Why some people hate/refuse Fantasy books, movies etc. ?

[Tannhauser]

My first fantasy novels were Tolkien's masterworks; so after that it was all downhill. Also enjoyed the Thomas Covenant trilogy and the Dragonlance books (yeah I said I like DL).

But now I read WW2 books and have forced myself through some Conan books (hint: the bad guy will either be an evil wizard or a man-ape).

Fantasy just doesn't do it for me anymore.  And why read fantasy when I can play Skyrim and BE the hero? 

But I love fantasy movies and I definitely see it becoming more mainstream because we've had big budget ones based on  the greatest fantasy novels of all time.

Some of you fuckers don't realize how bad we had it back in the 80's with Beastmaster, Sword and the Sorceror, etc.

[Bzalthek]

Hee!  I loved getting into such talks about D&D.  I remember when one guy who used to insist there could be no such thing as a Lawful Good Assassin.  I asked him about paladins.  I mean just because most Kobolds or Goblins or Orcs (that PCs know of) are evil doesn't mean indiscriminate slaughter upon sight is a good act.

[Fordel]

Watch the DnD Movie.

That is what most people think the fantasy genre is. They're not really wrong to think that either.



The first fantasy book I read, was Dragons of Autumn Twilight, I had no idea it was part of a series, or a interconnected world. I bought it because I was like 11 or 12 and it had a dragon on the cover. I have probably 20 odd DragonLance books now, most of them shit... but I adore the Draconian Brigade ones.

Dragonlance started a weird pattern in my book buying habits. I almost exclusively read books that are in universe now. Dragonlance, Eberron, Republic Commando, Halo, Battletech, Masseffect. Like 90% of my books fall under one of these categories. I have some LOTR books in there and my very first book, Mrs. Frisby and the Rats of NIMH.

I've been recommended plenty of books to read, but I have a hard time getting into them unless the setting/world has 'rules' I can readily reference. I don't just mean literal game rules, but like even though the stories world might not follow our natural laws, it has it's own consistency.

[Sheepherder]

You should read Memoirs From the House of the Dead.  I hear it's about Russian zombies or something.

[schild]

The only fantasy I have ever read that I would call literature (in that I would recommend it to others as a fine piece of writing, damn fine) is Glenn Cook's Black Company, and I've read a lot of fantasy.

Tolkien needed a fucking editor. Most fantasy writers need editors, Tolkien just needs to be called out. He's Neal Stephenson bad when it comes to needing an editor. Speaking of...

The only pieces of sci-fi I've read that I would call literature is Ender's Game, Cryptonomicon, and uh, uhhhhh - Nope, that's it. Those two books.

[Wasted]

Genre fiction has always carried the stigma that its not 'literature'.  Its a stupid distinction that only matters to hipsters that define themselves by how cool their half unread bookshelf looks.

[Ironwood]

Black Company just wasn't that good.

Also, Orcs is something I'm reading just now and it seems to have pretty much lifted the entire idea of Black Company and applied it to Orcs that talk like Victorian Gentlemen. It's fucking odd and not terribly pleasant.

Most Fantasy is utter shite, but occasionally the good shines through.  Abercrombie's 3 were good and Locke Lamora was well worth it.

Beyond that ?  I'm struggling.

[tgr]

Stan Nicholls' Orcs? Funny, I found it to be perfect for what I used it for, but then again that was to take my mind off the other mouthbreathers on the subway/buses/etc. I've just read a review from some guy complaining about how it was too entertaining, so by the end he'd been ready for it to be over for a long while. I found it to be just perfect.

I guess that means I should look into Black Company. vOv

[Ironwood]

It was fine for your purposes, chewing gum for the eyes, and it works for me on that level too.

But literature it ain't.  Grown up, it doesn't manage.  Interesting or novel or with anything that lifts it above the Drizzt Crowd, not so much.

The Orcs just Don't Work for me.  There are some real presentation problems.

[ajax34i]

I like certain fantasy and certain sci-fi books, not all of them.  I make fun of those who read romance novels, I feel superior to those who don't read at all (there are a lot of people like that nowadays), and I view the "it's not literature" people as elitist.

[Bzalthek]

Orcs was a fun read but it has been a while since I read it.  Speaking of Orcs, I think my favorite book with Orcs being the main characters is Grunts my Mary Gentle.  That was such a fun read that I made a WH40K army based on the idea.

[Margalis]

Those old Dragonlance novels by Hickman / Weiss (?) are written like garbage. Like some of the worst writing ever.

I remember liking them when I was in 7th grade or so, picked up one in college to see what it was like and oh god wow.

[Ironwood]

Yeah.  Exactly.  I remember defending them to someone a while back as not being that bad, then I did a re-read.  It's amazing what seems good when you're a happy child, as opposed to the utter monsters we've all become.

[schild]

Yeah.  Exactly.  I remember defending them to someone a while back as not being that bad, then I did a re-read.  It's amazing what seems good when you're a happy child, as opposed to the utter monsters we've all become.

No doubt, that's why I don't understand how any of you fuckers can even tolerate Star Wars or Lord of the Rings.

