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Author Topic: June 8th beta weekend  (Read 69617 times)
Sky
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Reply #175 on: June 14, 2012, 08:18:08 AM

Heh you hate WOW design but you played TOR.   Ohhhhh, I see.
As I said, where it aped the design is where I disliked it the most. I don't mind the straight diku framework for the underpinnings, hotbar tab target combat is ok imo. It's more the 'endgame' stuff and using the AH instead of an EQ2 broker, etc. My gripes about TOR are on record here. I still think it's a good game despite that, because there's a ton of content for casual players interested in story. And I was even a fan of the group stuff, they just implemented it in a way that discourages casual grouping. Unfortunately I won't be around for the LFD tools due to, well, you know.

On topic, I think the support stuff and class interplay has some legs to it. Having mostly done the mesmer (assuming it works properly at release!), he has some conditionals on both sides that might play into a necro duo nicely. I imagine a lot of synergy will come out as people get more time with the game and grouping.
Spiff
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Reply #176 on: June 14, 2012, 08:48:56 AM

After 2 BWE's in which I played quite a bit, I still feel like I'm just scratching the surface with combos and that's really where the class play/support can come into it's own I think.

Healing rain for instance: decent skill on it's own, but have an engineer blow a few bombs/mines in there and you've got a bunch of 100%-chance healing combos going off on a lot of people.

Combo fields tend to be very short in duration though (10 seconds seems to be about the max, with a lot around 2-4 seconds) and often quite small, so it takes a lot of coordination to get some real mileage out of it. It's practically impossible without voice-chat imo.
Coordination is the magic word for WvW as well; looks like it can be great fun with all the tactical objectives, but most of what I've seen so far is PuG zerging and camping.

All of that gives the game depth I suppose, but isn't exactly casual.
The best bits of the gameplay seem to take a real effort to get at, I'm not sure I want to invest in an MMO that much any more.
Segoris
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Reply #177 on: June 14, 2012, 10:02:58 AM

To get the most out of combos will take some investment, I think to a point that it will be what separates the player base competetively if they're trying to use combos as much as possible. Just memorizing the combo list will be a task, but knowing a couple combos that your class can perform on your own, or keeping in mind what class you're playing near and what combos they may start or finish does go a long way without much investment. It wasn't an issue keeping up area retaliation by myself on a guardian, or using smoke fields from thieves (since thieves using Smoke Screen was more common this time around for some reason I'm not sure of).

Combos are also why I was surprised to not see very many staff using support specced elems since their staffs can set up fire/ice/water/lightning combos AND set them off on their own. Improved direct healing, swiftness, can chill enemies, etc all without help of others.
Phred
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Reply #178 on: June 14, 2012, 11:49:05 AM

Heh you hate WOW design but you played TOR.   Ohhhhh, I see.
Sky's SW fanboism knows no bounds :)

Oh ya Sky, it's possible that the dmgless clones are bugged. The tooltip, according to the skill builder site http://gw2.luna-atra.fr/skills_tool/?lang=en says nothing about the clone's ether bolt being 0 damage. The class would be a whole lot more interesting it those clones cast full damage ether bolts.

The tooltip says "Shoot out a third bolt, summon a clone that casts ether bolt" That doesn't read like the clone is supposed to be a gimp to me.

« Last Edit: June 14, 2012, 11:53:04 AM by Phred »
01101010
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Reply #179 on: June 14, 2012, 11:54:15 AM

To get the most out of combos will take some investment, I think to a point that it will be what separates the player base competetively if they're trying to use combos as much as possible. Just memorizing the combo list will be a task, but knowing a couple combos that your class can perform on your own, or keeping in mind what class you're playing near and what combos they may start or finish does go a long way without much investment. It wasn't an issue keeping up area retaliation by myself on a guardian, or using smoke fields from thieves (since thieves using Smoke Screen was more common this time around for some reason I'm not sure of).

Combos are also why I was surprised to not see very many staff using support specced elems since their staffs can set up fire/ice/water/lightning combos AND set them off on their own. Improved direct healing, swiftness, can chill enemies, etc all without help of others.

