Mass Effect 3 Spoiler Thread [Spoiler tag free, beware]

[Nayr]

Don't indent your paragraphs, just put a blank line between them.

Sorry, my bad.

I'd argue that's more of individual viewer interpretation, than a fact -- David Gaider took part in quite a few arguments on the official BioWare forums, and his stance generally seems to be the Templars attempt to carry out a difficult (both morally and practically) task to the best of their ability. So i don't think he views them as the villains, nor that he actively tried to portray them as such.

Well certainly not all Templars are bad. But their administration is extremely crooked. Knight-Commander Meredith was awful before she got that Lyrium idol, that just put her over the edge. And Lord-Seeker Lambert was as unethical as the magisters back in his homeland, willing to do anything to suit his ends.

The order of the Templars, as a whole, spent a thousand years persecuting innocent people for things they had no power over. Ignoring the fact that they contribute to the problems as much as the mages do. In that, I see a villain. Rather than help the mages, they punish them.

Not to mention nearly every time the Templars are featured in a DA story, the player is fighting them. You fight them in Awakening, several parts of DAII, and they're the opposite side of the protagonist in Asunder. That doesn't leave lots of room for interpretation.

[Merusk]

Persecuting? Templars say, "Hey, any one of you could - at any moment - become a demon and wreck shit.  Maybe - just maybe - we should keep you all together and away from a society that has no defense against you."

I really don't see any more of a problem with that than I do keeping any other armaments out of the general population.  In the span of the games alone how many times do we see mages say, "trust me, I'm good," only to fuck things up because of Demons?

I'd say the Templars are pretty damn chill about it.  Persecution would be, "Kill all mages as soon as they're discovered. We can't take the chance."

[Tebonas]

The thing the Templars desperately need is better oversight. Which in theory is the Chantries job, isn't it?

Everything bad that happened in Kirkwall could be traced back to Grand Cleric Elthina, who was a nice person but a bad leader.

The needlessly antagonistic way the Templars treat the Mages is not only unfair, but also (given what makes Mages into Bloodmages) borderline suicidal. Which doesn't change the fact that Templars as an organisations are sorely needed in that world where mages can get posessed by a demon when they stub a toe.

[Merusk]

That I would agree with.  Kirkwall was entirely the failing of the Grand Cleric to recognize the antagonism of Meredith and replace her.

[Paelos]

Don't indent your paragraphs, just put a blank line between them.

This should really be your grief title to save time.

[Lantyssa]

Trippy's grief title would need to be a page long if he used it for things people shouldn't do.

[Nayr]

The thing the Templars desperately need is better oversight. Which in theory is the Chantries job, isn't it?

Everything bad that happened in Kirkwall could be traced back to Grand Cleric Elthina, who was a nice person but a bad leader.

The needlessly antagonistic way the Templars treat the Mages is not only unfair, but also (given what makes Mages into Bloodmages) borderline suicidal. Which doesn't change the fact that Templars as an organisations are sorely needed in that world where mages can get posessed by a demon when they stub a toe.

Actually that's the job of the Seekers of Truth. The Templars exist to watch over the mages, and the Seekers exist to watch over the Templars. And only the Divine has authority over the Seekers.

But Lambert, who took over as the head of the Seekers after High-Seeker Aldren was murdered in Dawn of the Seeker, is very bigoted against mages. So Meredith was just an exemplary worker to him.

Also possession is not that simple, a mage has to approached by the demon and the mage have a weak will or be willing. It's not every slight problem can cause an abomination that will kill everyone. The rub being that fear can make a person weaker and more susceptible. And all the Templars do is try to use fear to control the mages. They contribute to the problem.

But we're getting off topic and I'm sure that's more offensive to the admin than my use of indenting instead of spacing.

Back on topic. . . .

So yeah, next DLC likely to be final DLC. Saw on Patrick Weeke's twitter that they had their last meeting and he was expressing how great it was to be a part of everything. So unless they've written/planned out more than one DLC in the time before Omega released, next is probably the last.

As for what it's going to be, there's a million and one ideas for how it is going to be. Sam Hulick has stated to be composing tearjerking and synthy music for it, and it's been stated that the whole writing team, Mac, Patrick, etc, were involved, and according to various sources, Seth Green and apparently Freddy Prinze Jr have recorded(but it's more likely that the whole squad cast has been called in.) So they're apparently going all out.

[Ingmar]

The problem with these arguments about Templars is always that people look at the mages as if they're equivalent to any persecuted minority group in the modern world. They're explicitly not.

[Lantyssa]

You might think that until you find out you're a mage.

