Mass Effect 3 Spoiler Thread [Spoiler tag free, beware]

[Sjofn]

The end of Life of Brain is pretty awesome though. 

[Zetor]

Digging this derail!

He's a nobody who will be tossed into the trashbin of history once he's dead. Just like all the other novelists who can't formulate a story from beginning to end.

You shut yo' dirty mouf.

I kinda liked the ending of Cryptonomicon, and Interface wasn't that bad, either. Otherwise... yeah. Also, [include raeg about Anathem here]

[Paelos]

Alice's Adventures in Wonderland's "It was all just a dream!" ending will be knocking it out of the collective consciousness any day now, then.

EDIT: Also, everything Monty Python ever did except Life of Brian.

Was it all just a dream? Whose dream? When compared to Through the looking glass, what philosophical questions of dreams and life are answered?

Your point was to be snarky, but that story was formulated with a defined ending point that begged a question. He wasn't just trying to find a way out of a bad tale.

[Ingmar]

No, I'm pretty sure he just made it up as he went along and got to the end and thought 'well time to end this so I can see if it gets me any 13 year old tail.'

[Paelos]

I don't even know why I respond to you some days.

[Ingmar]

We can talk about the terrible, terrible end of Monty Python and the Holy Grail and how people still love it anyway instead if you want.

[Paelos]

No, you go away trolling evil bird! 

[Sjofn]

While I uh ... thing the pedophile Lewis Carroll thing is ... up for debate, let's say, he did just make the damn thing up as he went along. It was originally just him bullshitting to some kids, they thought it was awesome, so he wrote it down. One of his grown-up friends also thought it was pretty cool, so they published it. He did not sit down, looking serious, and think to himself, "Ah, yes. I shall end this with a 'she was just dreaming,' and instead of it being a completely random, screeching halt of an ending, it'll ... you know. Be totally deep."

All the "lol math" shit he probably thought about, though.

[Ratman_tf]

Maybe Bioware could salvage ME3's ending by claiming to make a comedy all along?

[Paelos]

Even if it is the case, the "it was all just a dream" ending is an exception rather than a rule of great stories throughout time. Pilgrim's Progress is another example (some would debate if it's great or not, I personally hate the allegory).

To Kill a Mockingbird, 1984, A Brave New World, Gulliver's Travels, The Great Gatsby, The Grapes of Wrath, Lord of the Flies. Those are the kinds of stories, even with some fantastic elements to them, that stand the test of time due to their themes, structure, and development of characters.

[Job601]

Even if it is the case, the "it was all just a dream" ending is an exception rather than a rule of great stories throughout time. Pilgrim's Progress is another example (some would debate if it's great or not, I personally hate the allegory).

To Kill a Mockingbird, 1984, A Brave New World, Gulliver's Travels, The Great Gatsby, The Grapes of Wrath, Lord of the Flies. Those are the kinds of stories, even with some fantastic elements to them, that stand the test of time due to their themes, structure, and development of characters.

Gulliver's Travels has little connection between its four books and a problematic ending that is in some ways difficult to reconcile with what  comes before it.  Don Quixote is another great novel with a problematic ending -- actually satires in general have difficult with endings because the structure of the narrative is often at cross purposes with the satirical poiint.  I'm just nitpicking, I agree with your overall point.  Jane Austen's another author who has great endings in all her books.

[Ingmar]

I would actually rate Sense and Sensibility's ending as pretty disappointing, myself.

[Sjofn]

God, I forgot about the end to Don Quixote, it really is bad. But that one I am pretty sure was intentionally shit, because he was tired of people stealing his damn idea and making cheap knockoff Don Quixote stories.

I never actually read the Tale of Genji in its entirety but I bet you a dollar that ending sucked too.

[Ingmar]

That one gets a pass since she was inventing the novel at the same time.

[Paelos]

Gulliver's Travels has little connection between its four books and a problematic ending that is in some ways difficult to reconcile with what  comes before it.  Don Quixote is another great novel with a problematic ending -- actually satires in general have difficult with endings because the structure of the narrative is often at cross purposes with the satirical poiint.  I'm just nitpicking, I agree with your overall point.  Jane Austen's another author who has great endings in all her books.

Satire and Comedy do have some problems with endings, but the contract between the author and the reader is one of making a point or making them laugh. It's different than an epic, mystery or a drama, where the implied contract is one of resolution of conflict. Lord of the Rings would have been incredibly disappointing if the question of the Ring was simply left up in the air, as an example.

[Sjofn]

That one gets a pass since she was inventing the novel at the same time.

No, Paelos clearly stated history discards all novelists that write shitty endings. No mercy!