Skillchains in FFXI I absolutely loved. Not so much for the graphics or the big dmg numbers, but because it sync'd the team together as a unit. I like hearing about this type of stuff.  awesome, for real

Does any one know where the love of God goes...When the waves turn the minutes to hours? -G. Lightfoot
Tyrnan
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Reply #180 on: June 14, 2012, 12:09:19 PM

Oh ya Sky, it's possible that the dmgless clones are bugged. The tooltip, according to the skill builder site http://gw2.luna-atra.fr/skills_tool/?lang=en says nothing about the clone's ether bolt being 0 damage. The class would be a whole lot more interesting it those clones cast full damage ether bolts.

The tooltip says "Shoot out a third bolt, summon a clone that casts ether bolt" That doesn't read like the clone is supposed to be a gimp to me.
In the first beta weekend clones did minimal damage. It wasn't much, I'm talking single-digits at lower levels, but it was *something*. I read that they boosted the clones hitpoints this time around (although I didn't notice them having much more survivability tbh) so I guess they took away their damage to compensate? They also majorly nerfed Mind Wrack (the damaging Shatter) damage. I tried playing my Mesmer for a bit last weekend (it was my most played character in BWE1) but it felt really anemic compared to the previous version. I know that Mesmer is the most recent profession and in need of the most adjustment, I just really hope they can find a way to make it work.

In regards to Ether Bolt specifically, that skill used to apply confusion (both the Mesmer and clone version) but it was removed before BWE1 as it was deemed too easy to build confusion stacks. I don't think they gave it anything in return to compensate so it feels a bit lackluster now.
Kageru
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Reply #181 on: June 14, 2012, 04:38:34 PM

Quote
I'm just not feeling the love for GW2.

I enjoy it well enough, but I suspect I will play it to max level and then probably drop out. It doesn't seem to have an "end game" other than WvWvW and I'm not feeling like that's going to hold me.

I think you are missing the possibilities somewhat. With a game that finally implements level / reward scaling into the design "end game" becomes a much more flexible concept. They could easily (though I don't say they will) add exploration, story or collection content to existing or new zones and expand the PvE gameplay without "end game" being an issue at all.

That said what I expect is there'll be achievements and unlocks a PvE player can work toward, and they'll be fairly grindy, because that's what they did in GW1 from my understanding. I don't think they have some magic answer to what a casual players end-game is, or how you can play a game for hundreds of hours and still find fresh new things to do, but this is the best framework for that to be possible, especially since there won't be a raiding end-game sucking all the attention.

Crafting looks like quite a project in itself... I only messed with it a little but it looks like mastering a craft is not trivial. It also supposedly generates enough XP that it would get you to level 60 by itself if you had unlimited materials.

Is a man not entitled to the hurf of his durf?
- Simond
kildorn
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Reply #182 on: June 14, 2012, 06:58:08 PM

Oh ya Sky, it's possible that the dmgless clones are bugged. The tooltip, according to the skill builder site http://gw2.luna-atra.fr/skills_tool/?lang=en says nothing about the clone's ether bolt being 0 damage. The class would be a whole lot more interesting it those clones cast full damage ether bolts.

The tooltip says "Shoot out a third bolt, summon a clone that casts ether bolt" That doesn't read like the clone is supposed to be a gimp to me.
In the first beta weekend clones did minimal damage. It wasn't much, I'm talking single-digits at lower levels, but it was *something*. I read that they boosted the clones hitpoints this time around (although I didn't notice them having much more survivability tbh) so I guess they took away their damage to compensate? They also majorly nerfed Mind Wrack (the damaging Shatter) damage. I tried playing my Mesmer for a bit last weekend (it was my most played character in BWE1) but it felt really anemic compared to the previous version. I know that Mesmer is the most recent profession and in need of the most adjustment, I just really hope they can find a way to make it work.

In regards to Ether Bolt specifically, that skill used to apply confusion (both the Mesmer and clone version) but it was removed before BWE1 as it was deemed too easy to build confusion stacks. I don't think they gave it anything in return to compensate so it feels a bit lackluster now.

They lowered Illusion damage and buffed Phantasm damage. Sadly, the equation they used for it wound up reducing low level illusion damage to absolutely nothing and thus making low level mesmers feel like they are missing something. Mind Wrack suffered from worse than usual pathing issues that I saw, and the new damage display pointed out how little it was per illusion destroyed. A 3 stack of illusions in the middle of a pack was still a decent nuke.. but nothing to write home about compared to an Elementalist dropping any of their low cooldown AEs on the same pack for less effort.