[Fordel]

Hey all my Starwars books are Trooper Centric. 

[schild]

Hey all my Starwars books are Trooper Centric. 

For the record, I was referring to the movies also.

[Tannhauser]

It's the same as your love for Magic: The Gathering.  It's a shit card game that has stayed popular due to an emotional attachment.

[Wasted]

I think we all got betrayed a bit when we where young.  I loved The Belgariad and Eddings turned out to be the most formulaic hack imaginable, I tried reading one of his other books a while ago and it was horrid trash.

[Margalis]

Not a good comparison. Star Wars is bad, sure, but those Dragonlance books are in a whole nother universe. And I'm not talking about plot or characterization, just the actual prose. It's like if you rewatched Star Wars and noticed that everything was horribly dubbed and the boom mic was in the middle of every frame.

[Rasix]

Not a good comparison. Star Wars is bad, sure, but those Dragonlance books are in a whole nother universe. And I'm not talking about plot or characterization, just the actual prose. It's like if you rewatched Star Wars and noticed that everything was horribly dubbed and the boom mic was in the middle of every frame.

I did a reread a few years ago.  It's truly beyond bad.  It's enjoyable for the nostalgia, but it's some of the worst written fiction I've ever read.   I put it down halfway through book 3 and just couldn't go back.

[pants]

I think we all got betrayed a bit when we where young.  I loved The Belgariad and Eddings turned out to be the most formulaic hack imaginable, I tried reading one of his other books a while ago and it was horrid trash.

I have very deliberately not gone back to Eddings since I read his stuff when I was 14 or so.  I like my rose coloured glasses and I intend to keep them on.

[Rendakor]

I think we all got betrayed a bit when we where young.  I loved The Belgariad and Eddings turned out to be the most formulaic hack imaginable, I tried reading one of his other books a while ago and it was horrid trash.

I have very deliberately not gone back to Eddings since I read his stuff when I was 14 or so.  I like my rose coloured glasses and I intend to keep them on.

This is why I never bothered with a Dragonlance reread. WoT still stands up pretty well though; I'm up to Book 6 so far and besides the plot starting to drag they're still decent.

I've never actually made it all the way through the LotR trilogy though; I really can't stand Tolkien's writing style.

[Fordel]

I can still re-read the Draconian Engineering Regiment books, I just did like a year ago. I just enjoy them that much.


Old books that bring Dragonlance levels of 'oh man I thought this was good once', are my Battletech novels. They just make me cringe now.


The worst things I've read recently are most of the Eberron novels. I love the setting, but holy shit are these books bad. The ones by Keith Baker are decent enough... mostly, and the ones by Don Bassingthwaite are pretty darn good imo (I would actually be interested to see what you guys thought of his books, specifically the ones dealing with the Goblinoid nation and their ancient empire). The rest of them? Pure self insertion fan fiction, with writing that made me long for the original Dragonlance trilogy. I couldn't actually finish a few of them, just went 'nope, I'm done'.





I've enjoyed all but one of the Halo novels, 'The Flood' by.. Dietz I think? That one was just kinda poopy to me. I just love the Halo Universe in general.

I also enjoyed the MassEffect novels, pretty fun and follow the game setting quite well.

The only Starwars books I've ever read are the Republic Commando series. I loved these for the same reason I love the Republic Commando game and the Draconian Engineering Regiment books. It's still totally 'in world', but it's from such a different perspective.

[Sheepherder]

WoT still stands up pretty well though; I'm up to Book 6 so far and besides the plot starting to drag they're still decent.

I've never actually made it all the way through the LotR trilogy though; I really can't stand Tolkien's writing style.

Jordan's problem is his wife edited everything he wrote, so he lacked an honest "No, this is shit, cut it in half."  Then something wonderful happened with book 11, then he died.  Sanderson isn't Jordan, but he is fucking good at what he does.

Tolkien's problem is elves, and that we're used to heroes screaming "I AM EPIC" as they surf down a mountain of orc corpses.  You sort of need to approach it like you were listening to a humble old man's war stories.

[tgr]

It's been quite a few years since I read LOTR, but the main thing I remember as being absolute shit was the Bombadil segment. The rest was a fair enough page-turner, even though Tolkien hadn't completely gotten away from his Hobbit-style writing for children.

Harry Potter, however, took that WTF part of writing to a whole new level, where she managed to keep a weirdly innocent view of the world (broomsticks, magic wands, etc), and combine it with brutal murders and graphic descriptions. And I think I was only reading the first book at that point, simply because I was curious as to what all the commotion was all about.

[Cyrrex]

People read for different reasons (duh).  For me, I like a world that is not connected with our own reality, so I like sci-fi, fantasy and the like.  But at the end of the day, I have to really connect with the characters and their relationships with each other.  Plot is somewhat secondary - I mean, they are all doing something something grand and heroic on some scale, so that's practically a given.  I also don't automatically assume stuff it shit just because I am supposed to.  I thought the Harry Potter books were extremely well written, and I think that woman deserves the billions she made off of them.  I know I am supposed to hate on them, but I cannot bring myself to do so.  LOTR trilogy is also a favorite.  Steven King's Dark Tower stuff is probably my favorite stuff of all time...to date, those are the only books that have ever made me shed a tear (on a few separate occasions).  Just loved the characters.  I am a big Star Wars nerd, and for that reason, I read most of those books.  To be fair, most of them are crap.  There are some that are actually exceptional, however.  You can't judge that whole category as a single item, because there are so many different authors and their skill levels cover the whole range.  Pratchett can be hit or miss for me, but some of his stuff is hilarious.

