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Author Topic: Fists of Fury (Monk Thread)  (Read 15664 times)
Ingmar
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Reply #35 on: May 23, 2012, 05:10:22 PM

It was hotfixed today, yes.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Amaron
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Reply #36 on: May 23, 2012, 05:32:27 PM

Working my way through Inferno slowly.   You're basically forced to put defense in every slot while your DH/Wiz friends prance around blowing things up.

Tip 1:  Use resolve passive + sweeping wind with fire storm.   The extra range on the aoe makes it far easier to hit all the mobs and get them debuffed fast.
Tip 2:  Blind.  Always have blind.
bhodi
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Reply #37 on: May 24, 2012, 09:01:45 AM

Act III Hell. Trip report.

If you feel like you're stuck behind the power curve and are dying, buy more/better items. Seriously. I went from struggling yesterday, angry about the AH and quickening nerf, to 3 new items and a new build. If you find you need 3 abilities from the defense tree to live (aka, you need heal AND bubble AND blind), you're behind the curve and need new items.

I think foresight is the best builder now that quickening is gone. Even though it doesn't generate the most spirit, I think +18% overall damage is really the best option, especially when coupled with blazing wrath +15%, sweeping wind, and conviction. BIG NUMBERS! Also, it has range for elites.

Exploding Palm is more absurd in Hell than it ever was in nightmare since it scales with health. Essence Burn is the best skill.


Obviously this is going to change in inferno.
Llyse
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Reply #38 on: May 24, 2012, 09:04:46 PM

Cheers for the tips Bhodi!

Are you still stacking Dex/Vital? Is attack speed in weapon worth considering or is +Damage still god?

I'm 51 now and am looking to get some action in Act I Hell...
bhodi
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Reply #39 on: May 24, 2012, 10:22:14 PM

Vitality is still important, I was stacking dex+vit, yeah. Also at this point you'll want to decide on one single resist to buff and start watching/shopping for items with +all/+Xresist on them for one with everything. The key is a good balance though, you really can't just stack vitality. You really need to be doing about 3.5-4k dps with buffs in act 1 minimum. You should have around 1k dex and 500 vitality. In some cases, it's a race to get as much damage in during your 4 second immunity before running away, and in some cases you need that little extra life to survive an arcane beam pass, and of course it's all about what deals you can find on the AH.

Weapon speed is what it is, as long as you're 1.3/1.4 you're fine. At this point, damage runes are fairly paltry so I'd start looking at weapons without sockets instead of assuming sockets are mandatory. Right now I'm actually using a 1.3 weapon because it is doing really large amounts of damage, but this is the first one I've used (and I'm having spirit regen problems because of it)

In the middle of act 3 I had to replace that mystic ally with the shield again. I'm in act 4, now.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2012, 10:25:22 PM by bhodi »
Job601
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Reply #40 on: May 25, 2012, 06:34:41 AM

Everyone else probably already knew this, but it turns out armor in Diablo 3 mitigates all damage, not just physical damage.  This makes the dex -> armor passive much better than I thought it was.  I don't see any way to get by without that passive and one with everything (one resist -> all resists.)
Threash
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Reply #41 on: May 25, 2012, 09:55:53 AM

And in hardcore the free rez passive is a must have, although it comes pretty damn late.

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bhodi
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Reply #42 on: May 25, 2012, 10:52:43 AM

Everyone else probably already knew this, but it turns out armor in Diablo 3 mitigates all damage, not just physical damage.  This makes the dex -> armor passive much better than I thought it was.  I don't see any way to get by without that passive and one with everything (one resist -> all resists.)
It depends; that is a fantastic passive, but so is Resolve (25% less damage by creatures you hit). In general, due to multiplicative and diminishing returns, damage done by monsters > armor. It's One of the reasons conviction+intimidation is so good. And of course, transcendence is really good as well. It's really a toss-up between those 3 depending on your gear and such. The free rez (near death experience) is pretty much a requirement, as is One with Everything, so you really only one slot for 3 good passives.
Fabricated
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Reply #43 on: May 25, 2012, 11:09:47 AM

Do the -damage debuffs stack?

