The sky has not fallen (yet)

[waylander]

Bioware Didn't Have to Lose 400,000 Subs - Guild Review

I think that the free 30 days padded the real number of people who are leaving or have left the game, and that the next quarterly report will be bad.  I do think they will stay between 500,000 and 850,000 subs for their first year, but short of an awesome expansion they won't be anywhere close to 2 million subs again. 

SWTOR feels like it has no community soul because they gave us no real community tools, and the game launched without too many features that gamers of 2012 expect from an AAA title.  Certainly they will be profitable for a while, but I think they underestimate the pace at which they can lose customers.  Warhammer and AOC had awesome launches too, sold a million+ boxes, and a year later both games were considered failures because they ignored the key issues that made their games unfun.

SWTOR can turn it around and be a good MMO, but it depends on how many people they are willing to lose before they put in the mechanics that their customers are demanding.

[caladein]

We can wait and see just what sort of patch content they end up putting out. You can either make the logical conclusion that 1.1 and 1.2 were hints of the sort of content you'll be seeing from patches (QoL and repeatable content) especially with subs falling, or you can read into what developers have said about their underperforming game and hold your breath for class story content.

I don't think that's a realistic conclusion to draw given that the two kinds of content exist on completely different release schedules.  No one should have expected chapter 4 within the first handful of major patches (unless "major patches" were released at a glacial rate, which they really haven't been), so it not being there doesn't belie anything.

New features and a smattering of level-cap content is pretty much what I expected to get this far into the game's life.  Didn't see a world event (but that's because I don't really care for them) and might have liked to have seen a new bonus series in the ~40s, but I can see the logic of not having that instead of the new set of dailies.

[Fabricated]

They need to be able to crank out quality content in short order, address bugs, and add modern features. Those're tall orders individually.

And from the latest raid tier, I'm doubting they can do it. Denova is basically like "Ruby Sanctum" only it takes longer and is harder/less fun.

[waylander]

They need to be able to crank out quality content in short order, address bugs, and add modern features. Those're tall orders individually.

And from the latest raid tier, I'm doubting they can do it. Denova is basically like "Ruby Sanctum" only it takes longer and is harder/less fun.

Many of the black hole vendor pieces are, statwise, inferior to the Rakata. I'm glad we can socket pieces, but I still don't like the itemization on the black hole non campaign stuff.

[Fabricated]

I haven't looked at all of the black hole stuff in a while but ironically I think the non-campaign stuff for Vanguards is better itemized than the campaign stuff.

I wish they would've done the reitemization they said they were going to do since my gear is shitted up with gobs of literally useless accuracy.

[Paelos]

Having not seen the new dungeons, do they still have the trash balance that the older stuff did? One of my complaints on the Rakghoul dungeon was that the trash was both more obnoxious, more abundant, and tougher than the bosses.

[Sjofn]

No respecs?

I assume you mean "no switching ACs," because actual respecs have been in since the beginning.

Subsequent characters do level faster, since the Legacy system gives you presence bonuses for each capped out companion (and a fat 100 points for hitting 50 with a human.) This significantly increases the power of your next character's companion characters, so you get through things faster, can take on Heroics with fewer people than before, etc. Doing 'everything' on each planet so far on this playthrough has me significantly outleveling each one by the end, and that's without even touching alternate sources of XP like space combat, flashpoints, or PVP.

This only applies IF you've capped out a companion or hit 50 with a human.  I've been in since the head start, have two 50s, and none of this applies to me.  (Vette is my highest companion at 9k.  Most are sub-4k.)  The only Legacy bonus I have is the Inquisitor/Warrior buff added to all my characters.

Duoing also makes a massive difference over soloing in advancement.

My solo characters are also facerolling the shit out of things. We definitely do not need to duo at this point in our respective presence lives in order to run roughshod over everything, we just like to do it. I know I have a ridiculous presence compared to someone with just one level 50 (by the way, presence appears to have a cap at the lower levels  ), but ... I do not understand why or how you only have one companion capped out of two level 50's. I can't imagine that is standard.

[Ingmar]

(Vette is my highest companion at 9k.  Most are sub-4k.) 

Well ok, yes, if you want to ignore them, sure. I don't think that is normal play behavior for the average player though.

[FieryBalrog]

No respecs?

I assume you mean "no switching ACs," because actual respecs have been in since the beginning.

Dual spec.

[Sjofn]

That isn't a "respec." 

[Minvaren]

(Vette is my highest companion at 9k.  Most are sub-4k.) 

Well ok, yes, if you want to ignore them, sure. I don't think that is normal play behavior for the average player though.

Anecdote <> data, but excepting my romance companion on my first character, I didn't have a single companion on any of my characters above 4k until 1.2 went in.

