What's going right/wrong with launch...

[luckton]

Why the fuck did we just have this discussion again?  They've said repeatedly now that a LFD tool is coming eventually.

Jesus fuck people.

That's the rub though.  Reid actually said just the other day that while LFD is on the radar, it's not a priority thing.  They want people to go old school and use the social channels.

[eldaec]

And even if the Devs had said they were definitely going to do it (afaik they haven't), why would you expect that to prevent people discussing whether it is or isn't a good idea on a mmog discussion board.

I never understand the 'f13 will only discuss things once and when Devs have not made a decision' expectation that some people seem to have.

People discuss mmog mechanics on mmog forums. Take off your beret and deal with it.

[Murgos]

And even if the Devs had said they were definitely going to do it (afaik they haven't), why would you expect that to prevent people discussing whether it is or isn't a good idea on a mmog discussion board.

I never understand the 'f13 will only discuss things once and when Devs have not made a decision' expectation that some people seem to have.

People discuss mmog mechanics on mmog forums. Take off your beret and deal with it.

Because no one is discussing whether it is or isn't a good idea, people are just continuously re-asserting their point of view with strong and stronger language.  No one in the last 50 posts has provided objective numbers that could actually be used to formulate a real answer.  It is the absolute worst form bullying, it is actually closer to religion than any kind of real problem solving.  Additionally, the people who do have those numbers, and have them in spades, don't think it's a high priority to implement LFD but have said on several occasions that they will add it when they see it's needed.

So, yeah, shut the fuck up about it already.

[eldaec]

Raph had numbers when he implemented HAM.

Verdant had numbers when they designed and maintained corpse running.

[Simond]

So people aren't allowed to dislike the WoW style LFG tool?  Good to know!  God knows, I'd hate to find myself out of step with public opinion.

It's perfectly fine to have an opinion on something. People have incorrect opinions on all sorts of things all the time! 

Mouth-breathers pushing back on LFD sound like the forum-dwelling mongoloids arguing against mods because recount exposed their brain damage. These tools are popular because they're good. Players like them. Players rely on them. They make the game better. Any alternative to LFD must actually be superior to LFD and accepted by players as such.

Those tools are popular because a certain hardcore segment of the population likes to use them to play a certain way and beat the rest of the population upside the head with the data.  LOTRO has neither an advanced LFG mechanism, damage parser or extensively modifiable UI and it is a terrific game.  The fact that folks prefer this model to WoW does not mean they are "forum-dwelling mongoloids": they just have a different opinion than you.

Honestly your post illustrates precisely what is wrong with WoW and why casual and friends and family groups are fleeing that game in droves. 

Wait, LFD is a hardcore tool? What colour is the sky in your world? Handy hint: Hardcore players are more likely to organise their own groups (usually from a clique inside of a guild) rather than run with a pick-up group. Dungeon finders moves things back towards parity.

[Maledict]

And even if the Devs had said they were definitely going to do it (afaik they haven't), why would you expect that to prevent people discussing whether it is or isn't a good idea on a mmog discussion board.

I never understand the 'f13 will only discuss things once and when Devs have not made a decision' expectation that some people seem to have.

People discuss mmog mechanics on mmog forums. Take off your beret and deal with it.

.  Additionally, the people who do have those numbers, and have them in spades, don't think it's a high priority to implement LFD but have said on several occasions that they will add it when they see it's needed.

So, yeah, shut the fuck up about it already.

I'm sorry but blind appeals to authority don't wash much. Blizzard had the numbers on meeting stones for **4** years before getting them to a state of usefulness. Devs have a remarkably ability to ignore evidence and logic when it comes to pet beliefs about how people should play rather than how people do play. Heck, the entirety of MMO gaming history could be summed up in that one sentence.

[Simond]

Hey, maybe that will be EA's 'fix' for LFG - bringing back the retard rocks! 

[Lakov_Sanite]

Really, you have two choices. 

Do you want WOW with voiceover?

Or do you want EQ with voiceover?

Cause it's one or the other here people, game may be fun but innovative it ain't.  So just ask yourself if the voiceovers were gone, which game would you prefer?

[Ingmar]

Considering that leveling characters isn't really the point here, and you'll get there just by doing all your quests anyway, this function of an LFD system is completely pointless.  The 'point' in WoW is to get to max level so you can get to the 'real' game.  The 'point' in SWTOR is to play the story, so leveling characters don't actually gain any benefit from flashpoint leveling. 