I happen to dislike most "literature", and I am not alone in that thinking.  I don't read to be impressed by some pretentious dick's fantastic prose.  If that's your bag, cool, but that isn't what scratches my itch.

So while I am not a prototypical nerd, my reading habits would probably indicate otherwise.  Really, my book collection is quite embarrassing.

Fake Edit:  Reading WoT series for the first time now, and I am on book 8.  I do get some people's complaints about the series (my mind sometimes wanders while I am reading, for example), I am still enjoying it.  I just like the characters.

[Simond]

I think we all got betrayed a bit when we where young.  I loved The Belgariad and Eddings turned out to be the most formulaic hack imaginable, I tried reading one of his other books a while ago and it was horrid trash.

To be fair to Eddings, his entire career plan was to deliberately write formulaic but readable genre fiction - the fantasy equivalent of airport thriller novels.

[Sheepherder]

It's been quite a few years since I read LOTR, but the main thing I remember as being absolute shit was the Bombadil segment.

He's annoying enough to be an elf.

Fake Edit:  Reading WoT series for the first time now, and I am on book 8.  I do get some people's complaints about the series (my mind sometimes wanders while I am reading, for example), I am still enjoying it.  I just like the characters.

Look, I can understand you.  Really, I do.  I was like that the first time I read through the series.  You are going to hate book 10, it will make everything else in the series worse.

[Cyrrex]

Look, I can understand you.  Really, I do.  I was like that the first time I read through the series.  You are going to hate book 10, it will make everything else in the series worse.

Hey, maybe.  But in reading through the average Amazon feedback, people seem to be bashing 10 for the same reasons they were bashing 7, 8 and 9.  Only I thought 7 was okay, and 8 is actually pretty good (2/3rds through it).  Some people get antsy about THINGS NOT GETTING RESOLVED, but I am not one of those people.  If I like the world, I like the characters and the plot is at least moving in some direction, I am generally satisfied.  I don't actually want my stories to end too quickly.  I actually hate it when my favorite stories come to an end.  I mean, why the fuck would I want them to end if I enjoy them?  I may be an outlier, I admit that.

Or maybe 10 is unequivocal shite, and I will be back here to let you know what I thought about it.

[Xuri]

That's pretty much how I approach reading books as well, Cyrrex; as long as the characters interest me, I don't want the stories to end. Maybe that's why I like both LotR and WoT in their entireties. :P

There's only one fantasy series I have ever started reading that I just couldn't finish: Malazan Book of the Fallen. I'm not sure why. Maybe it's because of the OVER 9000! main characters.

[Cyrrex]

That's pretty much how I approach reading books as well, Cyrrex; as long as the characters interest me, I don't want the stories to end. Maybe that's why I like both LotR and WoT in their entireties. :P

There's only one fantasy series I have ever started reading that I just couldn't finish: Malazan Book of the Fallen. I'm not sure why. Maybe it's because of the OVER 9000! main characters.

Haha, exactly the same here...only one I never finished.  Those books made me tired.  I started off liking them, but they lacked so much cohesion.  And then he kills off the only characters I get attached to, so I am left with no reason to continue (only to find out the next book in the series is with brand new characters in a brand new timeline...wtf?).  Also, Ericsson was too in love with his own prose.  A little to self important for me.  I can see why others will dig it, though, because some of it is great.

[tgr]

OVER 9000! main characters.

What?!

And I found GoT to be hard to keep straight for a few pages when he switched over from character to character.

[Rendakor]

I had problems with the Malazan series too; by the end of Book 1 I had finally gotten a handle on most of the characters, started to like some of them, etc. Then Book 2 starts and we jump halfway across the world to a whole new set of people. I think I made it two chapters in before getting fed up.

[Bzalthek]

I really liked Malazan, though it was kind of difficult to transition between the cast at times.  I have to say the last two books kind of let me down.  I felt it got just a bit too metaphysical and didn't portray the epicness you were building up to through the series.

[Rasix]

I had problems with the Malazan series too; by the end of Book 1 I had finally gotten a handle on most of the characters, started to like some of them, etc. Then Book 2 starts and we jump halfway across the world to a whole new set of people. I think I made it two chapters in before getting fed up.

FYI, books 1, 2 and 5 are pretty much standalone.  You can enter the series at any one of those.   Book one is really his weakest of the bunch as it's written like a tribute to all of his favorite writers.  There's also a lot of minor details in that book that end up getting retconned in later books.    I just ran out of steam with the series.  One book in particular just killed it for me with the ending. I don't think I've ever been more disgusted with a book that I actually finished.