Predictions: 1m+ players 3 days out; how about in January 2013?

[Zetor]

Heck, that entire companion thing everyone's digging in SWTOR (and later on possibly LOTRO with their skirmish soldiers)? GW did it in 2006, and IMO did it better.

First...okay, fine.  Better?  Haha.  GW's "companions" were just bots that filled out your group.

I don't mean henchies (who indeed sucked, Alesia was our guild mascot), I mean heroes introduced with the Nightfall expansion in 2006. They were actually better than players when it came to interrupting things, were very good healers, and could do pretty good damage if you set them up with the right skills. You could also micromanage their skills if you wanted to... and since you had 3 heroes (last year they patched in the ability to have 7, removing the need for henchmen entirely) it could be like playing a mini-RTS if you really wanted to min-max things (it wasn't needed though).

[Cyrrex]

And swtor companions are just wow pets with equipment slots.

Yes, and both SWTOR and Sims 3 require me to move my mouse around and hit buttons so are therefore the same.

Go troll someone else, fuckstain.

Heck, that entire companion thing everyone's digging in SWTOR (and later on possibly LOTRO with their skirmish soldiers)? GW did it in 2006, and IMO did it better.

First...okay, fine.  Better?  Haha.  GW's "companions" were just bots that filled out your group.

I don't mean henchies (who indeed sucked, Alesia was our guild mascot), I mean heroes introduced with the Nightfall expansion in 2006. They were actually better than players when it came to interrupting things, were very good healers, and could do pretty good damage if you set them up with the right skills. You could also micromanage their skills if you wanted to... and since you had 3 heroes (last year they patched in the ability to have 7, removing the need for henchmen entirely) it could be like playing a mini-RTS if you really wanted to min-max things (it wasn't needed though).

Can't say I know anything about how that actually played out, as I never played that expansion...but still sounds like bots to me, just better implemented bots.

SWTOR companions have soul.  I care what they think.  Has any other MMO done anything like that?

[Kageru]

No, because it's generally the preserve of single player RPG's. It's not common in MMO's because it doesn't add anything to the multiplayer environment (indeed it takes away by replacing other gamers with bots if they are player equivalent in power), it doesn't allow a lot of flexibility in giving them characters because they are constrained by multiplayer game balance (as in SWTOR where you can't kill or lose a companion) and once you shift from structured content to more free-form content (like levelling to raids) their characterisation either ends or becomes annoying. Characterisation is also constraining as in the people in SWTOR who wish they could have more freedom in selecting and configuring their companions. Also people who don't like pet classes are out of luck as all the content will be balanced on the assumption you have a geared pet.

I think most MMO fans hope that GW2 will bring some new innovations in gameplay mechanics. The Genre could certainly do with them because SWTOR provided the worlds most sexy, big budget leveling experience which frankly wasn't the problem the MMO genre had.

[Ingmar]

GW is getting rid of heroes, though, which for me is a tremendous step backwards. For me personally it is close to a deal-breaker.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Are you seriously defending swtor companions as some great innovations? Heck they are nice but not everything critical of this game is a goddamned troll.

They are glorified pets, they have a limited set of moves and their AI is essentially a non existent, you can gear them up but like all gear in swtor there is only one right way for whatever class they are.  Yes they have some personality, they also have storylines that lead nowhere, or barely involve you, you can also romance them for some fade to black that doesn't actually do anything.  I'll grant they have character and can be fun to interact with but mechanically they are very one dimensional.

Edit: and as said above if you don't like playing a pet class? Too fucking bad, cause the whole solo game is balanced around having your pet out.

[Cyrrex]

Are you seriously defending swtor companions as some great innovations? Heck they are nice but not everything critical of this game is a goddamned troll.

They are glorified pets, they have a limited set of moves and their AI is essentially a non existent, you can gear them up but like all gear in swtor there is only one right way for whatever class they are.  Yes they have some personality, they also have storylines that lead nowhere, or barely involve you, you can also romance them for some fade to black that doesn't actually do anything.  I'll grant they have character and can be fun to interact with but mechanically they are very one dimensional.

Edit: and as said above if you don't like playing a pet class? Too fucking bad, cause the whole solo game is balanced around having your pet out.

Um, yeah.  If a person is playing SWTOR and doesn't want their "glorified pets" out and tagging along, if that person's only desire in the world is to min/max their bloody pet, then that person is playing the wrong game.  And retarded.  Or they are like you and trolling a thread for a game they don't even play (which may or may not preclude retardation).

