What's going right/wrong with launch...

[kildorn]

Auto grouping is fine with me, personally. Cross server is simply trying to smooth over population curve issues, especially late in the game's life where you have 5 people in leveling zones per server. If you recall, PVP is the first thing that went cross server entirely to avoid lulls of "waaah, nobody on my server wants to play _____"

I'd be more than happy with a system that say, spent 5 minutes trying to put together a server based group, and only poached across server if it couldn't fill slot Y in that timeframe. Keep it local for some community building, but at least acknowledge that if I say I want to do an instance, I don't mean "in 3 hours after staring at the republic fleet vendors all night"

[Paelos]

Cross-server only works for me if you believe there's a server with a bunch of tanks and healers sitting around going, MAN I wish had some dps over here.

[kildorn]

It's entirely possible if you have a low enough server population at the time. In SWTOR so far every group I've been in has had two healers, one just fake DPSing.

[Amaron]

Cross-server only works for me if you believe there's a server with a bunch of tanks and healers sitting around going, MAN I wish had some dps over here.

That has nothing to do with it.   Cross-server is purely a population pool issue.   Good for you that you always play prime time on a well populated server.  Stop being fucking selfish.   They can keep your precious community intact by restricting cross server to old content.

[Sky]

They've talked about it in the sense of pointing out that the game doesn't have it, and that they may or may not change anything the game does or does not have later.

They haven't come out and said they are working on it.

They have, I linked a post-release article days ago with Ohlen saying it will be in soon.

The LFD 'discussion'  

[Paelos]

Cross-server only works for me if you believe there's a server with a bunch of tanks and healers sitting around going, MAN I wish had some dps over here.

That has nothing to do with it.   Cross-server is purely a population pool issue.   Good for you that you always play prime time on a well populated server.  Stop being fucking selfish.   They can keep your precious community intact by restricting cross server to old content.

It's not just a population pool issue in a game where you require roles. Calm down. It would be if everyone was equal and you just needed bodies. That's simply not the case in this format, and there is a definite lack of certain roles due to the "fun" factor of dps classes.

[Margalis]

I was compelled to go back to the patch 3.3 thread in the WoW boards to pull some gems from it. Back when it first came out I don't remember anyone saying anything even close to "this is a bad feature" and were more concerned with bugs using the tool.

Most MMOs follow the path of removing "world" elements over time as the playing population ages, grows more comfortable with the game and previously new and exciting things become rote.

Travel options grow, grouping options grow, class and race restrictions ease, respeccing becomes easier (or possible), etc. The fact that many MMOs follow that path doesn't mean new ones should start at the end of that path, any more so than games with New Game + perks should have those perks available from the outset.

Adding more convenience at the expense of worldyness is the natural lifecycle of an MMO.

[caladein]

Cross-server only works for me if you believe there's a server with a bunch of tanks and healers sitting around going, MAN I wish had some dps over here.

That has nothing to do with it.   Cross-server is purely a population pool issue.   Good for you that you always play prime time on a well populated server.  Stop being fucking selfish.   They can keep your precious community intact by restricting cross server to old content.

It's not just a population pool issue in a game where you require roles. Calm down. It would be if everyone was equal and you just needed bodies. That's simply not the case in this format, and there is a definite lack of certain roles due to the "fun" factor of dps classes.

For reasonable population imbalances, cross-server doesn't really do much at prime time for popular content besides smooth queues out.  The rest of the time for the rest of the content, I think it's the more important half of the system.

[Amaron]

It's not just a population pool issue in a game where you require roles.

It's usually more of a scheduling problem than a lack of healers/tanks.   It's the same reason cross server was necessary for battleground queues.

[Fabricated]

It's not just a population pool issue in a game where you require roles. Calm down. It would be if everyone was equal and you just needed bodies. That's simply not the case in this format, and there is a definite lack of certain roles due to the "fun" factor of dps classes.

I agree with the fact that LFD isn't a silver bullet for the problem that tanking and particularly healing roles are considered a lot less fun than DPS generally and thus you'll still have the 10:1 DPS to healer/tank ratio with cross-server LFD. I think it helps at least a bit however since removing the timesink/annoyance element from actually putting a group together and getting to the zone encourages the tank/healer population to hit dungeons more often.

