Little Peeves

[Ingmar]

Yeah veracity seems to be the one to go for. I have it REd for guardian tank earpieces, fyi, still working on the aim tank one.

[Fordel]

If you do all the dailies, including the heroics, you'll have a fully kitted out orange suit for vanguard tanking in 5 days to a week, depending on if you use orange belt/bracers or if you use crafted stuff.


My Elara is nearly fully kitted out too now.


-edit-

You could just do the two, heroic 2's one on illum and one on belsavis, that six comms, an enhancement and a mod every day. Just do two more solo dailies for 8 comms for the armoring. That should take you 30 minutes if you have a buddy ready.

[MisterNoisy]

I was in a WZ last night and someone tried to use Orbital Strike on me....I moved...slowly...away

Heh - I've found Orbital Strike to be occasionally useful in Corellia/Voidstar as an area/cap denial tool, but that's about it.

[Khaldun]

It's ok for cap denials, and when there's a really intense scrum of people fighting below you in Huttball and they're not paying attention, it's ok. It's ridiculously slow and makes you defenseless for a long time. It's also not useful generally in PvE. It's a stupid ability generally.

[Typhon]

The DPSers (perhaps minus DPS-specced knights/warriors) in this game do have various support tools. They're just not 'hybrids' which as far as I can tell in this discussion means 'they don't have heals.'

My understanding of the definition of 'hybrid' is any combination of tank/heal/cc/support and dps.  The Thane in DAOC was referred to as a hybrid (tank, ranged and melee dps).  The Shadowknight (tank + dps) and Ranger (dps + heal) in EQ were hybrids.

I'd argue that a dps-spec'd Juggernaut is (supposed) to be a hybrid (of the 'offtank' flavor, tank + dps).  Seems like the SWTOR dev's definition agrees with that, as they specifically mention that the dps-spec'd Jugg should do as much damage as a Marauder (unless I read those blog posts/faqs wrong).  I like that thinking.

What I don't like is that the Marauder, as built, only comes with a half a kit.  If they want a dps + dps class, then the class needs two equally viable ways of dealing damage (range + melee, aoe melee + single target melee) or it ends up having being a non-hybrid in a game of hybrids.  That the Marauder also struggles to do as much damage (kill mobs as quickly and painlessly) as the dps-spec'd Jugg (same level - 36) is annoying, but fixable.

I want them to address this because I much prefer playing the Marauder from a theme perspective.  I also like that it's a bit more challenging.  Unfortunately from a 'git it done' perspective, I had to level up a dps-Juggernaut to keep myself from hating the game.  I play the Marauder when I want hard-mode.

[Nebu]

When you get to 50 you'll find that a Marauder >>> Jugg as a dps class.  Not only in terms of damage output, but also in terms of fun.  In pvp, Mar/Sent is one of the few classes that I fear for pure damage generation. 

[eldaec]

The swtor people changed their mind half way through development, and decided no hybrids, no differences between mirror classes, and little to no opportunity from speccing across multiple trees.

Before that, yes DPS juggs were hybrids

[Ingmar]

The Sentinel/Marauder do have group-useful utility stuff, though:

- group-wide damage buff cooldown
- droid CC
- pacify debuff cooldown
- group-wide movement speed/ranged defense buff
- PBAE mez (relatively short duration/long cooldown)
- group-wide damage/healing buff

Now maybe your argument is just that there isn't enough of it, but I don't think from a design perspective it is at all clear that they just said 'you are nothing but damage, and that will be good enough.'

[Nebu]

Perhaps they also implemented things this way so that you didn't get badgered like you would in Rift.

Them: "You're a mage, you can heal"

Me: "I'm dps spec and I don't want to heal"

Them: "Go respec and heal for us"

Me: "I don't want to, I enjoy dps"

Them: "L2P"

[Ingmar]

There is absolutely value in that too, yeah.

[Typhon]

When you get to 50 you'll find that a Marauder >>> Jugg as a dps class.  Not only in terms of damage output, but also in terms of fun.  In pvp, Mar/Sent is one of the few classes that I fear for pure damage generation. 

Thanks Nebu, didn't know that the Mar got better.

Ingmar,

I agree those abilities put the Mar in hybrid territory.  I'm mostly focused on the way the class is described for incoming players because I think this is the way that the devs think about the class.  Marauder is a dps class, that is its in-game definition.  Having played a feral druid from launch in WoW, I'm sensitive on how the dev's think of the classes. (why on earth would you take a class concept as cool as shape-shifting and then shoehorn it into a role that specifically demands no shape-shifting.  That is the definition of fucked up)

Right now I'm struggling justifying to myself playing the Maruader when the Jugg brings at complimentary set of group-useful capabilities, does similar dps, and has heavy armor and the capability to switch to a tanking stance.  After WoW I take devs at "simplest terms" face value.  The simplest terms are those that are given to you when you make you advanced spec choice.  Jugg - tank/dps.  Marauder - dps.