Personally I think of them akin to mutants in Marvel.  Fantastic powers, deserving of rights like everyone else, but if something goes wrong it really goes wrong...

But we're getting off topic and I'm sure that's more offensive to the admin than my use of indenting instead of spacing.

Don't bet your board access on that...

[Paelos]

You'll find that we don't care what you say as long as you don't space it incorrectly or treat it like Twitter.

[Fordel]

Mages in DA cannot have nice things, they show this again and again and AGAIN.

[Nayr]

You'll find that we don't care what you say as long as you don't space it incorrectly or treat it like Twitter.

So as long as I don't not space, and refrain from using @ and # tags, I can say whatever the hell I want whenever the fuck I want? :D

[Ingmar]

Obviously there's emotional resonance there for us with 'normal' persecuted minorities, but I think the best analogy is actually more along the lines of an infectious disease with no treatment. Society has an awfully strong interest in forcible quarantine given the circumstances.

You'll find that we don't care what you say as long as you don't space it incorrectly or treat it like Twitter.

So as long as I don't not space, and refrain from using @ and # tags, I can say whatever the hell I want whenever the fuck I want? :D

Well, we do have enough people banned for other reasons that I could make a full Blood Bowl team out of them. So, you might want to add things like "being Broughden" or whatever to the list.

[Paelos]

So as long as I don't not space, and refrain from using @ and # tags, I can say whatever the hell I want whenever the fuck I want? :D

Well, I complain all the time about the same stuff and I've yet to get banned. But generally, I think the guideline is not to be an insufferable douche and you'll be fine. And even if you're an insufferable douche, know when to walk away.

[Nayr]

So, anybody got any ideas as to what the next/final ME3 DLC could be?

I've noticed a trend with the DLCs, they seem to unlock new clusters/nebulas that are on the galaxy map in ME3 but is otherwise unvisitable.

From Ashes opened the Exodus Cluster
Leviathan opened the Crescent Nebula and Pylos Nebula
Omega should have opened the Omega Nebula, but didn't(maybe because Omega was by fan demand and made by Team Montreal who make the multiplayer stuff.)

The only remaining clusters on the galaxy map that are unopened are Omega Nebula and the Hawking Eta cluster.

Omega was already shown/retaken, so the only thing there that could warrant a DLC besides Omega is the Galactic Core, where Cerberus set up Avernus Station.

And Hawking Eta was where the Derelict Reaper was, but that fell into the star so I don't think we could revisit that. But there is the matter of the Mass Accelerator weapon that disabled it. Perhaps it was the first generation of the Crucible, before it was adapted to be slapped onto the Citadel.

[Merusk]

You might think that until you find out you're a mage.

Personally I think of them akin to mutants in Marvel.  Fantastic powers, deserving of rights like everyone else, but if something goes wrong it really goes wrong...

Yeah, which is why I've never enjoyed the X-men comics.  I have too much empathy for the, "Dude, don't you see how dangerous you really are?" crowd.

Anything beyond that gets in to the Politics board.

You'll find that we don't care what you say as long as you don't space it incorrectly or treat it like Twitter.

So as long as I don't not space, and refrain from using @ and # tags, I can say whatever the hell I want whenever the fuck I want? :D

Up to the point you become a psycho unable to let anything go, carrying grudges across threads or a gibbering troll who makes everything about a single issue (or yourself), yes.

Oh, and no NSFW crap outside of those threads or anything at all in the Tubgirl/ lemonparty/goatse vein.

Generally, "don't be a douche, and act like you're a professional and not a college freshman" is the best way of going.

[Ingmar]

Aw, those poor old lemonparty guys don't deserve to be in the same category as those other two.

[Nayr]

You might think that until you find out you're a mage.

Personally I think of them akin to mutants in Marvel.  Fantastic powers, deserving of rights like everyone else, but if something goes wrong it really goes wrong...

Yeah, which is why I've never enjoyed the X-men comics.  I have too much empathy for the, "Dude, don't you see how dangerous you really are?" crowd.

Anything beyond that gets in to the Politics board.

Well it's a moot point in X-Men(Which btw, David Gaider admittedly is a fan of.) Mutation is symptom of evolution, in the future, there will be a time when those who carry the X gene are the majority.

It's arguably the same with magic in Dragon Age. In DAII, you hear through NPC chatter that there are more and more mages popping up in recent years than in past years. Meaning everybody will have magical abilities eventually.

Also the Templars, how the function, is reminiscent of the Sentinels from X-Men. And Anders with his whole revolutionary attitude, is like Magneto.