Illusions really just need to find a good role in the game, imo. I'd prefer them to be a smaller part of mesmer play, just because with them dying when your target dies I feel like concentrating power in the mesmer itself gives you far more flexibility in general combat. That said, I'd love to mess around with a support mesmer build that concentrated on the illusion traits that turn them into passive group buffers on summon.
murdoc
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Reply #183 on: June 15, 2012, 07:23:19 AM


I think you are missing the possibilities somewhat.


This applies to so many things for me and my small group of friends playing GW2 right now. We had an alright weekend with BWE2, but pretty much all of us came away a *little* disappointed with  different aspects. Once we got together and talked about it afterwards, almost all of us said something along the lines of "I never thought of it that way". One friend loved Scenarios - I hated them, but after a lengthy discussion it really seemed I was going into them with the wrong mindset. We argued about WvW and how it's nothing but a zergfest, when there is little things a smaller group can do, but players for a large part haven't realized the possibilities yet. Little things like disrupting a supply train can make a big difference when you're knocking down walls of a large keep.

GW2 isn't quite the beautiful unique snowflake it wants to be, but there IS a ton of little things that does make playing it different. Going into it with a typical MMO mindset will get you to miss what they are doing. The whole game is 'end game'. You can do pretty much whatever you want, other than higher level PvE, whenever you want.

I was pretty frothy for SWtOR and I barely managed to make it through 3 months of it - so I'm trying to keep my enthusiasm in check, but I really like a lot of things they are doing.

Have you tried the internet? It's made out of millions of people missing the point of everything and then getting angry about it
Numtini
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Reply #184 on: June 15, 2012, 09:47:43 AM

Quote
I think you are missing the possibilities somewhat.

Well we'll find out. I'm definitely playing. It's just a vague feeling that there may be some things lacking, not the kind of reaction I had to SWTOR of "are they serious? this is a joke!"

I will say, I am skeptical of the combo thing. Every game these either seem to be written off as too complicated or they don't scale with increasing damage from equipment and they don't get used.

If you can read this, you're on a board populated by misogynist assholes.
kildorn
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Reply #185 on: June 15, 2012, 09:57:47 AM

There's no scaling to talk of in GW. Some of the fields are iffy (poison in particular: too easy to apply with actual skills to care about using fields to do it), but Burning Blind and Stealth are all things that are just awesome to apply with combos.

The main thing to remember with scaling is that there is no ilvl gap at the end game. You don't have level 80, level 81, level 82 gear and have scaling issues with shit that worked at 80 but not 82 gear. It's just level 80, and they intend the gameplay and unique looking alternate equipment to create the sticky value (all of this assuming they stick to the current design goals, and using GW1 as proof they have a history of using this design focus)

I think it's an awesome way to always know the balance levels, but I think it doesn't "stick" with people who really like the constant carrot of new shiny power increasing gear. Personally, I was a huge fan of the fact that I could be fully kitted out really quickly in GW1, and only had to go case after cooler looking armor with the same stats.

edit: honestly, most of this seems more a design limitation: they've chosen a very specific target market, and their version of an endgame/progression path will probably not appeal to everyone.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2012, 09:59:39 AM by kildorn »
Sky
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Reply #186 on: June 15, 2012, 11:15:42 AM

Trying to appeal to everyone hasn't worked so well for post-wow mmo.
Lantyssa
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Reply #187 on: June 15, 2012, 11:47:14 AM

It ended up not working so well for WoW, either.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Phred
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Reply #188 on: June 15, 2012, 12:17:53 PM

It ended up not working so well for WoW, either.

Oh? You think other MMO makers wouldn't sell their children for WoW's current subscriber base? Let's try to keep a little perspective here.

Tmon
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Reply #189 on: June 15, 2012, 04:57:12 PM

It ended up not working so well for WoW, either.

Oh? You think other MMO makers wouldn't sell their children for WoW's current subscriber base? Let's try to keep a little perspective here.