SWTOR devs are saying that the Marauder is a dps-only spec = limited chance they'll improve the Marauders non-dps capabilities (I want this - the spec needs more of something else.  Mobility?  I don't know, but it needs something to compensate for the survivability the Jugg has.  NOT more damage, assuming the damage is similar to the damage of a dps-Jugg)

SWTOR devs are saying that dps-spec'd classes with non-dps specs (I'm calling that a hybrid, I guess) should do as much damage as dps-only classes = limited chance that the devs should enhance the dps-only specs damage capabilities (I don't want this)

[ajax34i]

Here's a question:  Does the Marauder, any spec, have the same DPS as the Juggernaut DPS spec?  How about as the Juggernaut tank spec?  Because I'm pretty sure it's been said several times that Juggernaut tank spec just flails about with a lightstick and actually needs the DPS companion to appy DPS in order to finish off the NPCs slower than any of the other classes.

It seems that what they're aiming for is:  DPS class should have 3 specs that deliver good DPS (and often, the choices are:  you can do AoEs better than anyone, or your base damage is equal but you talent up those crits and you're a deity, and some sort of PVP utility tree), whereas the Tank or Healer have 1 spec for their job, 1 spec for DPS (often based on stacking dots for non-critted steady damage), and some sort of PVP tree where they're still vulnerable to interrupts or permastuns (to offset their "OP" heals or defenses).

SWTOR class balance is crap, also, so we can't even tell what Bioware is aiming for.

[Sky]

  If they want a dps + dps class, then the class needs two equally viable ways of dealing damage (range + melee, aoe melee + single target melee)

While I don't really agree with most of the 'hybrid' stuff being discussed; I definitely agree with this.

I try to forget Rift's soul/role system exists because I love the rest of TOR so much more.

[Threash]

Having dps only classes was a mistake, either their dps is the same making the higher survivability of the tank/heal hybrids superior or their damage is higher and the dps spec for the tank/healers becomes pointless.

[kildorn]

As far as I can see, they hid all the healing deep in the trees, so a DPS specced hybrid isn't healing much of shit.

[Sky]

Having dps only classes was a mistake, either their dps is the same making the higher survivability of the tank/heal hybrids superior or their damage is higher and the dps spec for the tank/healers becomes pointless.

Higher survivability? Most of the mitigation of a tank spec is from form/canister/etc. You're not going to dps in ion cans with a tank spec as a BH. If you gear for defense/absorb/shield, you're also giving up a lot of dps.

The mistake was what Typhon said, not having more distinct trees (ae/dd/dot trees) for different styles of dps. If you don't like dps-only limiting your options, don't play a dps-only spec.

[amiable]

I would like to repost a post made by my wife on our friends and family guild forums, because you all may find it amusing  (she is left handed and commits the sin of using her mouse in her dominant hand, spoilered due to NSFW language):  

[Mazakiel]

Orange bracers/belts and so forth are too rare.  They need to add more oranges as recipes for the crafters so people can fill out sets better.  And they need to make a pass and add more in general.  I've got an orange chest piece I really like on my BH, but I've not seen a single other piece to match it since the game went live, and from looking at torhead, it looks like they didn't put any orange versions of the set in at all beyond the chestpiece. 

[01101010]

Orange bracers/belts and so forth are too rare.  They need to add more oranges as recipes for the crafters so people can fill out sets better.  And they need to make a pass and add more in general.  I've got an orange chest piece I really like on my BH, but I've not seen a single other piece to match it since the game went live, and from looking at torhead, it looks like they didn't put any orange versions of the set in at all beyond the chestpiece. 

Probably left over item from the no clownsuit button days.

[Lantyssa]

The only orange belt I had was a level 7 one I had to delete from my Sniper when I changed her to an Operative.  I almost didn't do it just because of that.

[tmp]

There's orange belts sold by fleet commendation vendor now. They're light armour, but  belts don't have that much armour to begin with so that's a minor drawback.

[eldaec]

Voss.

What is wrong with the idiots who designed this planet? Literally every quest involves a 5-10 minute run before you can do anything, and my fricking class quest with umpteen elites makes me run back for 5 minutes every time I die (no med probe) *and* respawns everything.

[Furiously]

My peeve.  No one runs the high level dungeons without a guild group.

[Ingmar]

We aren't even running them with a guild group (yet). 

[Furiously]

BT isn't THAT hard.

[Fordel]

We aren't even running them with a guild group (yet). 

I blame the lack of smugglers I was promised.

[Sjofn]

Ingmar is doing his best! Vido is level 31 or something now!

[Ingmar]

I could instead work on getting Kayce a dps suit so we aren't ALL tanks, but I'm enjoying the smuggler.

[kildorn]

Smugglers are awesome, but my healer pet totally needs gear before I try using this dps spec to quest much more. Ow.

[Sky]

Sky is a Shadow tank 

Wei is a dps Guardian, but at the rate we level on nerd night, fuggedaboutit for any hard mode stuff for a few months at least.

[MisterNoisy]

Desubbed.  Somewhere between the constant hassle of all of the little peeves discussed in this thread and the bigger peeves of post-50 PvP balance/grind, I figured there are more deserving recipients of my entertainment dollars.  :)

[Crumbs]

Hey has anyone talked yet about HOW SHITTY PVP IS for the love of all that is holy

[Rasix]

There might be a pvp thread somewhere in here.   

[Simond]

My peeve.  No one runs the high level dungeons without a guild group.

You could just use the dungeon find....oh.

[Paelos]

If you aren't doing 4 man dugeons in a guild group you're honestly missing out on a lot of what makes the game fun, imo.