Like, does the damage reduction from Resolve and the Crippling Wave rune stack?

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Goumindong
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Reply #44 on: May 25, 2012, 12:21:52 PM

Everyone else probably already knew this, but it turns out armor in Diablo 3 mitigates all damage, not just physical damage.  This makes the dex -> armor passive much better than I thought it was.  I don't see any way to get by without that passive and one with everything (one resist -> all resists.)

Lategame you're probably not going to have all that much dex, even with good gear. Its probably going to be <2000 and you're going to have 7-10k armor long before that.

Considering that you have 5-7 really good passives in the same vein to stay alive [Fleet Footed, Resolve, Beacon of Ytar, Transcendence, One With Everything, Pacifism, Near Death Experience] its hard to say its necessary

One with everything is only really good if you are able to get gear that stacks in the right way. Because otherwise you're not going to get a lot of mitigation from it. And Fleet Footed only helps you run away. But that is still 5 really good passives for defense besides the dex->armor
Segoris
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Reply #45 on: May 25, 2012, 12:54:48 PM

Vitality is still important, I was stacking dex+vit, yeah. Also at this point you'll want to decide on one single resist to buff and start watching/shopping for items with +all/+Xresist on them for one with everything. The key is a good balance though, you really can't just stack vitality.

Just curious if you've done the testing to say one way or another, but would the +all/+Xresist really be better than say +all/+Int with the resist bonus that Int gives?

Ingmar
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Reply #46 on: May 25, 2012, 01:03:29 PM

+resist/+resist would be better yes. Int gives a much smaller amount of resist item-budget wise and doesn't do anything in particular with One With Everything. (Bodhi's point might have been clearer if he capitalized the passive name.)
« Last Edit: May 25, 2012, 01:44:30 PM by Ingmar »

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Amaron
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Reply #47 on: May 25, 2012, 01:18:45 PM

Do the -damage debuffs stack?

Like, does the damage reduction from Resolve and the Crippling Wave rune stack?

Yes.  I can't do inferno without both of them.  I'm even using the bonus range on sweeping wind to make sure everything absolutely gets hit with resolve.

For Inferno you absolutely have to have Resolve + Resists + Armor.   If you're looking to buy gear I would recommend getting cheap stuff with +armor and some resist.   This way you can dump the dex->armor passive.   You can buy +all resist gear and not use the resist passive but it's very expensive.
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Reply #48 on: May 25, 2012, 01:36:33 PM

Doesn't +all resist have a higher item budget leading to a lower overall resist level compared to a single resist?

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bhodi
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Reply #49 on: May 25, 2012, 01:43:21 PM

No. But it doesn't matter because I mean find items with both +All Reistances and also +YourChosenReist for double the fun. One or the other is "okay" I guess, but since you're going to be paying a premium for +All, since every single monk is going to want the item, you might as well get it with both, where you at least are only fighting the monks who also chose poison (or arcane, or cold, or whatever. But not Arcane, leave those items for me)
Segoris
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Reply #50 on: May 25, 2012, 01:57:13 PM

+resist/+resist would be better yes. Int gives a much smaller amount of resist item-budget wise and doesn't do anything in particular with One With Everything. (Bodhi's point might have been clearer if he capitalized the passive name.)

That is what I was forgetting about (and I didn't notice it being mentioned with the lack of capitalization), and it makes perfect sense to me now thanks.
bhodi
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Reply #51 on: May 26, 2012, 11:39:44 AM

Here's some words I pulled from SA on Inferno gearing:

I think the main monk gearing strategy for inferno is resistance. It's because of this weird combination of facts.

First fact: armor and resistances have diminishing returns. This isn't that bad, I'll get to that in a second.

Here's three different armor numbers and their mitigation values.

5549 armor - 64.49%
5896 armor - 66.28%
6463 armor - 68.30%

In the first jump in armor, we gain 1.79% mitigation for an additional 347 armor. The second jump is 567 armor and we gain 2.02% mitigation.