Since then, between my pocket Armormech and getting more and more companions' storylines completed, my alts are regularly facerolling groups 3-4 levels higher than them.

[Fabricated]

Having not seen the new dungeons, do they still have the trash balance that the older stuff did? One of my complaints on the Rakghoul dungeon was that the trash was both more obnoxious, more abundant, and tougher than the bosses.

The trash is obnoxious in Denova but most of the worst is skippable if people can pay attention. The bosses are a pain in the ass and not very fun on hardmode.

[Lantyssa]

Well ok, yes, if you want to ignore them, sure. I don't think that is normal play behavior for the average player though.

I'd say my style is rather closer to average than Mr. MinMax.

Unless you're considering average the MMO Min-Maxer.

[Sjofn]

I had no idea building my companions' rep was going to do a goddamn thing when I maxed most of them, wanting more story in my story-based MMO is hardly "minmax."

EDIT: That said, yes, I suspect the weirdos who didn't max their companions previously because there was "no reason to" have several carrots they will merrily follow to max that rep now.

[caladein]

The presence is certainly a bit of an incentive to get one of my companions out from -1000 in the near future.  But I wouldn't do it had they not taken the cooldown off of gifts, so now it goes 10x faster.

[Sjofn]

I am really not sure why they had that cooldown in the first place, it was very silly.

[Sky]

I'd say my style is rather closer to average than Mr. MinMax.

Unless you're considering average the MMO Min-Maxer.

We do need to stop encouraging the lunatic fringe by making it normal behavior. BUT I DIGRESS.

I capped Mako out pretty early (somewhere in the early 40s, iirc), but I got lucky on several vectors: I played tank spec and she's a healer; I played light path BH and she was tuned to almost every decision I made; she was the romance character (lots of extra affection). I never played with another companion outside the very few forced moments.

I had maybe a couple hundred on each of the others, and Skadge still doesn't like me. I'm not going to grind affection with gifts, that's just lame; I'm not going to use a companion that doesn't make sense for my build (ie; gimme heals). And as I'm finding on my new Sage, when the appropriate spec companion is not compatible, you gain almost no affection through story. Qyzen barely tolerates my Sage but I need a tank.

I still think one of the bigger mistakes they made, given it's a Bioware game, is giving companions too late. Obviously more story for the non-starter companions is a must. And dropping the idea of the customization kit slot affecting the companion's role was just nuts. Best you can hope for was my situation with Mako, otherwise it's varying levels of compromise and frustration.

I guess I should put my voice on the boards, since they tout listening to the playerbase, but I just want to play the game and leave the design to the designers. Catering to the loudest and most persistent fans is a recipe for awful mmo.

[Sjofn]

Again, I say: Wanting more story out of my story-based MMO via my companions is not a min/max issue. I didn't do it because "oh man I will get more presence" or "oh man they'll crit more when I have them craft." I did it because "I want to talk to my companions." I have a hard time believing a majority of players playing this are straight up refusing to raise the rep of their companions because of some vague objection to gifts or whatever.

EDIT: I mean shit, I have held back on doing the Last Conversation with a couple of my companions because I don't want to be utterly done speaking to them yet.

[proudft]

On my trooper, I only really gave a shit about the wardroid's conversations, because he was funny.  Everyone else was just languishing down wherever they were from whatever random gifts I happened across while leveling. 

When the Presence bonus went in, though, I maxxed them out ASAP (well, 4 of em, mr. bombadier is still in-progress, he is clooose but he is fussy about his gift types).

[Sky]

Again, I say: Wanting more story out of my story-based MMO via my companions is not a min/max issue.

I also want a lot more out of my companions. My point is, the game does its best to get in the way of that. How do you raise outside of gits? I'm probably the only one who hates that mechanic, but you have to admit it's a pretty retarded way to cop out on the fact that you won't be getting affection unless a companion is a)useful to your build; b)the correct mind-set for your character's conversational choices; and c)unlocked early enough.

I'm not attacking the fact that you want more story, we're totally on the same page. But it's eminently in the doman of min/max if you HAVE to use gifts (on my BH on 4/5 companions) to unlock dialogue options, whether your goal is dialog or stat bonuses.

I like Torian, and I guess I could put him in dps mode and be ok, ditto Blizz. Both would be ok with the way I converse...but how much affection do the dailies give (though dailies are another crappy mmo tack-on). Maybe for chapter 4 stuff I can use teh guys....if gearflation doesn't force my hand back to Mako. Skadge and Gault are pretty much unavailable, though I do make concessions to light/dark paths having some unique companions. But again, I think it's a cop out for not having light and dark paths for each companion (especially jedi with the heavier ramifications of alignment on them).

[Ingmar]

I am always pretty much up to my ass in gifts anyway (that is how I level mission skills, as the low level blue mats are pretty useless in the long run.)

