Wait, you want me to HIT them with my gun? [Scoundrel/Operative thread]

[kildorn]

So to start with, I'm going to talk mostly about healing and the base mechanics.

The least documented/explained mechanic last time I played was Upper Hand/Tactical Advantage. Basically, you use your melee attack of doom to proc this little buff, and you spend it on other things that consume it. You can only have 2, and they only last about 10 seconds. So it's very much a gain/spend quickly mechanic. As a sawbones/healer spec you gain this via your slow casting normal heal after spending your first talents.

Mostly, the class tempts you with chaining low cooldown skills and a high energy bar. DO NOT BE TEMPTED. The class is actually about a very measured approach with a lot of filler to pace your spending. For dps specs this is mostly special attack/auto attack, repeat. For healers, it's Big Heal/Diagnostic Scan when not big healing. About halfway down the tree Diagnostic scan gets a hilarious crit rate buff and restores energy when it crits. It's a rest period filler. Anything you can do to increase your energy regen lets you do more without dipping below 60% energy. If you go below 60%, drop cooldowns to get above that, because your regen TANKS.

I highly recommend noticing that Pugnacity (costs an upper hand, but provides energy regen for 30s) has a 20s cooldown, so you can have this up permanently and should.

Also: smuggler stun, best stun.

[ajax34i]

So here's a question:  For the abilities that "require and consume Upper Hand", say you've accumulated 2, does the ability use 2 or does it just use 1, leaving you with 1 still available?

[kildorn]

So here's a question:  For the abilities that "require and consume Upper Hand", say you've accumulated 2, does the ability use 2 or does it just use 1, leaving you with 1 still available?

Uses 1. What I have seen is that the 10s stack expiration is.. less than forgiving. If you don't burn them as you get them, the entire stack tends to go poof.

[DraconianOne]

If Ingmar's correct in the other thread that it's like LOTRO's Champion Fervour then I understand. Thank the maker for always playing DPS classes up until now!

Talent question: in the Sawbones tier 1 is a Cunning boost talent. Is it worth putting all 3 points to get a 9% bonus in it or just the 1 and putting 2 points Anatomy Lessons (the energy reduction for Vital shot, dirty kick etc)?

[kildorn]

I can't see why you'd care about the energy reductions if you were going pure healer (they're pretty much all damage skills, iirc), but for leveling it might be fine. That talent struck me as the "dps spec dipping over here" talent for the tier.

[Fordel]

Depends on the ability I think, being able to drop your DoT in a fight without really spoiling your heal/regen balance is keen.

[luckton]

Playing this from the Operative side.  Having been the healer for every group I've been in thus far, and only being 21, my thoughts:

- Diagnostic scan is a stupid skill unless you talent it.  Without those mid-medical talents, I'm better off just giving someone a Med pack than casting that POS skill.

- The stim-pack is a must have buff up at all times. 

- Don't bother with cover when healing.  Every time I do, I can't cast shit.  I'm hoping this is just a bug, but if not, why not roll a BH instead?  They get heavy armor and are supposed to be standing out in the open

- While a non-medical operative will get some baseline heals, do not assume that they're gonna save you, let alone carry a group in a flashpoint.

[caladein]

Diagnostic Scan is just your auto-attack heal until you pick up Patient Studies.  On the talent side, you can do a lot with just the 2 points in Incisive Action.  The other points up until you have Patient Studies/Medical Engineering aren't fantastic, although if you can get good at rolling Kolto Probe it's pretty nice.

I can heal from Cover just fine, but unless I have aggro from ranged mobs and can find natural cover, there's no point to it.  I may as well be in melee doing some damage and keeping up TAs if there's no big need for healing.

[kildorn]

So I'm a little fuzzy on Diagnostic scan. I guess it's for healing when completely empty or needing to get out of the hole energy wise. But once you pick up Emergency Medkit/Surgical Probe it seems completely pointless.

You basically wind up rolling around in Upper Hand charges when healing due to HoTs frequently granting them and your main cast heal always granting them. So you can happily burn them away on free instant heals, or use Underworld Medicine + Medkit as a giant heal combo. Basically, my energy management problems went poof, and Kolto pack left my bars for good. I'm suspecting now that Kolto Pack is really an oh shit ability for every other spec scoundrel. It's fast and inefficient, but not that much faster than a talented Underworld Medicine.

[DraconianOne]

Some debate in my guild as to the mechanics of Scoudrel. Couple of guys have rerolled to Gunslinger because they don't want to play rogue/burglar like they have been doing but it seems to me that for the most part, stealth isn't that necessary. Only one ability needs stealth (Shoot First/Hidden Strike) and you don't get that until level 36 so presumably, up until that point, stealth isn't really required if you're grouping.

Or have I totally missed the point as usual? 

[kildorn]

Stealth is a cute perk, from a pve standpoint. It's abusive as shit to skip time consuming content (kill 15 fozzles for the bonus! Now stealth past the next 48 of them between you and the objective.) It's completely pointless to the actual dps/healing gameplay. It's really awesome in pvp to avoid/start fights per every stealth game.