[Ingmar]

Heroes were my favorite thing about Guild Wars. Without them I'd not have played it NEARLY as much. I think getting rid of them is a shame. They're my favorite thing about SWTOR and they have a lot of potential to do interesting stuff with them going forward.

I don't know that I called it a great innovation or accuse anyone of trolling, and I was pretty clear about saying "FOR ME" there.

EDIT: I totally missed Cyrrex's line about trolling, nvm.

EDIT: Also Cyrrex, the GW heroes did have a certain amount of personality, at least a couple of them. OK, well, really just Koss. But Koss was pretty awesome.

[Sjofn]

Man, what? GW had some of the most creative monster visual design of any game I've ever played, it is pretty emphatically NOT the same generic stuff repeated over again. And they actually did a pretty damn awesome fantasy Asia and fantasy Africa, which are things that most other companies haven't even touched.

I'm still sad they didn't get around to doing Fantasy India, that would've been rad.

[Fordel]

The only people that use their companions in the traditional pet-class sense, are the heal specs. Most of their output is tied up in their pet.

[Zetor]

Heck, that entire companion thing everyone's digging in SWTOR (and later on possibly LOTRO with their skirmish soldiers)? GW did it in 2006, and IMO did it better.

First...okay, fine.  Better?  Haha.  GW's "companions" were just bots that filled out your group.

I don't mean henchies (who indeed sucked, Alesia was our guild mascot), I mean heroes introduced with the Nightfall expansion in 2006. They were actually better than players when it came to interrupting things, were very good healers, and could do pretty good damage if you set them up with the right skills. You could also micromanage their skills if you wanted to... and since you had 3 heroes (last year they patched in the ability to have 7, removing the need for henchmen entirely) it could be like playing a mini-RTS if you really wanted to min-max things (it wasn't needed though).

Can't say I know anything about how that actually played out, as I never played that expansion...but still sounds like bots to me, just better implemented bots.

SWTOR companions have soul.  I care what they think.  Has any other MMO done anything like that?

Ingmar beat me to it, but yeah. Some of the original Nightfall GW heroes (esp. the first three - Koss, Tahlkora, Dunkoro) actually had pretty involved storylines and a few 'personal quests', though that was only really in the first 1/3 of Nightfall content. The other heroes typically only had a questline to unlock them (with some interaction before that so you knew what they were about) and then they turned into silent party members after joining. All of them had plenty of in-combat quips and comments (not voice).

SWTOR companions are way better story-wise, no denying that. That said, I was mostly speaking from a gameplay POV where GW heroes were way better than SWTOR's companions...

[Cyrrex]

Alright, that's cool.  Depends on what you want out of them, I guess.

[Simond]

And swtor companions are just Star Trek Online officers

There we go. A hybrid of the bridge officers for combat and the duty officers for the AFK mission stuff.

[trias_e]

Is there any chance at all the the people who are miserable will finally quit the game and go away?

All the people might be a bit much to hope for.  I can speak for myself and say that yes, I finally (basically) quit the game and went away (well, starting with this post at least).

I've canceled, but I'm at 48 so I hopefully can force myself to log in long enough to finish my class story before the sub runs out.  I don't know if I can manage it though.  I really don't like the game at this point, but I won't be too harsh on SWTOR specifically.  It's just the standardized WoW-model theme-park MMORPG that saps my will to play over time and leaves me disliking the game.  I can handle it if it has enough organic worldy and social elements, but this definitely isn't the case in SWTOR.  No need to shit on anyone else's parade about it though.

I very much doubt the game will do amazingly long-term, but I do think it will have the benefit of getting people to actually come back to play new content due to storyline aspects.  Other MMORPGs don't have this and thus just kind of crater once people leave (and never come back).  So I expect more cyclical sub behavior in SWTOR than is usual for MMOs.  Hard to say what numbers they will actually get without knowing how many people are still subbed after the first month.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Are you seriously defending swtor companions as some great innovations? Heck they are nice but not everything critical of this game is a goddamned troll.

They are glorified pets, they have a limited set of moves and their AI is essentially a non existent, you can gear them up but like all gear in swtor there is only one right way for whatever class they are.  Yes they have some personality, they also have storylines that lead nowhere, or barely involve you, you can also romance them for some fade to black that doesn't actually do anything.  I'll grant they have character and can be fun to interact with but mechanically they are very one dimensional.