Totally wrong. The non-class story part of the quest-based leveling does not vary by class. Having alternate options available for your 2nd/3rd/4th time through, whether that's a functional dungeon finder, space combat, PVP, etc., will go a long way to making playing an alt a less repetitive experience. You still will do your class story, but you won't have to do the other quests on, say, Nar Shaddaa 4 times each. This matters a lot.

[trias_e]

Oh shit, we're still talking about this?  

Not everything players use will necessarily be good for retention.  I don't recall WoW entering a golden age of retention after implementing LFD.  You could argue it stemmed the tide of subscriber loss, but while I'm sure there's evidence that it's heavily used, that doesn't mean it was good for the game or subscriber numbers.  While it is understandable that most people do want the loot pinata at the end of the dungeon with as little fuss as possible (and have been skinner-ized to do so by the game), to at least some extent socialization makes MMOs 'stickier'.  LFD, at least in a server-cluster form, damages this to at least some extent.  Everyone can like and use your features and give your game high marks, yet your game ends up less 'sticky' than other games.  I would argue that the WoW-clones ran into this problem head on.  They weren't in general any worse than WoW, but since WoW was stickier due to the socialization process it's initial model to some extent encouraged (and being first, of course), WoW retained and the clones did not.

I stopped playing WoW for about 4 years.  When I came back in the era of the LFD tool, the groups were noticeably worse when it comes to internet assholery than they were before.  This, I believe, is due to the Penny Arcade maxim:  Anonymity = Fuckwad, and these players from other servers whom I will never see again are basically anonymous.  And worst of all, you couldn't actually filter out any of it:  You basically just had to quit and try again if the people you were randomly assigned were raging douchebags.  It's possible WoW players just became bigger dicks of their own accord during this time span and it had little to do with LFD, I suppose.

Finally:  Finding a guild if you aren't in one becomes much more difficult when you rarely play with people from your own server.  One common way to find a guild in the past was grouping with people in the guild becomes much harder.  I wonder how many people who praise the LFD system have tried playing days as an utter noob without any social connections.  In my experience, it was absolutely miserable.

Stating that there are only two choices in this regard, EQ or WoW, isn't correct IMO.  There is a LFG system which strikes a middle ground.  It's not as efficient as WoW's, but it retains socialization stickyness and allows you to filter out people you hate.  The reason it hasn't worked isn't because the system is bad, but because the devs haven't presented it properly and haven't given rewards for using it.  

1)  Make a solid LFG system with checkable instances, roles, filtering and sorting.
2)  Bring up LFG window anytime you get a flashpoint mission, automatically filtered towards that mission.
3)  Let people teleport to others through the LFG window, and not otherwise.
4)  Give people an XP bonus for using it.
5)  Don't make the LFG window location based (wtf WoW stones)

[Morfiend]

As much as I have always lauded Blizzard for taking the pain out of a lot of things, I am very torn on the LFD tool. On one hand, I really love being able to get in to instances easily and to experience the content. But on the other hand, I do see what it does to the game. WoW has become people sitting around in Org / Stormwind, waiting in queues. The world for the most part becomes just a lobby once you are at max level, and I hate that.

I am thinking maybe some sort of LFG tool that will find players and match you up, but that it wont just port you directly to the dungeon. /shrug, just sort of thinking out loud on that one.

[Mrbloodworth]

I'm avidly against implementing WoWs LFG system in this game. It would be a complete clusterfuck from the story perspective, the tone of the game, and bring with it the downsides of all the WoW problems that the LFG created.

I have no problem with a flagging system. I have no problem with a suggested matching system. I do have a problem with cross-server bandaids on the fact that there still won't be enough tanks and healers to go around for lazy dps who can't or won't organize a group.

No LFG won't stop the community from being shit, it'll only stop you from ever running the low-level flashpoints that aren't Esselles ever fucking again when almost everyone has hit cap 3 months from now.

I'll say that again since you seem to be in the denial phase of "MMO players are 99% shitheads" again for some reason: No LFG will absolutely NOT improve the community or prevent it from getting worse.

You're literally making the case for a slightly less retarded version of the retard-rocks from WoW. The only thing easier than spamming LFG is pushing a button and getting a group; it's just that the former usually takes a lot longer than the latter. Nothing inbetween that will work, as evidenced by the LFG flag thing that NO ONE IS USING.

