Complaints, gripes, kvetches...

[Ratman_tf]

It’s missing some features that really should be there. Horde mode or an ‘endless dungeon/tower with ramping difficulty’ would have been great fits for the genre.

I'd stab a rhinocerous for an endless dungeon mode.

Wasn't there a game recently that had an endless dungeon? 

[Numtini]

It’s missing some features that really should be there. Horde mode or an ‘endless dungeon/tower with ramping difficulty’ would have been great fits for the genre.

I'd stab a rhinocerous for an endless dungeon mode.

Wasn't there a game recently that had an endless dungeon? 

I'm not sure what Bliz's thing is that they love to see players repeat content endlessly rather than do random. See also running heroics in WoW vs. randomized "missions" a la COX/AO.

[Fabricated]

The maps don't FEEL random.

This is one of the tough parts about a fully 3d well realized dungeon.  I've done some Torchlight  mapping and it is a LOAD of work, and there is no real way to hide the fact that some chunks are repeating. 

The irony is that I've been playing the hell out of the TL2 beta and while some of the one-off dungeons (the pirate cove) are relatively set in stone, the main areas and most of the other one-off dungeons are VERY random. D3 I only really notice sorta randomness in the samey dungeons like the barracks/keep areas in Act 3 and some of the tombs in act 2. Otherwise the overworld areas are as far as I can tell barely, barely randomized.

[Quinton]

I believe the only randomization in the overworld is which side-dungeons spawn off of a given overworld map, or where certain required dungeons spawn.

I really would love to see more nethack-quality (or later rougelike) random dungeons in a modern ARPG.

Also, hardcore mode would really benefit from a nethack-style tombstone summing up all of the character's accomplishments that people could view from your profile -- if data storage is a concern, perhaps the servers could only keep your last 10, plus up to 5 "favorite" tombstones or something like that.

[Lakov_Sanite]

The more and more I level my barbarian(in hell now) the more items disappoint me.  Very few stats actually matter, actually that's not right only TWO stats matter, strength and vitality. Maybe int and dex to boost dodge/resists but all the superfluous stats like gold find or life leech, they all seem to pale in comparison to the point of uselessness.

[Fabricated]

I think life leech is pretty much required for inferno isn't it?

[Mrbloodworth]

This is one of the tough parts about a fully 3d well realized dungeon.  I've done some Torchlight  mapping and it is a LOAD of work, and there is no real way to hide the fact that some chunks are repeating.  

POE does rather well.

It’s missing some features that really should be there. Horde mode or an ‘endless dungeon/tower with ramping difficulty’ would have been great fits for the genre.

See POE, and its variable rule set ability, its brilliant.


As to the loot, I'm of the notion, this is intended so you feed the RMAH. My entire time of playing this it feels like your highest level toon gets 1 out of 20 items for his level, the rest is great gear for lower level alts. Perfect formula to pump items through the RMAH and get that fee. D3 Feels like a purely profit motivated design, from taking advantage of its name, to its low production costs, to the lowering of its difficulty/complexity to a post-wow Diablo, to the systems in place in game. Its does not seem like a project of love for the series. Hell, we beat most D3 bosses in D1, and there is no ring drop sound.

[Paelos]

Did you write PoE or something? Who cares?

See, the good thing about loot being an issue early in a game like this is that it's easily fixable. This isn't game-breaking bug, or an engine issue, or a major gameplay fault. This is itemization. That's probably one of the easiest things to solve.

[Mrbloodworth]

Did you write PoE or something? Who cares?

It's a contemporary title, made by a smaller, less funded group. When talking about titles, people tend to bring up contemporary's as a comparison, especially when one is doing things better than another. In this context, the amount of effort being put into one as opposed to the other. One feels more like a creation of love for a genre, the other feels like a profit driven rehash with minimal effort placed in its creation.

D3 is barely randomized, thought there are a few "event" elements that change each time at creation ( that are cool ), but it does not seem to feature the randomization of past versions of the title.

[Paelos]

I don't feel that at all. I think you're reaching.

[Mrbloodworth]

I don't feel that at all. I think you're reaching.

Really?

Rather typical story.
Rehashed bosses.
Heavy reuse of small set of assets, like, extremely small.
Less complicated assets.
Barely randomized environments. Except for a handful of key "event" set pieces.
Loot system seemingly designed to feed the RMAH. ( High level toons getting loot for lower level ones )
Lack of things beloved from the original ( Ring sounds ETC.. )
Simplified skill system, with little downsides to any choice.
Simplified loot system, just stack damage.
Extremely short.