Of course they would, but no one has been able to duplicate WoW, and based on what I read about some of the changes to WoW I sometimes think that Blizzard doesn't really understand how they did it.  You can say a lot about GW2 but WoW in Tyria is not one of them.
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Reply #190 on: June 17, 2012, 05:14:21 AM

On the subject of leveling speed from couple pages ago, there's video discussing it. Not exactly in-depth but it does list the options and some info (like crafting) was rather interesting.
Draegan
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Reply #191 on: June 18, 2012, 10:49:19 AM

That video is like 23m long.  Damn.  I'll pass.
Phred
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Reply #192 on: June 18, 2012, 02:18:11 PM

That video is like 23m long.  Damn.  I'll pass.

It's basically pointing out  Anet's has failed to make it clear to players that their game works differently than others. A long, tedious point by point argument that would have worked better in text but what can you do.

Tannhauser
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Reply #193 on: June 18, 2012, 04:02:28 PM

That was a horrible video, I lasted 5 minutes but he was still saying what he was going to talk about instead of talking about it.  Also worst Canuck accent EVAR.

If GW2 is grindy, I won't be bothering.
Furiously
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WWW
Reply #194 on: June 18, 2012, 06:28:42 PM

It's probably as grindy as you want it to be.

Kageru
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Reply #195 on: June 18, 2012, 07:49:13 PM

It hasn't been grindy for me up to low teens. Indeed it's pretty much unique in that I rarely look at my level or care and just about everything you do in game generates xp.

I think he's basically talking to the people focused on power-grinding through the beta process. Not that I made it all the way through the video.

Treasure map drops that put an X in the world somewhere and start an event when you dig it up? A flag (data-mined only I believe)  that drops and gives points based on how far you plant it from all other flags? With the level limiting mechanic they can continue to make the world richer and not worry about it being obsoleted by out-leveling so all sorts of things become possible.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 08:36:11 PM by Kageru »

Is a man not entitled to the hurf of his durf?
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Cadaverine
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Reply #196 on: June 18, 2012, 08:32:43 PM

I think he's basically talking to the people focused on power-grinding through the beta process.

Pretty much.  He's mostly referring to the people bitching on various forums that A-net needs to boost xp from the Renown Hearts because that's all that they did, and now they're only level 11, and for whatever reason they don't feel they should have to do anything else to level a character.

Basically, he took 23 minutes to say, "This game might not be for you".

Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats.
kildorn
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Reply #197 on: June 18, 2012, 08:51:09 PM

That video is missing that a number of the leveling speed complaints have to do with ONE of the starter zones, which is undertuned for XP. Queensland will dump you out at level 13 or so, given that you do every bit of map completion and a number of the chain XP events. It's.. a fucking beta.
Kitsune
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Reply #198 on: June 18, 2012, 11:48:52 PM

His point is valid, though.  Complaining that questing through an area doesn't get you all of the levels to go to the next area is ignoring the pretty big pile of alternate experience avenues available.  Someone who doesn't want to just beat on fifty rabid rats to get their ding is perfectly welcome to mine up some rocks, or build something, or just wander around, and they'll get the experience that way.

The game really rewards people who take their nose off the grindstone and look around for a minute.  There have been several times in the beta weekends where I'd look around, see something, think, "Huh, that looks cool," and wander over to investigate.  In the process I've triggered several dynamic events, gotten some nice things, and discovered neat hidden features of the world.  It's very possibly the ultimate casual experience from all of my time in MMORPGs; the game strongly encourages wandering and dabbling.
Tannhauser
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Reply #199 on: June 19, 2012, 05:28:22 AM

Ok that sounds great then
Lantyssa
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Reply #200 on: June 19, 2012, 06:11:07 AM

The game really rewards people who take their nose off the grindstone and look around for a minute.  There have been several times in the beta weekends where I'd look around, see something, think, "Huh, that looks cool," and wander over to investigate.  In the process I've triggered several dynamic events, gotten some nice things, and discovered neat hidden features of the world.  It's very possibly the ultimate casual experience from all of my time in MMORPGs; the game strongly encourages wandering and dabbling.
That's why it's such a good game for me.  I'm easily distracted, but there is always something new to find.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Tmon
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Reply #201 on: June 19, 2012, 07:07:16 AM

That's why it's such a good game for me.  I'm easily distracted, but there is always something new to find.