My worthless personal WoW anecdote is that I ran a lot more dungeons with LFD a lot more often as a tank in WoTLK/Cata than I did in BC where being a solid tank made you god-king among the general /LFG population pre-LFD tool. I got so fucking tired of sitting around in the Netherstorm/Hellfire Peninsula/CoT waiting for people to make their way there or get their guildmate who was "totally coming" so I could slog through the ridiculously overtuned BC heroics. Even after the summon-stone portals went in (or if you had a warlock) it still sucked because people still couldn't get their shit in order, or you'd have to leave someone in town spamming for one more because no one on was interested in the specific dungeon you wanted to run.

Hell, if I went back to Cata now I'd probably get votekicked instantly from 2/3rds of the dungeons I ran because I still have blue gear on my tank. I'd still rather do that than ever sit around with 3-4/5 people for like 45 minutes just to have a chance at having a shitty group.

Again, anecdotes, not evidence. And it's a WoW anecdote on top of that. I can only really speak from my own experience though.

[Mrbloodworth]

Good lord. All the dungeons/Flashpoints are located in one ( there are three other areas for more later it seems ) dam room. Mountain out of molehill. How hard is it to make a 4 man group in a room full of people with a LFG icon next to the name.

I would care more if they were spread around the galaxy, but they are not. Some of the comments make me wonder if you guys are just theory crafting thinking its just like wow, with out even trying as it is in SWTOR.

[caladein]

Good lord. All the dungeons/Flashpoints are located in one dam room. Mountain out of molehill. How hard is it to make a 4 man group in a room full of people with a LFG icon next to the name.

They're not, they're not even all on the same ship.  (Still the same zone though.)

[Mrbloodworth]

Good lord. All the dungeons/Flashpoints are located in one dam room. Mountain out of molehill. How hard is it to make a 4 man group in a room full of people with a LFG icon next to the name.

They're not, they're not even all on the same ship.  (Still the same zone though.)

OH NOZ! So you have one more click to get to another grouping/Room where other people are looking for those same ones. This is not the equivalent of getting to the waling caverns or sunken temple. People really can't fathom just asking the guy in the room next to them if they want to join?   Its more of a travesty that the flashpoints do not scale, and the fact that they don't all seem to follow the Black Talon template.

[Ghambit]

The real issue to me is finding groups for normal everyday questing and heroics, not FP's and such.  I spammed forever to do the last heroic on Balmorra and got nothing during prime gametime.  During said spam, genchat devolved into how LFG disrupts RP.      I'd be happy with just a set LFG channel for starters.  No one uses the custom channel.

[luckton]

I'd be happy with just a set LFG channel for starters.  No one uses the custom channel.

If nothing else, I too would settle for this.  Though such a global channel would quickly and easily devolve into Barrens Chat:Star Wars TOR Edition.  I imagine that my /ignore list would be filled within a day of filtering out the people generating noise vs. the people actually looking for a group.

[kildorn]

Good lord. All the dungeons/Flashpoints are located in one dam room. Mountain out of molehill. How hard is it to make a 4 man group in a room full of people with a LFG icon next to the name.

They're not, they're not even all on the same ship.  (Still the same zone though.)

OH NOZ! So you have one more click to get to another grouping/Room where other people are looking for those same ones. This is not the equivalent of getting to the waling caverns or sunken temple. People really can't fathom just asking the guy in the room next to them if they want to join?   Its more of a travesty that the flashpoints do not scale, and the fact that they don't all seem to follow the Black Talon template.

My complaint with the system is they're all located in one damned room in a place most of us don't want to hang out in. I didn't want to stand around in Org spamming chat, and I don't want to stand around in fleet spamming chat. If it's going to take me an hour to get this group going, I'd like to be playing the GAME for said hour, not using it as a glorified mIRC. I go to the republic fleet once every ~15 levels at my current rate.

[Zetor]

Good lord. All the dungeons/Flashpoints are located in one dam room. Mountain out of molehill. How hard is it to make a 4 man group in a room full of people with a LFG icon next to the name.

They're not, they're not even all on the same ship.  (Still the same zone though.)

OH NOZ! So you have one more click to get to another grouping/Room where other people are looking for those same ones. This is not the equivalent of getting to the waling caverns or sunken temple. People really can't fathom just asking the guy in the room next to them if they want to join?   Its more of a travesty that the flashpoints do not scale, and the fact that they don't all seem to follow the Black Talon template.