SpaceVanish is also crazy useful. But from a sheer "how does this play" standpoint, you have one positional attack, everything else doesn't matter. You have one buff to keep up, with a 45s duration/35s cooldown that must always be up.

[DraconianOne]

SpaceVanish is also crazy useful. But from a sheer "how does this play" standpoint, you have one positional attack, everything else doesn't matter. You have one buff to keep up, with a 45s duration/35s cooldown that must always be up.

That there is definitely a useful bit of information that I failed to utilise last night.

[kildorn]

Pugnacity/WhateverIAsHave is a 20% increase to your energy regen, which is huge. It should basically be up all day long, every day. I find it's the difference between my opening cycle taking me to half energy and into the regen bad touch zone, and being completely unable to spend energy fast enough. Though admittedly, I pretend Quick Shot has a cooldown, because spamming that is BAD.

My fakedps rotation as a medic is keep my DoT up. Pistol Whip, Shotgun, Quick Shot, autoattack once or twice, repeat when pistol whip is back up.

[01101010]

Pugnacity/WhateverIAsHave is a 20% increase to your energy regen, which is huge. It should basically be up all day long, every day. I find it's the difference between my opening cycle taking me to half energy and into the regen bad touch zone, and being completely unable to spend energy fast enough. Though admittedly, I pretend Quick Shot has a cooldown, because spamming that is BAD.

My fakedps rotation as a medic is keep my DoT up. Pistol Whip, Shotgun, Quick Shot, autoattack once or twice, repeat when pistol whip is back up.

What the hell is autoattack? 

[kildorn]

Whatever that silly "just shoot them" button is!

It actually does a surprising amount of damage. I like it, since it's on the GCD they seem to be happy to make it actually hit for 100-200 for me.

[caladein]

I'm suspecting now that Kolto Pack is really an oh shit ability for every other spec scoundrel. It's fast and inefficient, but not that much faster than a talented Underworld Medicine.

Past 30, yes, as a healer it's replaced by KoltoSurgical Probe/Emergency Medpac.

[DraconianOne]

Took my untrained, level 13 noob Sawbones into a couple of PvP matches last night.

It was a total disaster of the absolute and unmitigated kind. It didn't help that I got targeted by one particular Sith Marauder (called Khal'Drogo) and my team just stood and watched to see how much I squealed like a stuck pig. 

PvP tips for a Sawbones would be welcome (if they're anything other than "Don't do PvP!")

[amiable]

Took my untrained, level 13 noob Sawbones into a couple of PvP matches last night.

It was a total disaster of the absolute and unmitigated kind. It didn't help that I got targeted by one particular Sith Marauder (called Khal'Drogo) and my team just stood and watched to see how much I squealed like a stuck pig. 

PvP tips for a Sawbones would be welcome (if they're anything other than "Don't do PvP!")

It will get A LOT better as you level up and get your instant heals.  Hardcasting heals in pvp is huge nono.  Once you get your hot traited to give TA, and the instant heal that regens TA when you are below 30% you will be much more difficult to kill.

[ShenMolo]

What is the difference between "Crouch" and "Take Cover"? They seem redundant. Both say they will take cover if it is available, or crouch if cover is not available.

[DraconianOne]

What is the difference between "Crouch" and "Take Cover"? They seem redundant. Both say they will take cover if it is available, or crouch if cover is not available.

From a users perspective, there's effectively no difference at all but from a system perspective, Take Cover gives a defense benefit from being behind an object that Crouch doesn't because you're unconcealed in an open area.

That's my take on it anyway.

[ShenMolo]

Yea, i'm just wondering if there is ever a reason to use Crouch, since Take Cover makes you Crouch if there is no cover to be had.

[kildorn]

I prefer crouch, just due to take cover moving you into odd places if you just want to use the cover skills.

But I'm a scoundrel, and we don't give half a fuck about cover anyways (as much fun as the bomb and rapid shots skills are, they're terrible from an efficiency standpoint for us)

[Mrbloodworth]

Only issue I have had with cover, is sometimes, even though I know there is a cover spot, he won't go in it. That and I am confused as to why some are green arrows that I can't get to change to the player outline.

[luckton]

Only issue I have had with cover, is sometimes, even though I know there is a cover spot, he won't go in it. That and I am confused as to why some are green arrows that I can't get to change to the player outline.

Green arrow = Is a cover spot that you 'can' go to if you move there and hit the Take Cover button, and will provide said coverage.  You have to move your ass to that spot yourself.

Green outline = Is a cover spot you will auto-move to if you hit Take Cover.

[kildorn]

If you just manually hit crouch/cover next to a cover object I find that you get the bonuses anyways (green shield icons for LOS'd targets)

My issue with it is that at certain angles channeled abilities seem to fail randomly. And I just can't have my heals randomly not work halfway through the cast.