[koro]

A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court. One of my favorite Twain novels, and arguably has an "it was all a dream" ending.

Clearly Samuel Clemens is some literary reprobate on the same level with dime-store bodice-ripper authors.

[caladein]

I'm still slightly confused as to why we're comparing a selection of literary classics to two early examples from the handful of TV serial dramas and depending on how you want to slice up RPGs, an early example of whatever ME3 is.

At first I thought it was just an instance of survivorship bias, but enough of you are running with it that I think I'm missing something.

[Sjofn]

Mostly because Paelos did that thing Paelos does, where he states something as God's Own Truth, No Exceptions, and it's fun to poke the monkey with the "but what about this example?" stick.

[caladein]

Okay, carry on.

[Mazakiel]

If how Mass Effect survives history has to be compared to prior works, I'd expect it ends up being like the Godfather movies.  The first two are considered classics in their genre and medium, with the third one being considered to have it's strengths, but be nowhere near as good as the prior two. 

[Paelos]

Mostly because Paelos did that thing Paelos does, where he states something as God's Own Truth, No Exceptions, and it's fun to poke the monkey with the "but what about this example?" stick.

I don't mind being poked. I often fire shots across the bow to learn things I may not know or provoke conversation, and typically the best way to do that is to speak in absolutes.

Ingmar seems to follow me around at times, so I do sometimes get tired of him always being the next in line, but I can't be choosy!

[Ingmar]

I'm not doing it on purpose, I promise. We just apparently have similar interests and completely opposite opinions.   

[Paelos]

Not a surprise, really. We're gamers on the same forum who live in exactly opposite American cities.

[pxib]

You know, if I drag this back to topic, most of the great books/bad endings we're mentioning aren't bad so much as they're absent. Stephenson's endings, to pick on my own example, aren't so much endings as stoppings. He doesn't know how to deal with all his flying plot threads and provide satisfying closure, so he just stops writing. Even a "it was all a dream" ending is relatively harmless, like a shaggy dog story. At least it was an interesting dream.

What great stories don't do is tie everything up in a terrible bow that has nothing to do with the story that proceeded it.

As many people have said, if Shepherd had just sat down next to the admiral and watched the battle out the Illusive Man's Palpatine Window... if everything had been left in the air, it wouldn't have been too bad. Add a few polished vignettes of various other characters fighting gloriously and it'd be a pretty good Neal Stephenson ending. Not hugely satisfying, but not the end of the world. EA and Bioware could stuff additional closure in DLCs and people wouldn't even be that upset. Give hints that a win is possible, and if players actually do all the goofy 100% readyness crap then give them some real hope. There's nothing wrong with leaving any actual victory or defeat to their imaginations.

What you don't do is make an ending that abandons (even ruthlessly destroys) the story your readers are invested in so that you can finish a story they didn't even know you were telling. That just makes them mad.

[Sjofn]

I am pretty sure if they answered "did Shepard win?" with a shrug and the shot you're suggesting, there still would've been a shitstorm.

[Sir T]

What you don't do is make an ending that abandons (even ruthlessly destroys) the story your readers are invested in so that you can finish a story they didn't even know you were telling. That just makes them mad.

[tmp]

Maybe they will do a scooby doo ending. Shepard will pull mask off the fucking kid and reveal it was Harbinger Saren Sovereign Udina all along.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Also for no closure see: Christopher Nolan

[Ratman_tf]

Maybe they will do a scooby doo ending. Shepard will pull mask off the fucking kid and reveal it was Harbinger Saren Sovereign Udina all along.

"Let's find out who vent boy really is..."

*whips off mask*

"Sovreign!"

"I WOULD HAVE GOTTEN AWAY WITH IT TOO, IF IT WEREN'T FOR YOU MEDDLING ORGANICS! HOOOOOOOOOOOOONK!!!"

[Margalis]

Not having an ending can work, as can "it was all a dream" endings. As can lacking closure.

Jacob's Ladder works. An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge works. The ending of the Sopranos arguably worked. The ending of The Thing worked.

These devices are easy to get wrong but can be great when done right.

The ME3 ending failed from the moment they introduced the kid and made Shep act wildly out of character regarding him.

[amiable]

The persistence of the nerd rage over this is actually pretty impressive:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/116735-BioWare-Falsely-Advertised-Mass-Effect-3

[TheWalrus]

The ending of the Wheel of Time series was extremely well done I thought.

[Sjofn]

Isn't Wheel of Time still ending?

[SurfD]

Isn't Wheel of Time still ending?

Pretty sure there is still one more book to go.  RELEASE THE DAMN BOOK ALREADY!