But it's eminently in the doman of min/max if you HAVE to use gifts (on my BH on 4/5 companions) to unlock dialogue options, whether your goal is dialog or stat bonuses.

This statement makes no sense to me at all.

[Nevermore]

[I also want a lot more out of my companions. My point is, the game does its best to get in the way of that. How do you raise outside of gits? I'm probably the only one who hates that mechanic, but you have to admit it's a pretty retarded way to cop out on the fact that you won't be getting affection unless a companion is a)useful to your build; b)the correct mind-set for your character's conversational choices; and c)unlocked early enough.

C isn't an issue.  You get more affection on the later companions than you do the earlier ones.  Nadia, the last consular companion, is the first companion I maxed out even though I never used a gift on her.

[Soln]

Yeah but (Mr.Obvious here) you have to bother playing that far to get that last companion.  The fun died for me mid-30's and nothing on the companions seemed to be improving.

[Sjofn]

Oh, I forgot, if it's not something you, personally, feel like doing, it's obviously something you'd only do to min/max, even though there was absolutely no clear reason to do so when I did it.

I AM A CRAZY FROTHY MIN/MAXING HARDCORE POOPSOCKER RAAAAAAR

I don't deny I play the shit out of this game, as I play the shit out of any Bioware game, but frankly the "boo hoo, giving presents gives me a sad, therefore anyone with more than one maxxed companion is a CRAZY MIN/MAXXER" thing is fucking stupid. It's not a fucking min/max thing. It's a giving the tiniest bit of effort in the ways provided to you thing. The gifts are there because you just can't max affection on everyone. You can't. I can use whoever the fuck I feel like (and I do) on my trooper, and he still needed to use presents. I did it because I cared to do it, not because OH GOD MUST MAX ... NOTHING AT ALL, BUT TRUST ME I AM MAXXING IT.

That I am now being rewarded extra for it is just a happy surprise.

[Fordel]

Gift Giving isn't Min/Maxing. It's just Maxing.


If you didn't have gifts, THEN Companion affections would be a Min/Max thing... but you do, so you can purely pick dialogues with them on RPing instead of affection gains.

[Ingmar]

Yeah I hadn't thought of that. The gifts do act as a safety net for people who want to give particular answers even though they give -points with the companion they're using.

[Zetor]

I did find it strange how trivial it is to cap the last companion (I got Yuun into the 8000s without taking him on any missions, and maxed "the last consular companion" in less than a planet's time and kept her for the rest of chapter 3 because, well, she was the most useful companion for my heal-spec sage) and how hard it is to cap the first one. On my trooper I was basically glued to Dorne (2nd companion) because that's the only sane gameplay choice for a tanky vanguard... maxed her affection out fairly easily as well.

I am a min-maxer and decided to max my trooper's companions out for the crafting bonuses anyway; they were fairly easy except for Vik. Screw Vik. 

[DraconianOne]

I had Vik at -75 affection at once. Then reconsidered becuase he has the craft skill bonuses for my craft skills. 

[Falconeer]

I used to doomcast this game because, in my opinion, the cool story bits were not enough to hide the outdated "everything else", or "feels like wow with less fun". And I was concerned about longevity, as I couldn't see the sticky in it once once you are done with a couple of stories. Replaying the game with the other faction works, but to stomach the PvE all over again just to see a few different cutscenes for another class is a thing for devoted ones only (and it seems there's less of them than Bioware anticipated).

I used to say that he game would have been OK... with no subscription fee. That the kind and amount of content, tacked to an outdated WoW clone, was going to have the lifetime of your typical single-player Bioware game: a couple of months.

Turns out I was right on everything, except one thing: I am one of the very few who is still paying and playing after 5 months. That's weird I know, and it's all due to the fast-paced PvP action and some real life friends that are in it with me. You could say I dislike everything about SWTOR, or that it all ranges from "OK" to "Meh..", except the actual PvP combat (when you are not perma-CrowdControlled) which turned out to be fun and responsive after some around-launch patches. So regardless of the shortcomings I've been able to get a lot of fun out of it, and until GW2's release I was happy to keep paying for it. It's my "daily shooter", we treat it kind of like a Team Fortress or a DOTA. We just fire it up, we have some fun, and that's all we ask. A glorified, dumbed down, multiplayer team based game. But that's fine.

You know where's the irony? That I'll have to stop playing very soon since no one else wants to pay for this anymore, so warzones don't start anymore.
My server, which used to be the second most crowded in EU (outside of French and German community ones, which seem healthy) is down to a whopping maximum of 15 people in fleet during peak hours. Fifteen. It's about 3 or 4 during the day. If that isn't a dead server on a dead game I don't know what it.