[luckton]

My issue with it is that at certain angles channeled abilities seem to fail randomly. And I just can't have my heals randomly not work halfway through the cast.

Same here.  I'm hoping it's a bug and not intentional.

[Nevermore]

I think what happens when it fails is if the ground you're standing on when behind cover is uneven, it can cause you to move when the animation of the ability starts, which then interrupts said ability.

[March]

I think what happens when it fails is if the ground you're standing on when behind cover is uneven, it can cause you to move when the animation of the ability starts, which then interrupts said ability.

Finally, working physics.

Playing as a DPS Operative, I'm finding it exceedingly clunky.  I have stealth, but no stealth opener.  My non-cooldown ability is a blaster shot, and my hand-to-hand ability is on a (too long) cooldown... everything at these early levels seems to be on cooldown, as If I am some burst monster that I clearly am not.  Cover was important for the first 10 levels, now it is useless, but some of my abilities still require it.  My suspicion is that the early Operative clunkiness is just a casualty of needing to balance end-game abilities plus needing to give healing Ops some buttons too... and in the long run when we're all 50, the poor gameplay/animations of 10-2x will all be forgotten.  But until then, they really should consider parceling out an extra ability or two to make up for the fact that 2 of the first 3 heals are just not useful to me in this role (and 2 early abilities rely on a mechanic (cover) that is negated by my role mechanic (stealth)).

This is the first class where I've felt that my AC choice needs a do-over.

Tell me there is a magic level where my abilities "click" with my role?  I _want_ to believe.

[luckton]

Tell me there is a magic level where my abilities "click" with my role?  I _want_ to believe.

There is.  You do eventually get a stealth opener, along with some other neat tricks.  Don't give up on the cover mechanic...I'm sure there will be those fights where you'll need to duck out of the fire, and we're the only class that can do that with the push of a button.

[Lantyssa]

The transition to ACs is still very clunky for some classes.  Operatives and Assassins are the ones with the most trouble I have noticed.

Seriously, those first eight to ten levels as an Assassin were just painful, and made even more so in groups.

[caladein]

I think it clicks a little earlier, maybe ~16 when you get Carbine Burst, but I can see how there isn't enough of an emphasis on Cover being mostly vestigial as soon as you pick Operative.  Part of that might be that Skirmisher (+15% damage on Overload Shot) is just a passive boost versus just getting a whole new shot.

[kildorn]

You basically lose cover as a common mechanic (slightly less as a healer, but completely as a DPS scoundrel/operative)

Mostly because you need to be in there using your 4m range attacks, and not much is going to come over and play with you in cover. The transition is odd (from level 1, the only way you can actually do damage is in cover), but you essentially replace the high damage cover attack with Quick Shot or it's operative counterpart as your filler instant attack. Your from stealth opener is, meh? I mean, it's really good, but in solo pve you won't really give a shit about it imo. Without a distract type ability, it actually turns into a pain to use effectively in a lot of situations where you can't sap/ambush something since the mobs tend to be placed with their backs towards a wall often.

I use spacebackstab whenever possible, but since I usually tank when soloing I get more mileage out of pistol whip, vital shot, and quick shot.

[March]

Right... that's the nub of the problem... 5 abilities are mostly negated, and stealth is more useful as a navigational device than a combat mechanic.  I find myself with very few options in combat and the added bonus of simultaneously being resource starved at level 12 - such that my first "Yay:Tactical Action" ability is...hmmn...an energy boost that almost requires 100% up-time.

As Lantyssa says, the transition for Operative is terrible; I would add that it is bad in ways that should been seen miles away and likely would be fixed by replacing or morphing Snipe/Explosive Probe into abilities Operatives could use without cover (or, more creatively, make Cover in general more interactive with the Operative).

I'm sure they are extremely concerned about this and have long, bitter, tearful debates each and every time they gather in the vault for the daily money massage.

[kildorn]

It happens with both of the classes with really different ACs. Sages and Smugglers both have an odd transition if you pick the AC that isn't like the base class, because you are basically thrown to the wolves at 10 and told to figure it out. Hell, tactical advantage isn't explained at ALL in the course of gameplay that I've seen. It's just explained in a tooltip for something you get passively when picking your AC up.

It didn't really bug me much, but that's because I found kick to the nuts/shotgun to the head to be entirely too hilarious a combo to care about the rest of it.

[March]

It happens with both of the classes with really different ACs. Sages and Smugglers both have an odd transition if you pick the AC that isn't like the base class, because you are basically thrown to the wolves at 10 and told to figure it out. Hell, tactical advantage isn't explained at ALL in the course of gameplay that I've seen. It's just explained in a tooltip for something you get passively when picking your AC up.

It didn't really bug me much, but that's because I found kick to the nuts/shotgun to the head to be entirely too hilarious a combo to care about the rest of it.

With regards Sages, I beg to differ.  Transition is exactly the right word... emphasis from melee to force is quite smooth, everything I did from 1-10 is done better from 10+.