And Mass Effect related. . . One thing I didn't like in Mass Effect 3 was how the Ardat-Yakshi and Justicars became a clone of the mages and Templars. In ME2, Samara said there were only three Ardat-Yakshi known to exist, her daughters. Yet in ME3, there's a whole Justicar-managed monastery full of them that the Reapers used to make their Banshees.

[Lantyssa]

Obviously there's emotional resonance there for us with 'normal' persecuted minorities, but I think the best analogy is actually more along the lines of an infectious disease with no treatment. Society has an awfully strong interest in forcible quarantine given the circumstances.

Like HIV?

[Ingmar]

Obviously there's emotional resonance there for us with 'normal' persecuted minorities, but I think the best analogy is actually more along the lines of an infectious disease with no treatment. Society has an awfully strong interest in forcible quarantine given the circumstances.

Like HIV?

No, more like something far more easily and randomly transmissible and visible, like leprosy or the plague.

I mean, I do get where you're coming from, yes.

[Merusk]

The argument will be made that those are invalid because we have medicines to prevent their transmission/ understand the transmission vector.    I'd have picked Human-transmissible Swine/ Avian Flu.  If that ever breaks out in an actual transmissible form you WILL see quarantines and it WILL be a good thing.

[Ingmar]

Well, yes, now we do. But "leper colony" is a phrase for a reason.

[Nayr]

Except for the fact that you're not going to catch magic or demonic possession just from being around a mage. Forcing a demon into a person's body takes a lot of time and effort, as evidenced by Tahrone from DAII.

Idealistically, the Circle of Magi is supposed to protect mages as much as it does the general population. Lot of people would blame any type of bad incident, a bad harvest, a stillbirth, an plague, on a nearby mage, and would lynch them. Also they're afraid of being turned into toads. Although magic is portrayed more scientifically in DA than it is magically, ironically.

Also fun fact, in Tevinter, the magisters practice blood magic all the time, and have done so for thousands of years, yet in the last millennium, there's never been an outbreak of demon hordes or possessions like there have been in the Circles of Magi. And we now know that the whole Darkspawn thing has nothing to do with their abuse of power, it's because they were foolish enough to believe the old gods when they said they could have the golden city. But it was black when they got there. So I'd just as quickly believe that the Templars cause more mages to be taken by demons than there would be if they were left allowed to watch over themselves.

Ideal solution: Let the mages go to the Circle of Magi for schooling in magic(it is the best place for that,) then when they pass the harrowing, they be allowed to return to their families and start lives. And if they commit crimes with their magic, let the templars handle them like proper law enforcement.

[Ingmar]

Except for the fact that you're not going to catch magic or demonic possession just from being around a mage.

No, you're just going to catch being dead. Which is the point.

[Nayr]

Except for the fact that you're not going to catch magic or demonic possession just from being around a mage.

No, you're just going to catch being dead. Which is the point.

You can catch death from anything. Bandits, foreign soldiers, Grey Wardens after you refuse to join, crooked nobles(I'd support locking Vaughan and his posse in a tower,) undercooked food, assassins, angry Templars, etc.

None of those things can heal you either. Magic can. Some spirits can even reverse death(like Wynne and Evangeline.)

Anders may have been a whiny terrorist, but he was doing a good thing at his clinic in Dark Town.

[Nonentity]

I poked in here to see what people were talking about, and saw that this is Dragon Age Hour in the Mass Effect 3 thread. Oh well.

I discovered the other day that I've spent 70 hours in the ME3 Multiplayer, an order of magnitude more than I spent in the single player. I guess that means I've officially stopped caring?

I am interested in seeing what sort of DLC they are planning on doing, though. I gotta go play Leviathan still.

[Merusk]

Well, yes, now we do. But "leper colony" is a phrase for a reason.

I know I was just trying to cut off a pedantic argument before it happened.


At the risk of derailing to politics, the arguments for free mages sound a lot like the arguments for gun rights.  The longer it goes on the more it sounds like it.

[Sjofn]

Everything bad that happened in Kirkwall could be traced back to Grand Cleric Elthina, who was a nice person but a bad leader.

Well, that and the old Tevinter mages turning Kirkwall into a hell pit for funsies (because mages are often stupid, especially Tevinter ones).

Also we don't know there haven't been outbreaks of demons in Tevinter like there have been in Fereldan and Kirkwall (which, again, is partly due to Tevinter bullshit from Before). In fact, I think that's a pretty terrible assumption to make. Plus that empire is hardly a model of Places People Want to Live, what with the slavery and even-worse-racism and mages getting to do whatever the fuck they want because regular people can't do a goddamn thing against them.