If you do a little division you see that

1.79/347 = 0.005 mitigation per armor
2.02/567 = 0.003 mitigation per armor

The more armor you add, the less mitigation per armor you get.

That sucks right? Not so fast. Mitigation has a unique benefit of being more valuable the more you have. Okay, let's say something hits you for 10,000 damage before mitigation.

10,000 vs
64.49% = (1-.6449)*10000 = 3551 damage
66.28% = 3372
68.30% = 3170

Now let's look at how effective each level of armor was compared to the one before it.

1st jump = 5.3% more mitigation
2nd jump = 6.4%

or, when rewriten as armor

347 armor = 0.015 additional mitigation % per armor
567 armor = 0.011

The diminishing returns help offset the fact that mitigation scales with itself.

So, now we're faced with fact #2: You naturally find armor on gear, through the Dex -> armor conversion, and with certain rune effects.

This means that your armor is naturally going to be high because it's already on most of your gear, and higher level items tend to have more of it.

Even if you find an item with +resist, it'll probably have some kind of armor on it, either from Dex or the item's natural armor.

By focusing on stacking resistances, you still naturally gain armor.

Because your armor is naturally high, it's on a harsher diminishing returns. Because your resistances are low, every point of resistance you gain is on much softer diminishing returns. Keeping in mind that more mitigation stacks with itself, you still want to get your resistances up and out of the lowered DRs.

The best mitigation would be from balancing your resistances and armor to a close percentage. Because you have natural sources of armor, the best way to even these stats is by finding resists.

Now, let's talk Vitality. Vitality is great because your mitigation is multiplied by your health to effectively increase how long you'll live. However, fact 3 is that your heals do not scale.

If your only interest was surviving large hits, Vitality would be the perfect second stat to stack. The problem comes in that a large portion of our defensive skillset is based on heals.

By increasing your health pool, you reduce the effective percentage of your heals.

Naturally you want your heals to be effective, but you ALSO want to not die in 2 hits. You should get enough health and mitigation to survive through the cooldowns of your defensive abilities.

Stacking a lot of health for inferno sounds like a good idea, but because of the limited means of getting health back, it's not good in the big picture. If you have a choice between having a lot of mitigation or health, you'll want mitigation, and by mitigation I mean resists. Gear naturally has a plethora of stats and although you could find gear with Vit/Dex/Armor/Resist/+Life, you'll find yourself in situations comparing gear for the individual merit of each stat.

So if I had to sum all of this up in the smallest bit of information...

Stack resists.
statisticalfool
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Reply #52 on: May 26, 2012, 12:00:28 PM

Ignore. Armor is strictly linear. Standard "diminishing returns on armor" myth (see also LoL).

https://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5149150485?page=1

That said, there's a sweet spot between armor/resists/health to maximize your effective health.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Ag4BdvmMzezudEFJTUpBYU54aFZCX3JlcHhqSVhwOEE&output=html is one part of this: the number there is the amount of armor that's equal to one point of resist.


bhodi
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Reply #53 on: May 26, 2012, 05:11:04 PM

It's not "Ignore", you probably just didn't read past the first 2 paragraphs.He demolishes the standard diminishing returns mythin halfway through.

Though you can tl;dr and say "stop stacking so much vitality, because it has diminishing returns, and your optimal goal is to make dodge and resists equal, and because of our dex->armor, resist numbers are harder to get on gear so stack them."

That spreadsheet is helpful.
Amaron
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Reply #54 on: May 27, 2012, 02:25:12 PM

It's not "Ignore", you probably just didn't read past the first 2 paragraphs.He demolishes the standard diminishing returns mythin halfway through.

I stopped reading as soon as he called diminishing returns a fact.    Reading through the post again he definitely doesn't understand that the returns are strictly linear.   The reason resists are better is solely because of multiplicative stacking.

Gearing for Act 2 farming is nearly impossible right now though.    It's much harder to get all the mobs debuffed with -%dmg.    Thus you need some truly epic pieces with +resists +all resists +armor +stats.    Even with all that the kind of build you have to use is so boring it will make you cry.    Depending on what they say tomorrow it might be better to just quit for a couple months and just come back when they fix everything.
Goumindong
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Reply #55 on: May 27, 2012, 05:59:37 PM

Depending on how you're defining what a return it it makes a lot of sense.