[Paelos]

Story - don't care. Torchlight had none.
Bosses - don't care. They are all loot pinatas anyway.
Assets - developer complaint. Don't care.
Randomization - I think it's a nice balance b/w TQ and Diablo 2
Loot system - fixable. In fact, easily so.
Sounds - again, fixable. Easily.
Skills - I like it better.
Short - I like it better with all the extra modes.

There. So to answer, yes really. You are reaching. I had no expectation of the loot system or the AH being perfect in the first month. That's always how economies develop.

[Quinton]

For all that, I'm still having fun and have sunk 40+ hours into the game so far.  I'm still running into new little events and things on the 10th time through some zones, I'm running into new types of monster abilities, etc, etc.  There's a lot here.

I think the "As to the loot, I'm of the notion, this is intended so you feed the RMAH." thing is maybe a liiiitle tinfoil hat over the top.  I really don't think the entire game is some cynical low-effort attempt to cash in via the RMAH.  I'm not sure I'd agree on "low production costs" either -- they put a lot of people on this thing for a long time, there's a huge investment in art, audio, other assets, etc.  I would totally accept an argument that you think they spent their money on the wrong things, but I think the whole it's cheaply done and a cynical attempt to turn the once-proud diablo franchise into a money making machine via RMAH thing is kinda absurd.

There's a lot of interesting stuff about POE and I'm really curious to see where it goes, but, while less random (which I think is a bummer), I really enjoy the look of the D3 zones a lot more.  And I enjoy the combat in D3 a lot more.  I'm hoping the POE people keep pushing it though.

I need to check out TL2 (I only poked at it for 30 minutes during the beta last weekend), but I strongly dislike the super-cartoony wow-like artstyle, so that's a bit of a turnoff.

The good news is there's a *lot* of ARPG stuff in the works this year, so hopefully we'll see some fun variety.  I'd love to see something with a bit more visual polish than POE but a lot more uneven and nethacky in the random dungeons, item powers, etc than D3.

Don't get me wrong, I've got a number of gripes with D3 and hope they make it better -- I strongly suspect they didn't actually have a good model for how the AH (RM or otherwise) would interact with the number of players and the loot system and would not be surprised if they adjust things to compensate a bit -- but I think it's still a pretty damn fun game.

[kildorn]

The only random dungeon difference I see between that video and D3 is that PoE uses smaller connector tiles to make hallways and tunnels different.  D3 uses almost entirely large block tiles to form it's dungeons.

I'm.. okay with both approaches? And yes, the "there was no effort put into Diablo 3" meme is just sheer fucking lunacy of the highest order. PoE, TL2, and D3 all have a shitload of work and effort going into them, with varied levels of monetary backing for said effort.

My random complaint would be that there are some gear tiering Walls around the starts of new acts where you're expected to double your damage/health really quickly. So if drops hate you, you're going to suffer and get one shot constantly. That gearing curve could be a lot smoother.

[Ironwood]

If it wasn't for the fun with the wife (In the game chaps, keep it clean) I'd feel mightily ripped off.

Especially given Sunday lack of fun.

[Quinton]

My random complaint would be that there are some gear tiering Walls around the starts of new acts where you're expected to double your damage/health really quickly. So if drops hate you, you're going to suffer and get one shot constantly. That gearing curve could be a lot smoother.

I've found that the AH can easily and cheaply compensate for this, but I'm kinda annoyed by that -- maybe somewhat by the fact that I have to completely leave the game, which means losing progress if you haven't just hit a checkpoint, etc, and a little because I feel like there should be some middle ground between buying a pile of gear that massively kicks up your stats in seconds and farming until you get decent gear.  I have found that in 4 player parties with friends, trading gear around compensates quite a bit for this -- between four people getting drops and playing different classes, we seemed to be able to keep everyone outfitted pretty well.

[Nebu]

Story - don't care. Torchlight had none.
Bosses - don't care. They are all loot pinatas anyway.
Assets - developer complaint. Don't care.
Randomization - I think it's a nice balance b/w TQ and Diablo 2
Loot system - fixable. In fact, easily so.
Sounds - again, fixable. Easily.
Skills - I like it better.
Short - I like it better with all the extra modes.