Like many other here, I wanted to like the game. That's why I bought it right away despite the negative impressions. Patches can happen, right?
It was simply impossible. Irritating from day one for countless stupid choices and disappointing technical limitations, it failed to ever turn the boat around or even just tip it, and the butchering of every possible PvP aspect (PvP is supposedly self-generating content) pretty much falls in line with the lack of things to do when you are a PvE player at 50.

So the same question I asked before launch happens to come back hauntingly: with all the decent free to play DIKUs and WoW clones out there, and with the Mass Effect saga already out, why should people pay a sub for this? Cause, you know, lightsabers only bring you that far.

[Lantyssa]

I also want a lot more out of my companions. My point is, the game does its best to get in the way of that. How do you raise outside of gits? I'm probably the only one who hates that mechanic, but you have to admit it's a pretty retarded way to cop out on the fact that you won't be getting affection unless a companion is a)useful to your build; b)the correct mind-set for your character's conversational choices; and c)unlocked early enough.

No, I hate gifts, too.  They're an unnatural barrier in the way of what should be a natural progression.

I am always pretty much up to my ass in gifts anyway (that is how I level mission skills, as the low level blue mats are pretty useless in the long run.)

See, it's a passive trait.  You don't even realize you're doing it.

Oh, I forgot, if it's not something you, personally, feel like doing, it's obviously something you'd only do to min/max, even though there was absolutely no clear reason to do so when I did it.

Yikes!  I was referring to Ingmar.

You just play the shit out of Bioware games as you say.  (Which does go back to my original point about the average player.  Neither of you are the average player.  At all.)

[Raknor]

Well for the first time, in a very long time, my guild had 2 people online during prime time.  PvP queues on my server are now taking 30 minutes to pop. Which is essentially keeping a very large portion of my guild from logging in.  If cross realm pvp queues or server mergers do not happen soon I'm going to guess we will be losing a large portion of our players. 

After talking to a few of them, they are going to try Diablo 3 even through that game style doesn't really suit them. But its the best of the options out there.  WoW ran its course, SWTOR doesn't have players pvping, and Rift didn't have sticky with them.  The majority of people are waiting for GW2.  The sad part is we were running two 16 man raids a week. Last week we had to cut it down to one 16 man raid and one 8 man. The 16 man raid we had to scratch together 2 filler slots at the last minute so we could even go.

I think most of our players are starting to realize if the decline in population continues they won't be playing this game in a few months.  If they aren't playing this game in a few months, why log in now to work on advancing your character?  Which then spirals into everyone not logging in because their friends aren't online.

[PalmTrees]

I got a sorc and jugg to 50 and only the sorc had managed to max out a companion (khem) just through conversations, and the occasional gift when there wasn't an underworld metal mission available. My jugg recently hit 50, and they were at ~9k, 6k, 4k, 3k, 3k. Khem was the only one with some quests out in the actual world rather than the exit stage left stuff everyone else does. They were just average, but they were there at least.

My sorc had to run dailies picking the options that gave points for whoever I was trying to max (regardless of how badly they went against how my char should act) and keep guys out on gift missions. I was doing that for the crafting bonuses and to see what little story each companion had. Now that there's legacy stuff, my jugg will just get Pierce maxxed as I need a ranged tank unlock. Probably let my jugg's other  companions languish as so far the companion stories haven't been worth putting up with more Belsavis and Esh-ka and I want to run at least one republic character before I quit.

[Sky]

Oh, I forgot, if it's not something you, personally, feel like doing, it's obviously something you'd only do to min/max, even though there was absolutely no clear reason to do so when I did it.

I AM A CRAZY FROTHY MIN/MAXING HARDCORE POOPSOCKER RAAAAAAR

I don't know why you're trying so hard to make this adversarial. I'm just bitching about the gift mechanic.

I do agree with Fordel's revision that it's maxing rather than min/maxing.

[caladein]

No, I hate gifts, too.  They're an unnatural barrier in the way of what should be a natural progression.

What's the alternative?  Saying "no story for you" if you didn't perfectly set-up your responses and companion selection?  (Which would be actual min/maxing.)  Is grinding repeatable missions better than gifts?  Or would you just get rid of affection?

Gifts are an amelioratory mechanic, like ME3 multiplayer is.  It's a system one can spend some time/effort in that makes another system easier to live with for completionists while also keeping logical coherence.

[Lantyssa]

What's the alternative?  Saying "no story for you" if you didn't perfectly set-up your responses and companion selection?  (Which would be actual min/maxing.)  Is grinding repeatable missions better than gifts?  Or would you just get rid of affection?

Yep.  G'bye.  They're already gated by where you are in the overall story.  There's no good reason to not allow them to pop up when they're ready, and they'll flow more naturally.