My complaint with the system is they're all located in one damned room in a place most of us don't want to hang out in. I didn't want to stand around in Org spamming chat, and I don't want to stand around in fleet spamming chat. If it's going to take me an hour to get this group going, I'd like to be playing the GAME for said hour, not using it as a glorified mIRC. I go to the republic fleet once every ~15 levels at my current rate.

This. "it's ok, just gather in this room in the fleet and you'll get a group!" doesn't actually work in reality. People want to quest, do warzones, etcetera. Whatever the solution is, it needs to be global and doable while you're actually playing the game. It's even better if it's automated... hence LFD.

Getting FP groups on their own is tough enough if you're DPS (and they don't have dual specs yet, so a lot of people are), hanging around in one zone for hours at a time isn't going to work.

[Mrbloodworth]

"it's ok, just gather in this room in the fleet and you'll get a group!"

Yes it does. Try it.

[Zetor]

"it's ok, just gather in this room in the fleet and you'll get a group!"

Yes it does. Try it.

I did, it doesn't. There is nobody in there. Maybe it works on your server for the first FP or something.

The entire thing is a red herring anyway. Standing in one room (that's actually three rooms separated by several elevators and minutes-long taxi rides) is worse than spamming general chat (which can at least be seen by everyone in the fleet), which also doesn't work. edit: to be fair, spamming general sometimes works, but it's still far worse than the LFG functionality of every other mmo on the market

[kildorn]

"it's ok, just gather in this room in the fleet and you'll get a group!"

Yes it does. Try it.

No, it doesn't. The vast majority of people in your level bracket will be on planets, not in fleet. I expect that to stay the same when everyone's 50, because there's jack all to do in the fleet. You're going to wind up with the old WoW system: find someone to group with, then one of you spams fleet, the other goes to *level appropriate zone* to spam, and the whole thing just winds up being a chore to try and do something a computer can solve quickly and easily. All for a group of people that may be entirely nice, but I have no actual interest in getting to know on a personal level.

Seriously: It's like forming Battlefield 3 teams by making you spam forums until your party has reached a certain number, and THEN you can play the game. Or.. we could let the system know you're interested in playing said game, and have it put everyone who is interested in a group together!

[Paelos]

Do you people not have guilds or something? Or do you have shitty family and friends guilds who are never online?

[luckton]

Do you people not have guilds or something? Or do you have shitty family and friends guilds who are never online?

Illogical argument and you know it, unless your particular guild apparently bends to your will and everytime you say in guild chat "I want to run Black Talon" they all stop what they're doing and come help you.

Which, if that's the case, tell me your secrets 

[Paelos]

Do you people not have guilds or something? Or do you have shitty family and friends guilds who are never online?

Illogical argument and you know it, unless your particular guild apparently bends to your will and everytime you say in guild chat "I want to run Black Talon" they all stop what they're doing and come help you.

Which, if that's the case, tell me your secrets 

They usually do. Mostly because I'm a tank and my co-lead is a healer. I can understand that if you're a dps people just pat you on the head, say that's nice, and go on with their day.

[luckton]

Do you people not have guilds or something? Or do you have shitty family and friends guilds who are never online?

Illogical argument and you know it, unless your particular guild apparently bends to your will and everytime you say in guild chat "I want to run Black Talon" they all stop what they're doing and come help you.

Which, if that's the case, tell me your secrets 

They usually do. Mostly because I'm a tank and my co-lead is a healer. I can understand that if you're a dps people just pat you on the head, say that's nice, and go on with their day.

This guild.  I must join it 

Seriously though, you're a rare case I'd say.  Since you're already providing the two base-building blocks for a good group, with +5 awesomeness as an already-established duo that know what you're doing, I can see why a couple people would be easy to pick up.

[Numtini]

A global LFG channel solves most if not all of these problems. It was easy as could be to group in EQ2 using their every-ten-level channels.

[Mrbloodworth]

Look to your right. /open who, Click "invite to group". Run Flash point.

[eldaec]

Do you people not have guilds or something? Or do you have shitty family and friends guilds who are never online?

No sidekicking, so only once in 20 attempts is a normal sized guild able to help even if it wanted to.

[kildorn]

Do you people not have guilds or something? Or do you have shitty family and friends guilds who are never online?

I have a shitty family and friends guild!