I am curious what the next (last?) DLC for ME3 is going to be, but if it's going to be another fucking twenty dollars, it doesn't really matter, because I do not trust it to be worth it. 

[Nayr]

Everything bad that happened in Kirkwall could be traced back to Grand Cleric Elthina, who was a nice person but a bad leader.

Well, that and the old Tevinter mages turning Kirkwall into a hell pit for funsies (because mages are often stupid, especially Tevinter ones).

Also we don't know there haven't been outbreaks of demons in Tevinter like there have been in Fereldan and Kirkwall (which, again, is partly due to Tevinter bullshit from Before). In fact, I think that's a pretty terrible assumption to make. Plus that empire is hardly a model of Places People Want to Live, what with the slavery and even-worse-racism and mages getting to do whatever the fuck they want because regular people can't do a goddamn thing against them.


I am curious what the next (last?) DLC for ME3 is going to be, but if it's going to be another fucking twenty dollars, it doesn't really matter, because I do not trust it to be worth it. 

All story DLC except Omega cost $10. If you paid 20, you got ripped off.

As much as Fenris likes to point out how bad things are in Tevinter for everybody except the Magisters(he cant go five minutes without saying "blood magic this, blood magic that" you'd think he would have mentioned if there were Kirkwall/Ferelden level demon outbreaks if only to justify himself when arguing with Merrill and Anders. And Anders also mentions that the Tevinters are the only ones who have ever looked for ways to cure possession(well, besides the Connor/Pharamond method.) Meaning if they succeeded(just because he lied about what he needed the ingredients for, doesn't mean he lied about there being a cure) then the Templars are being grossly negligent.

Not to mention out of a thousand years, the Templars have never looked for more ethical and humane ways to handle mages, or for ways to take away their powers without making them tranquil(which is what the Divine tried to do in Asunder, though they inadvertently discovered a cure for tranquility.)

Right in the Circle Mage origin, I saw an unbelievably simple and practical method that nobody ever noticed. The door to the phylactery chamber had runes carved into it that negate a mages' powers when in range. If they put those runes onto clothing or if a mage is willing, tattoo them onto them, they could make them completely harmless.

[Tannhauser]

I don't remember any mage NOT eventually turning. The game makes you fight Templars and exploits my personal distaste for religious zealots.  But I have to think the Templars are right.  They always think THEY can control it.  They always fail.

[Sjofn]

All story DLC except Omega cost $10. If you paid 20, you got ripped off.

Omega is the one I skipped.

[rk47]

Obviously there's emotional resonance there for us with 'normal' persecuted minorities, but I think the best analogy is actually more along the lines of an infectious disease with no treatment. Society has an awfully strong interest in forcible quarantine given the circumstances.

Like HIV?

I was thinking more of like... Jews.
They have Magical WMD and the Templars really want to kill them except it isn't so easy cause the White Demons keep giving them power.

[Nayr]

Michael Gamble via Twitter: "Sounds like people want a teaser about the upcoming DLC? We'll see what we can do :) "

[Nayr]

Dunno what the rules are here about double posting, but considering it's been almost 24 hours, I'll risk it.

I came across this little bit of info when talking to Avina while playing ME1.

Shepard: I'd like to know more about the Keepers.

Avina: Little is known about these peaceful servants of the Citadel, though they are essential to the operation and maintenance of the entire station. Citadel regulations protect the Keepersa gainst interference during the performance of their tasks. Failure to comply will result in harsh penalties. Keepers can be seen in all sections of the Citadel, but are typically found in and around the tower.

Shepard: Any particular reason there are so many keepers in this area?

Avina: The keepers do not communicate with other species. It is assumed, however, that the Tower houses the Citadel's primary control systems. Many of the stations systems, such as navigation and life support, function automatically. It is believed the keepers operate those systems from inside the Tower's inaccessible core. The keepers also make frequent appearances in the Council Chamber itself, thought they appear to be just passing through on their way to some other destination.

So according to Avina in as early as the first Mass Effect, there is a chamber inside of the Citadel Tower that no one has been able to get into. And they suspect that the Keepers operate key functions of the Citadel inside

And in Mass Effect 3, Shepard is transported by the Reaper Conduit into a never before seen area of the Citadel Tower that houses another master control panel, and leads into a chamber that houses the Reapers' Master A.I. which Shepard is the first person to ever access.

Does anybody else make the connection here?

[Ingmar]

That was always my assumption, that they were talking about the same place.