Same here, I like being able to just dink around with what I find interesting at any given time.
kildorn
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Reply #202 on: June 19, 2012, 07:18:44 AM

The zone should still be fixed. As much as I like to dick around with things, I could get crafting up to the next tier and still be short 3 levels in queensland. It's was a broken zone so far in both BWEs, XP comparison wise.

That said, I recall from pre BWE2 that they hadn't done a bunch of fixes yet, and we were mostly testing to make sure the servers didn't croak anymore.
Sky
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Reply #203 on: June 19, 2012, 08:13:12 AM

That's why it's such a good game for me.  I'm easily distracted, but there is always something new to find.
This. I only played one day of the beta, but I didn't feel like I was necessarily playing an mmo, just running around doing stuff as I felt like it. Having my buddy over and rocking the pimp horde (my afro illusions) helped. I did have a few issues playing non-optimally (something I love), but the mesmers are apparently a bit broken, so I'll continue to play incorrectly!
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 08:14:59 AM by Sky »
Draegan
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Reply #204 on: June 19, 2012, 08:13:58 AM

That video is missing that a number of the leveling speed complaints have to do with ONE of the starter zones, which is undertuned for XP. Queensland will dump you out at level 13 or so, given that you do every bit of map completion and a number of the chain XP events. It's.. a fucking beta.

The only portion of queensland that is missing a lot of content is around level 6 and 7.  If you can get over that hump with events, then you should be on track to hit 14/15 by the end.  The issue is that your experience may vary if events aren't triggering as much.

Edit:  There is like one level 7 heart and one level 6 heart and there isn't much realestate with mobs of that level that could trigger those events (right smack dab in the middle of the map).  However there is a ton of space for levels 10-15 (whole right side and bottom portion of the map).
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 08:16:28 AM by Draegan »
Lantyssa
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Reply #205 on: June 19, 2012, 08:28:57 AM

The zone should still be fixed. As much as I like to dick around with things, I could get crafting up to the next tier and still be short 3 levels in queensland. It's was a broken zone so far in both BWEs, XP comparison wise.
Anyone who wants to play a boring human deserves the slog. Grin

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Sky
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I love my TV an' hug my TV an' call it 'George'.


Reply #206 on: June 19, 2012, 08:39:48 AM

Anyone who wants to play a boring human deserves the slog. Grin
Speak for yourself! You just can't handle 3rd Street style, baby.

Phred
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Reply #207 on: June 19, 2012, 01:38:27 PM


The only portion of queensland that is missing a lot of content is around level 6 and 7.  If you can get over that hump with events, then you should be on track to hit 14/15 by the end.  The issue is that your experience may vary if events aren't triggering as much.

Edit:  There is like one level 7 heart and one level 6 heart and there isn't much realestate with mobs of that level that could trigger those events (right smack dab in the middle of the map).  However there is a ton of space for levels 10-15 (whole right side and bottom portion of the map).

Ya that's what happened to my human character. around L7 I was looking around for where to go next and the next heart was like L10 or 11. If you just keep going on you end up fighting L13-15 mobs at about L11 or so. I guess I just had real bad luck on events starting.

Because of the way downleveling works  it was easy to just hop over to the Nord area and do a few levels there but I was really hoping to avoid that as I'm thinking 5 races/5 starting areas for release equals no repeats. As to any accussations of not exploring I have the completion awards for all 3 starter zones on various of my chars.

Spiff
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Reply #208 on: June 19, 2012, 11:40:39 PM

I got the impression a lot of people were missing events as well 'cause they didn't quite catch on to the fact they're tiered.
So for instance I help this supercute Asura chase down his moa birds (pygmee moa birds  Heart) with some other random, but as the Asura starts talking about how he wants to sell 'em in the next town, the other guy just runs off.

I stick around listening to the munchkin's jabber and lo and behold an event starts where I have to guard him and his birds on route to town.

Stuff like that is what makes the world feel more alive to me than practically any other MMO I've ever played (as well as overlevelling me constantly), but I guess most people are confused by the fact most NPC's don't just open up 'HUGE text box > click yes to continue' or go into a 3 minute cutscene to advance the story (and your xp).
Mosesandstick
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Reply #209 on: June 20, 2012, 12:15:05 AM

I agree, but I also think it would be useful if it was more obvious that the quest would continue.
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