But uh: If the goal is to only group with your guild.. fine. Those people are never going to touch an LFD system at all anyways. LFD systems are to deal with everyone else who may for whatever reason be playing alone for the day and still want to do group content. Turns out there are bunches of them, and making things easier for them to find each other strikes me as a net positive.

[Paelos]

All for a group of people that may be entirely nice, but I have no actual interest in getting to know on a personal level.

I guess I take issue with this as your point. This is a multiplayer game. If you actually liked grouping with someone, you can add them to friends lists and suddenly you have another go-to option when you want to run something. This can happen over and over.

The idea of the "disposable friends" that LFD engendered in WoW to me is not only the reverse of what a game like an MMO is about, it's a detriment to retention of the playerbase. I've heard the excuses for why people don't want to make the effort to group. They are older, professional people who just want to log in and do what they want, whenever they want. Well, so am I, but to counteract the demands of the game, I made friendships with people in and out of my guild, played a class that's in demand, and in general opened the doors to people who want to do things. This was in WoW and SWTOR, and in many cases there was a lot of carryover.

Part of the reason I hate the LFD system as much as I do is the disposable friends concept. It smacks of entitlement, selfishness, and the all-to-familiar thread of internet assholery. Even worse, when it was cross-server and I found somebody I liked, I was screwed in trying to contact them again for a group.

[kildorn]

All for a group of people that may be entirely nice, but I have no actual interest in getting to know on a personal level.

I guess I take issue with this as your point. This is a multiplayer game. If you actually liked grouping with someone, you can add them to friends lists and suddenly you have another go-to option when you want to run something. This can happen over and over.

The idea of the "disposable friends" that LFD engendered in WoW to me is not only the reverse of what a game like an MMO is about, it's a detriment to retention of the playerbase. I've heard the excuses for why people don't want to make the effort to group. They are older, professional people who just want to log in and do what they want, whenever they want. Well, so am I, but to counteract the demands of the game, I made friendships with people in and out of my guild, played a class that's in demand, and in general opened the doors to people who want to do things. This was in WoW and SWTOR, and in many cases there was a lot of carryover.

Part of the reason I hate the LFD system as much as I do is the disposable friends concept. It smacks of entitlement, selfishness, and the all-to-familiar thread of internet assholery. Even worse, when it was cross-server and I found somebody I liked, I was screwed in trying to contact them again for a group.

LFD didn't make me consider people disposable friends. Just plain grouping did. If they're exceptional or hilarious, I'll friend them and group with them. Hell, I ran away from my guild for a few months with people I met in random PUGs. But 99% of the people I met in trade chat groups? Faceless masses whose purpose was to jointly complete a mission. About the same opinion I have about 99% of the people I work on projects with at work! Hello person I'm probably never going to work with again. I'm not going to be a dick to you or anything, but I'm not going to get to know about your wife either. We're here to do a job.

Disposable friends are not entitlement or selfishness in my mind at all. Or assholery. It's simply the logical conclusion of getting random people together for an event that will last less than a full evening. They're disposable friends in the same way as the people you meet at a dinner party. A number of people who happen to all be in one location for a set period of time for a set reason. If some wind up liking each other a lot, score. If not, no harm no foul.  We all went out, had a good time, and left at the end of the night. Woo.

[Simond]

So Paelos is happy in forcing his guild to act as his personal servants when he wants to run dungeons, and Mr Bloodworth thinks sitting in a zone spamming "DPS LFG" is engaging and desirable gameplay. Has anyone got any, you know, compelling defences of the lack of an adequate LFG system?

[Mrbloodworth]

^ lolz.

[Thrawn]

Something must be going right since the game is now MSNBC's 2011 Game of the Year apparently.  

Pre-order dollars hard at work.

 

[Murgos]

Something must be going right since the game is now MSNBC's 2011 Game of the Year apparently.  

Pre-order dollars hard at work.

 

I've been considering buying some EA calls for just after the next quarter.  This last one has been very good to them and their price is pretty low at the moment.

[Paelos]

So Paelos is happy in forcing his guild to act as his personal servants when he wants to run dungeons, and Mr Bloodworth thinks sitting in a zone spamming "DPS LFG" is engaging and desirable gameplay. Has anyone got any, you know, compelling defences of the lack of an adequate LFG system?

I've said before, I have no problem with a good flagging system being implemented. I do have a problem with cross-server matching unless you give me the ability to continually group with or hold accountable those on the other end.