I believe this is why they said a LFD system is best for a more aged game.

[Samprimary]

I'm very, very good at JK/SW, but I have to concede that the class is in a bad place right now, and they may not even really be in a hurry to fix it, in order to keep that class from being blatantly overpopulated. Our guild cluster was put on harbinger and subsequently we found ourselves all unable to play till we hurled everyone to a not overburdened server. The default UI and control scheme gives me hives, because I'm forced to work without macros in spite of there being a very overwhelming glut of abilities to use; I'm already mapped out for eight mouse buttons for regular, shift, alt, and control click — and still they come.

Outside of that, little to complain about. Amazingly, once all is said and done, it's a good product in a field not known for them.

[Velorath]

Considering that leveling characters isn't really the point here, and you'll get there just by doing all your quests anyway, this function of an LFD system is completely pointless.  The 'point' in WoW is to get to max level so you can get to the 'real' game.  The 'point' in SWTOR is to play the story, so leveling characters don't actually gain any benefit from flashpoint leveling. 

Totally wrong. The non-class story part of the quest-based leveling does not vary by class. Having alternate options available for your 2nd/3rd/4th time through, whether that's a functional dungeon finder, space combat, PVP, etc., will go a long way to making playing an alt a less repetitive experience. You still will do your class story, but you won't have to do the other quests on, say, Nar Shaddaa 4 times each. This matters a lot.

So you want LFD, a tool essentially made for quickly getting together groups to repeat the same content over and over again, because it will offer up an alternative to repeating content?

[Ingmar]

Yes? The more ways to level the less you repeat content, this is not rocket science.

[Velorath]

Yes? The more ways to level the less you repeat content, this is not rocket science.

Unless you're using LFD to run each Flashpoint once and then never do it again, it's encouraging repeating content.

[sam, an eggplant]

Are you being purposefully obtuse? This seems like a very simple concept.

[Ingmar]

Yes? The more ways to level the less you repeat content, this is not rocket science.

Unless you're using LFD to run each Flashpoint once and then never do it again, it's encouraging repeating content.

Sure, but without a functional LFD system that content might as well not be there at all. The more different content you have access to, the more you can avoid repeating. This is not complicated.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Once you're past the curve, levelling dungeons in mmo's may as well not exist, in addition neither do non top-tier endgame dungeons(non-heroics)  Getting groups for anything like sunken temple in wow? good fucking luck.  This is even worse because often you'll get quests to go into these places that end up just sitting in your log until you're high enough level to solo them.

I agree wow's lfd could be implemented in a better way but SWTOR didn't just tak a step back, they took several when they designed theirs.

[Velorath]

Yes? The more ways to level the less you repeat content, this is not rocket science.

Unless you're using LFD to run each Flashpoint once and then never do it again, it's encouraging repeating content.

Sure, but without a functional LFD system that content might as well not be there at all. The more different content you have access to, the more you can avoid repeating. This is not complicated.

I'm not Captain Social and I've managed to do a number of Flashpoints.  In an alt-heavy game with 4 man groups and companions, I don't see it as really being that difficult to get a group in the future, but time will tell on that one I guess.  Beyond that aside from some interesting boss mechanics, I don't really think Flashpoints are that big a deal after you've done them once to check out the story (and even then some don't have much in the way of story).  The gear is comparable to Commendation gear, crafting gear, etc..., so it's not like you're going to be leveling in greens if you don't do the Flashpoints.  The xp also doesn't seem to come any faster than when it does during questing.  Missing out on a Flashpoint isn't really much different that missing out on the Heroic quests I'm sure a lot of us end up passing up, but I don't hear any clamor for something similar to an LFD system for those.  I think some people are stuck in a WoW state of mind and don't realize that grinding Flashpoints isn't like grinding Dungeons.

[Trippy]

[Velorath]

You make a compelling argument.

[Margalis]

From what I understand SWTOR is heavily instanced even in areas that traditionally aren't instanced at all, which is going to make finding compatible groups tough as people spread out in levels.

I'm torn on the whole LFD thing. On one hand I get that it can be a pain in the ass to find groups, on the other hand I feel like if you have some tool that groups you and warps you to a dungeon then when the dungeon is over your group immediately splits you aren't really playing an MMO as much as a lobby-based dungeon game like Monster Hunter or PSO.

At some point if you strip too much world out of an MMO you are switching genres.