I pretty much agree with this.  My only complaint is that this feels more like a $39 game than a $59 one.  I log on and play for 30 mins and then play something else (like WoT or Championship Manager).  It's so shallow that it's like playing solitaire with demons.  Still, I am enjoying it more than 1 or 2.  A LOT more.

[Paelos]

I will say that I don't think people should be able to post items with no buyout. It's ruining my AH searches. Bastards!

[Quinton]

Just search with a max buyout -- you won't see no-buyout items.  Generally I punch in 3k or 5k or something into max buyout, select a category, and select an interesting attribute or two and hit search.  If there are a crazy number of hits I bump the rarity up, increase the minimum value of the attribute(s), etc to narrow in on the best stuff.  I've found that really good stuff with a reasonably low buyout moves *really* fast.  Knowing what you want and being ready to push buyout now when you find it can help.

[Shatter]

Just search with a max buyout -- you won't see no-buyout items.  Generally I punch in 3k or 5k or something into max buyout, select a category, and select an interesting attribute or two and hit search.  If there are a crazy number of hits I bump the rarity up, increase the minimum value of the attribute(s), etc to narrow in on the best stuff.  I've found that really good stuff with a reasonably low buyout moves *really* fast.  Knowing what you want and being ready to push buyout now when you find it can help.

Fast is an understatement.  Ive lost count how many items I found that were really nice for cheap and hit the buyout and says its gone.   

[Thrawn]

Fast is an understatement.  Ive lost count how many items I found that were really nice for cheap and hit the buyout and says its gone.   

I'm still upset over an insanely underpriced rare ring (10% magic find, and str, and vit and damage for 10k) that I JUST missed last night.  I clicked buy, it hung and gave me a generic error message.  Then when I tired again it said it was sold.

[waffel]

As to the loot, I'm of the notion, this is intended so you feed the RMAH. My entire time of playing this it feels like your highest level toon gets 1 out of 20 items for his level, the rest is great gear for lower level alts. Perfect formula to pump items through the RMAH and get that fee. D3 Feels like a purely profit motivated design, from taking advantage of its name, to its low production costs, to the lowering of its difficulty/complexity to a post-wow Diablo, to the systems in place in game. Its does not seem like a project of love for the series. Hell, we beat most D3 bosses in D1, and there is no ring drop sound.

Agreed. post-wow Diablo feels about right, I can only imagine what the old Blizzard North devs feel about the current state of 'their' game.:
http://www.diablowiki.net/Diablo_III:_Blizzard_North_version

[Rokal]

Play Path of Exile

I'll check it out when it launches. Similar to TL2, it's not really a viable alternative to D3 until it's out.

Story - don't care. Torchlight had none.
Bosses - don't care. They are all loot pinatas anyway.
Loot system - fixable. In fact, easily so.
Sounds - again, fixable. Easily.
Short - I like it better with all the extra modes.

There. So to answer, yes really. You are reaching. I had no expectation of the loot system or the AH being perfect in the first month. That's always how economies develop.

I think a flagship game that has been in development for 11 years and wouldn't have budget constraints has slightly higher expectations that a game made by a small studio that launched at $20. The story and bosses are par for the course for the genre, but shouldn't they be they be better? None of the story or boss fights surpass what Blizzard was able to create in 2000.

The loot and sound are fixable. Hell, even ME3's story may be fixable with upcoming DLC. The question is whether they'll fix loot/sound quick enough for it to matter (while most of us are still playing) and whether their fix will actually be any good. After seeing the way damage trumps all other stats, and official Blizzard post that refuse to see a problem with loot, I'm not convinced the Diablo 3 team is capable of completely fixing the loot problems. They made lots of bad decisions with gear in D3, not simply oversights.

Here's a pretty amazing exchange on twitter with Jay Wilson (lead designer of D3)

Player: 1027.2 DPS 1hand MAGIC weapon on the AH. over 300 more DPS than the best, perfect Legendary 1h. Intended?
Jay: Legendaries are not automatically better than other items. Most are designed to be very good at a specific job.
Player: Apparently DPS not being one of those jobs.
Jay: However, I am getting lots of reports of weak legendaries. We will look into this.

Yes, I'm sure you're getting reports of weak legendaries because that's how you designed the game  Damage matters too much, other stats matter too little. Not every interesting.

Lastly, I wouldn't call the extra difficulties extra modes. There aren't even new boss attacks in the higher difficulties. More damage, more health, more trait combos on rares/champions. Nothing we didn't see in Diablo 2, nothing that is actually innovative. I'd have much rather gotten a different game mode (like horde/endless tower) than more difficulties.

