.

[Goumindong]

Back-flipping is pretty extreme.

But being able to see a strong correlation between action in world and action in game would make for a much more interesting game. Watching someone try the light saber duels in the latest wii star wars game and it really was either "flail randomly" or "do massively exaggerated move to trigger canned sequence" which was lame both ways (though they had just got the game).

But where was the best lightsaber combat in a star wars game?

A: Jedi Knight (II)

What was the control scheme?

Forward/Back/left/right + attack

3 different styles.

I don't see why you need a motion controller to make an interesting, robust, and authentic fighting game. In fact, I don't see why its going to enhance things as compared to just building a standard fighting that is robust and authentic

[UnSub]

"Flail randomly" will be how most people use Clang, should it ever make it out of prototype stage.

[lamaros]

"Flail randomly" will be how most people use Clang, should it ever make it out of prototype stage.

And those that 'master' it will do weird gestures that the game never intended to be the way you play it, and bear no resemblance to actual sword fighting.

[Ironwood]

I want more of the HR lady.

The one with the very floppy hair ?

[Lantyssa]

I think?  It was black.  Along with all the leather she was wearing.

[UnSub]

"Flail randomly" will be how most people use Clang, should it ever make it out of prototype stage.

And those that 'master' it will do weird gestures that the game never intended to be the way you play it, and bear no resemblance to actual sword fighting.

Indeed. Because you don't have the mass of a weapon to worry about, or have to worry about the physics of swinging it (and if you do, then Clang is going to fail because only overly-rich idiots are going to spend $100+ on a unique controller they can only use for one or two games).

I don't doubt that Clang will make its Kickstarter money, but as a system it requires a large number of systems to work. It might be something that is transferred to the Kinect or Move, but I can't see it happening for the PC.

[Kageru]

They're targetting a peripheral that only exists on the PC (Razer Hydra) and is currently available off the shelf. I don't think it would be massively complicated to dock it in something with weight or re-purpose the sensors.

Since they seem to think the wii-mote is too limited I can't imagine them doing anything but laughing at kinect. That said the goal is to have sword fighting mechanics that could be butchered down to whatever platform you have. They make it quite clear they're writing a mechanics set / library as their main focus.

[Xuri]

1) Hook player up with electrodes along their entire arm
2) Send jolts of electricity when player's attack is blocked/impacts (vary the amount based on what happens)
3) ? ? ?
4) Seriously damaged nerves in arm over time from too much virtual sword-fighting

I'll be starting a new kickstarter project to make this happen, any day now.

[UnSub]

1) Hook player up with electrodes along their entire arm
2) Send jolts of electricity when player's attack is blocked/impacts (vary the amount based on what happens)
3) ? ? ?
4) Seriously damaged nerves in arm over time from too much virtual sword-fighting

I'll be starting a new kickstarter project to make this happen, any day now.

If you let me shock people through the internet for being stupid, I will pledge any amount you want.