For instance, if you're talking about survival time, each point of armor adds x% increased hit points. But that is from your base, and not current survival. If we figure the return[survival time after last point/survival time before last point] of each point the returns are diminishing.

Given that is how i define the "return" function which makes a lot of sense since it accurately will be able to tell you whether or not armor/resistance/hit points are valuable at the current margin armor[and resistances and hit points] all have diminishing returns.
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Reply #56 on: May 27, 2012, 06:07:34 PM

I don't know if I'm crack or if the builder is bugged but I don't understand, it says you have exploding palm as your right click and sweeping wind at the same time?  My choices for right click are lashing tail kick, tempest rush and wave of light.
Goumindong
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Reply #57 on: May 27, 2012, 06:13:06 PM

I don't know if I'm crack or if the builder is bugged but I don't understand, it says you have exploding palm as your right click and sweeping wind at the same time?  My choices for right click are lashing tail kick, tempest rush and wave of light.

Enable elective mode
Miasma
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Reply #58 on: May 27, 2012, 06:19:48 PM

Holy crap, I assumed that just meant I could drag and drop the icons on the action bar to where I wanted them, I had no idea I could have multiple abilities from the same tree.  Blahrg, thanks.
Llyse
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Reply #59 on: May 28, 2012, 05:07:17 PM

From the description of the Passive resistance skill, elemental resistances means anything bar physical resistance right?
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Reply #60 on: May 28, 2012, 06:39:57 PM

For instance, if you're talking about survival time, each point of armor adds x% increased hit points. But that is from your base, and not current survival. If we figure the return[survival time after last point/survival time before last point] of each point the returns are diminishing.

So you're saying if the survival per point formula doesn't provide an exponential curve then it's diminishing?
Goumindong
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Reply #61 on: May 29, 2012, 12:48:22 PM

For instance, if you're talking about survival time, each point of armor adds x% increased hit points. But that is from your base, and not current survival. If we figure the return[survival time after last point/survival time before last point] of each point the returns are diminishing.

So you're saying if the survival per point formula doesn't provide an exponential curve then it's diminishing?

No, i am saying whether or not its diminishing depends on what you're looking at. And looking at in that way makes a lot of sense.

We can think of each point of armor adding an amount of survivability that is a flat amount or we can think of each point of armor adding an amount of survivability relative to the amount we had before it.

If we think of it in the first way then defining whether a point of armor or hit point or resistances depends on the amount of armor or hit points or resistances. You have to construct a table to determine whether something is worth it or not.

But if we think of it in the second way, we simply have to compare the relative numbers. You do a simple calculation for each armor difference and don't need a table, hell, you can probably even eyeball it.

Every % increase in armor over the current value performs exactly like a % increase in resistances or a % increase in hit points. You take the one that gives you the highest raw % increase in the combination.

When we think of it in that way, then the return is indeed diminishing. You need more raw value in order to get the same % return.

I mean, think of it this way. If you got a 4% return on an investment each year, year after year, would you say that your return was increasing? Because 4% is exponential growth.
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Reply #62 on: May 29, 2012, 07:35:19 PM

Most people would say that's increasing returns, I think. It's okay, though. We understand economists do math differently. Heart

Seriously though, your reasoning does makes sense (and will actually help me in the future when comparing gear, I think), it's just that
a) in general, framing everything in terms of absolute EHP makes it easy to compare wholly different builds to each other, and
b) while relative changes are easier to eyeball, putting all the variables into one formula for EHP makes it easier to do on a spreadsheet.

For posterity, assuming lv60 monsters:

(edited because numbers are hard)
Relative: (3000 + new_armor) / (3000 + old_armor) vs (300 + new_resists) / (300 + old_resists) vs (new_health / old_health)
Absolute: (health * (3000 + armor) / 3000 * (300 + resists) / 300), compute for various values of health/armor/resists as needed.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2012, 07:40:43 PM by ezrast »
Sophismata
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Reply #63 on: May 30, 2012, 06:34:13 AM

Why do people over-complicate this?