[Merusk]

Can we stop with the 11 years Meme?  They discarded everything post-BN closing and we'll never know why.  Consider development having started 6 years ago.  Not that it makes a large difference but I'm that kind of semantics bastard.

[Rokal]

Considering Act 4, the only new Act setting, is lifted from the canceled BN D3, it's safe to say that some ideas BN worked on may have made it into the Diablo 3 we're playing.

[kildorn]

The legendaries are weak because a designer is going to try and make something that isn't just "set all best stats sliders to AWESOME", but the RNG has no such issue with creating something crazy. Same reason the Bosses are easier than a lot of Champs: game designers make something balanced. The RNG will happily just fuck you.

[Maledict]

The complaint about loot being deliberately weak for the RMAH is such silly nonsense.

Go back and play Diablo 2. Go kill Nightmare Mephisto. Marvel at the level 15 required green set sabatons you get.

Diablo has ALWAYS dropped a lot of lower level loot, it's part of the slot machine design that's been built in since day 1 of the first game. The problem with the game isn't that they have changed it to fit the auction House, it's that we were expecting an updated version of LoD and we got an updated version of vanilla Diablo 2. ALL the complaints about loot are exactly the same as we had in vanilla, including:

- uniques being useless
- sets being worthless and impossible to collect
- blues being far better than any other item

Am I happy with it? Absolutely not, and I hope they start adding in extra gear and update the legendaries ASAP. But let's not ascribe malice to something that is perfectly explainable and something they've already done before. I'm willing to bet a large amou t of money there's a whiteboard in blizzard for the expansion that has 'rune words, more sets, better legendaries' at the top of he list.

[Paelos]

So is this the time where I take up for Blizzard and Rokal shits on the game?

THE CIRCLE IS COMPLETE!

[Ragnoros]

The complaint about loot being deliberately weak for the RMAH is such silly nonsense.

Go back and play Diablo 2. Go kill Nightmare Mephisto. Marvel at the level 15 required green set sabatons you get.

Diablo has ALWAYS dropped a lot of lower level loot, it's part of the slot machine design that's been built in since day 1 of the first game. The problem with the game isn't that they have changed it to fit the auction House, it's that we were expecting an updated version of LoD and we got an updated version of vanilla Diablo 2. ALL the complaints about loot are exactly the same as we had in vanilla, including:

- uniques being useless
- sets being worthless and impossible to collect
- blues being far better than any other item

Am I happy with it? Absolutely not, and I hope they start adding in extra gear and update the legendaries ASAP. But let's not ascribe malice to something that is perfectly explainable and something they've already done before. I'm willing to bet a large amou t of money there's a whiteboard in blizzard for the expansion that has 'rune words, more sets, better legendaries' at the top of he list.

Thank you, I was about to post the exact same thing. This times infinity! Give me my fun to collect sets and uniques!
Not this BS.

Code:

Demon's Cage
Torso
Set Chest Armor
322–359 Armor
+41-45 Fire Resistance
+5 Random Magic Properties

[Merusk]

Y'know... it's almost like they used the same Stat Budget tool code that WoW does, but forgot that they removed "add x-extra just for being purple/ legendary/whatever" from the formula.

[Rokal]

So is this the time where I take up for Blizzard and Rokal shits on the game?

THE CIRCLE IS COMPLETE!

I'll probably be asking for Jay Wilson to be fired before the week is out. 

I'm not angry, I'm just a bit disappointed by the game. It's merely good when it could have been great. None of Blizzard's recent output has been particularly impressive (D3, SC2, Cata). D3 and SC2 in particular don't seem to have any ambition besides being better versions of the originals.

[tazelbain]

D3 and SC2 in particular don't seem to have any ambition besides being better monetized versions of the originals.

This is what bugs me the most.

[Ingmar]

How is SC2 more monetized? Real question, I only ever played the single-player.

[Rokal]

They had planned on a big market for premium player-created maps, but I'm not sure that ever actually took off. I suppose you could also say that splitting the game into 3 parts was driven by money, though they continue to claim that it wasn't.

[Ingmar]

Ah, that's right, the mod shop or whatever it was going to be. I don't really buy the '3 games' thing in particular since it isn't like Wings of Liberty had fewer single-player missions than SC1. If the content is thin in the next 2 that would be different, though.