Edit: and as said above if you don't like playing a pet class? Too fucking bad, cause the whole solo game is balanced around having your pet out.

Um, yeah.  If a person is playing SWTOR and doesn't want their "glorified pets" out and tagging along, if that person's only desire in the world is to min/max their bloody pet, then that person is playing the wrong game.  And retarded.  Or they are like you and trolling a thread for a game they don't even play (which may or may not preclude retardation).

I do play swtor, and yes surprise surprise some people like playing their character and not having to manage a glorified pet all the time, or even being able to solo without having a tank/healer/dps pet tagging along.

Having a pet required takes away from the personal power of your character.  When you think of pet classes you think of necromancers/hunters/summoners and warlocks.  You think of people whose power is tied directly to their thematic counterpart.  So that your own power is not diminished by that of your cohort because they are an extension of your character.  In swtor you are a fucking scrub,  your companions are completely necessary for doing even solo content. It leads to your character feeling less powerful and less important in the world.

RE:pets.  Yes they are and stop being such a brainless star-eyed fanboy because how awesome your romance with a digital space-nymph is.  This wouldn't be such a problem except for the fact they aren't even SMART pets, they have a simplified set of attacks which you cannot customize, they have no talents trees and they have a grand total of TWO AI commands.  ATTACK and PASSIVE, that's it.  That will hit whatever power is on their hotbar and available, some you can toggle off and some will toggle back on all on their own!(fixed? not sure) 

Companions were a wasted opportunity, one step in the right direction and two backwards.

[Nebu]

While it's nice to have a companion for all occasions, I do agree that I feel worthless in the world without one.  As a dps class, it's almost impossible to complete dailies without a companion.  I'm not really sure I like this design decision.  I thought that I was the hero.  It turns out that I can barely handle a small group without my companion along.  Not very heroic...

[DraconianOne]

Having a pet required takes away from the personal power of your character.  When you think of pet classes you think of necromancers/hunters/summoners and warlocks.  You think of people whose power is tied directly to their thematic counterpart. 

Ever tried soloing content in Mass Effect? Or any other Bioware game? It's pretty much next to impossible (for me anyway) - but you get companions to help you. At no point did I ever think feel Shepherd was a "scrub" just because I had to take a couple of people down to a planet with me to do the missions.

I played Warlock for years and while mechanically having a companion is pretty much the same, the fact that I can have conversations and get approval/shame feedback from them makes it feel entirely different. Mechanics be damned. In fact, having the companions makes me feel not just like a hero but also a leader. (Except for my Smuggler - but hey, having a Wookiee who will send you flying across the room if you call him a pet is pretty good too!)

 

[Lantyssa]

Can't say I know anything about how that actually played out, as I never played that expansion...but still sounds like bots to me, just better implemented bots.

SWTOR companions have soul.  I care what they think.  Has any other MMO done anything like that?

Heroes all have stories, huge flexibility in class and skill selection, and can be outfitted with any gear you want.  Their look is pre-determined, but that's a stylistic choice.  And you can bring as many or as few as you want, up to a full party.

While I like some of SWTOR's companions, I think GW's implementation is far superior.

[01101010]

While it's nice to have a companion for all occasions, I do agree that I feel worthless in the world without one.  As a dps class, it's almost impossible to complete dailies without a companion.  I'm not really sure I like this design decision.  I thought that I was the hero.  It turns out that I can barely handle a small group without my companion along.  Not very heroic...

Frodo wouldn't have gotten far without Sam... 

[Rendakor]

Having a pet required takes away from the personal power of your character.  When you think of pet classes you think of necromancers/hunters/summoners and warlocks.  You think of people whose power is tied directly to their thematic counterpart.  So that your own power is not diminished by that of your cohort because they are an extension of your character.  In swtor you are a fucking scrub,  your companions are completely necessary for doing even solo content. It leads to your character feeling less powerful and less important in the world.

This is just setting you up for the MMO endgame by convincing you early on that you can't do anything without the help of someone or something else.

[Nebu]

Frodo wouldn't have gotten far without Sam... 

Frodo wasn't the hero in the end... in my opinion.   

[Threash]

He does have a point though, a lot of the bounty hunter quests involved honorable combat between an enemy and me being helped by my companion.  That made no sense whatsoever and made me look like a bitch.