Q. What does armour do?
A. It keeps you alive.

Q. Is each additional point of armour keeping me alive for a shorter period of time than the last point? (That's a mouthful).
A. No. Every point of armour is just as effective as the last point at keeping you alive.


Damage mitigation is a means to an end. Armour (and resistance) exists to prolong the character's lifepsan. It provides a linear return.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 06:38:17 AM by Sophismata »

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ezrast
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Reply #64 on: June 01, 2012, 11:40:36 PM

So, after getting bored out of my skull with my monk for reasons I detailed in the whine thread, I finally hit the 50s and came up with http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#bZgYiQ!dcY!ccaYYZ. Use it with a slow 2h, get spirit regen on your weapon and helm, spam away from a distance with Lashing Tail Kick + Hand of Ytar, jump into melee for a few seconds while invincible to regen your spirit to full, repeat. It turned the class into a fun in-and-out hit-and-run sort of kiter. Keeping Sweeping Wind at 3 stacks was awkward since I wasn't built for crit but I had enough spirit regen that I could recast it every 5 seconds indefinitely once I got there (in combat I didn't need to since Hand of Ytar still counts as a melee attack for the purposes of refreshing Sweeping Wind).

Worked okay through act 1 hell but as I progress it seems to be getting me killed more and more. I don't know how much of this is me hitting the gear wall that comes with progressing through hell, and how much is the build being incredibly subpar. Switching to a more standard building doesn't improve my chances a lot but that might just be me being terrible at melee. Has anyone else tried anything like this? Any way to eke out any more passive spirit regen that I'm not seeing?
Amaron
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Reply #65 on: June 02, 2012, 05:44:41 PM

I mean, think of it this way. If you got a 4% return on an investment each year, year after year, would you say that your return was increasing?
Yes
Llyse
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Reply #66 on: June 03, 2012, 09:23:31 PM

Inferno Act I, looking for Leoric's Mansion.

I'm 46k hp 5X% magic find 9.9k dps ->11.8 with the Breath of Heaven buff. 280ish resist all

Still can't fight some champion mobs solo...

I'm guessing I need to buy more expensive gear... geh.

What are your stats like Bhodi?
Ice Cream Emperor
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Reply #67 on: June 03, 2012, 10:50:45 PM


46k hp, yikes. I suggest turning a significant portion of that +vitality into some sort of resist. Unless you have a much better means of refilling your life than my build does, I guess.

Anyways, for comparison, my monk is in a similar spot -- suffering through Act 1 Inferno, dying repeatedly to a variety of elite pack types (I just had to actually leave the game for the first time, trapped at a zone point with two packs of indestructible mortaring mobs on either side) -- and I have 24k hp, 2700 armour, 42% dodge change and 437 resist to everything. Dps is 10k or so.

Mostly I think I just need more armour, most of my pieces are still in the level 51-55 range. But I'm getting to the point where anything on the AH that looks like it's really worth upgrading to is like 500k+.

Llyse
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Reply #68 on: June 03, 2012, 11:44:28 PM

Yeah, I'm definitely finding problems with refilling my HP now so will start searching for Dex/All Resist/My resist (please don't pick lightning   awesome, for real )instead of Vital.

I'm doing ok, but damn 420k for my weapon... is not cool.

Is it me or has sockets become devalued?

I don't search for socketed weapons anymore... the only place sockets are important is the headpiece I feel now.
Xanthippe
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Reply #69 on: June 04, 2012, 07:47:41 AM


Mostly I think I just need more armour, most of my pieces are still in the level 51-55 range. But I'm getting to the point where anything on the AH that looks like it's really worth upgrading to is like 500k+.


Pages and pages and pages of 1mil+ weapons for level 60s, I'm sure most of them going unsold. Not much under that. I guess people would rather sit on their shitty prices than actually sell the weapons for 100-200k.
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