[Mazakiel]

There were a few like that on the Inquisitor as well.  "I'm going to kick your ass....and by 'I', I mean Khem.  Khem, eat him."  Granted, that sorta fits the character, but still.  For the story line quests at least I'd have liked some of the more pivotal fights/duels to balanced for just you, and have the companion fighting something else or out of the way. 

[Lantyssa]

The Inquisitor actually does have one of those, so it's entirely possible.

[Shatter]

All they had to do was throw in 1 MOB for each of those fights with 1HP and its even odds, hell throw 10 mobs in with 1 HP and you would walk away feeling like a GOD. 

[Threash]

The bounty hunter even has one where the enemy chooses a "second" to assist him in battle so it's even with me and my companion, but that is the only time it is ever acknowledged at all.  

[Khaldun]

I'm thinking this is only a lore or story issue for Jedi or for some private RP-ish vision you have of your character. Smugglers, troopers, Sith, BHs, agents: why would any of them have a sense of scruples that would prevent them from having a comrade help out in a life-and-death struggle?

Otherwise, the whole are they pets or companions discussion is basically just ludology v. narratology round 10,000. If you want to get reductive and insist that content never matters, only mechanics, you can, but I think that's a horribly parsimonous way to think about games (or anything) and typically leaves a person saying, "Well, Skyrim is no different than Might and Magic VI, really, same mechanics" or some such.

[eldaec]

Frodo wouldn't have gotten far without Sam... 

Frodo wasn't the hero in the end ... in my opinion.   

Well Sam wouldn't have gotten far without Frodo... 

[Bunk]

The Inquisitor actually does have one of those, so it's entirely possible.

So does the Sith Warrior. Was a pain, considering I'm spec'd purely tank and rely on my companion to kill things for the most part. Aparently Jedi Masters can make people fall asleep with a wave when its convenient.

[Ratman_tf]

I'm thinking this is only a lore or story issue for Jedi or for some private RP-ish vision you have of your character. Smugglers, troopers, Sith, BHs, agents: why would any of them have a sense of scruples that would prevent them from having a comrade help out in a life-and-death struggle?

Maybe not scruples, but defeating your enemy without help gives you bragging rights, and a sense that you weren't dependent on some schmuck to pump you full of heals through the fight. As tactically smart as that may be.

Especially when facing off against a storyline Jedi. "I'll crush you with my bare hands!"

[Shatter]

Or you could just put the companion away for real badassery

[Threash]

I'm thinking this is only a lore or story issue for Jedi or for some private RP-ish vision you have of your character. Smugglers, troopers, Sith, BHs, agents: why would any of them have a sense of scruples that would prevent them from having a comrade help out in a life-and-death struggle?

 

because it is presented as such? several times, at least four or five that i can remember offhand, in my BH storyline i was offered the chance to settle things in some manner of one on one honorable combat .  Usually there is also a darkside "fuck you, lets just fight it out right now" option also that involves fighting them AND their henchmen.

[Ratman_tf]

I'm thinking this is only a lore or story issue for Jedi or for some private RP-ish vision you have of your character. Smugglers, troopers, Sith, BHs, agents: why would any of them have a sense of scruples that would prevent them from having a comrade help out in a life-and-death struggle?

 

because it is presented as such? several times, at least four or five that i can remember offhand, in my BH storyline i was offered the chance to settle things in some manner of one on one honorable combat .  Usually there is also a darkside "fuck you, lets just fight it out right now" option also that involves fighting them AND their henchmen.

Heh. I take those kinds of options on my Sith Warrior all the time. I can't help it.

"Enough talk, YAAAAAARRRR!"

[Lakov_Sanite]

Or you could just put the companion away for real badassery

My point is you really can't. The whole game is balanced around having a pet and yes I know people are gonna say "well that's how this game is, take it or leave it" but there's a reason that every other mmo has pet classes and non pet classes, because it's not a playstyle that everyone enjoys.

[tmp]

While it's nice to have a companion for all occasions, I do agree that I feel worthless in the world without one.

Generally i find the character on their own capable of handling either single silver guy (who is on par power-wise with player character it seems) or 2-3 regular mobs, but because of this expectation you'll be playing with the companion out the content is broken either into groups of 4 normals, or a silver with some regular adds, or a single gold foozle. It's that last option that gets in the way of 'feeling heroic' for me usually, since it means a single enemy comfortably hold their own against both you and the sidekick. The other cases have you and the sidekick still fight mostly outnumbered, so these maintain the illusion of being better.

[eldaec]

This thread.