[Trippy]

You make a compelling argument.

Wasn't directed at you specifically.

[Morfiend]

From what I understand SWTOR is heavily instanced even in areas that traditionally aren't instanced at all, which is going to make finding compatible groups tough as people spread out in levels.

I'm torn on the whole LFD thing. On one hand I get that it can be a pain in the ass to find groups, on the other hand I feel like if you have some tool that groups you and warps you to a dungeon then when the dungeon is over your group immediately splits you aren't really playing an MMO as much as a lobby-based dungeon game like Monster Hunter or PSO.

At some point if you strip too much world out of an MMO you are switching genres.

I think I said I had almost the exact same feeling about 10ish posts ago. 

[Velorath]

On another note the game has been virtually unplayable for me lately due to disconnects, which is not an uncommon problem.  Didn't have any disconnects during the beta weekend, or during early access up until the 18th.  Then things were ok again after launch until the 23rd.  I've been disconnecting pretty much every 15-30 minutes of play, and have tried every possible suggestion to try to fix it.

[Ingmar]

Yes? The more ways to level the less you repeat content, this is not rocket science.

Unless you're using LFD to run each Flashpoint once and then never do it again, it's encouraging repeating content.

Sure, but without a functional LFD system that content might as well not be there at all. The more different content you have access to, the more you can avoid repeating. This is not complicated.

I'm not Captain Social and I've managed to do a number of Flashpoints.  In an alt-heavy game with 4 man groups and companions, I don't see it as really being that difficult to get a group in the future, but time will tell on that one I guess.  Beyond that aside from some interesting boss mechanics, I don't really think Flashpoints are that big a deal after you've done them once to check out the story (and even then some don't have much in the way of story).  The gear is comparable to Commendation gear, crafting gear, etc..., so it's not like you're going to be leveling in greens if you don't do the Flashpoints.  The xp also doesn't seem to come any faster than when it does during questing.  Missing out on a Flashpoint isn't really much different that missing out on the Heroic quests I'm sure a lot of us end up passing up, but I don't hear any clamor for something similar to an LFD system for those.  I think some people are stuck in a WoW state of mind and don't realize that grinding Flashpoints isn't like grinding Dungeons.

If you're not going to run them more than once anyway, why do you give a shit if they give the people who will use it a LFD system?

[Velorath]

With Flashpoints as they are now I don't really give a shit if they do implement it, I just don't agree with the "it has to be in or this game will fail crowd".  What I'd like to avoid, and what I feel like a lot of WoW players want is an lfd tool that makes your groups for you and teleports you to the instance, AND offers up most of the best loot and the fastest xp at which point it will become the only content a good chunk of the players will do.

[Ingmar]

I don't think it will fail without it, but again, I just don't see how it affects you even if they do make it the magical silver bullet of fast leveling.

[Velorath]

I don't think it will fail without it, but again, I just don't see how it affects you even if they do make it the magical silver bullet of fast leveling.

Because long term I think it's bad for the game if the player base burns itself out on grinding flashpoints.  I think there are a lot of people who literally can't help themselves and will skip over content that they'd enjoy because they feel pressured to level as quickly as possible, and I don't believe that's a healthy mentality for the devs to encourage if they want their game to be successful in the long run, especially when they've designed their game with such a "it's the journey not the destination" philosophy.

[Thrawn]

But on the other hand I'm skipping over almost all heroic and flashpoint content because it's too much of a hassle and time waster to find a group to run them.  I'm 31 and have only run Esseles and Hammer, and I ran Hammer way late with a group of guys I know or I wouldn't of seen that yet.

[amiable]

Wait, LFD is a hardcore tool? What colour is the sky in your world? Handy hint: Hardcore players are more likely to organise their own groups (usually from a clique inside of a guild) rather than run with a pick-up group. Dungeon finders moves things back towards parity.

I was referring to parsers and dps meters that he had referenced earlier in his post (i don't think I was clear in that upon re-reading).

[Velorath]

But on the other hand I'm skipping over almost all heroic and flashpoint content because it's too much of a hassle and time waster to find a group to run them.  I'm 31 and have only run Esseles and Hammer, and I ran Hammer way late with a group of guys I know or I wouldn't of seen that yet.

To me, a server-wide LFG channel would make it sufficiently easy to put together groups while working on other stuff.

[Tannhauser]

On another note the game has been virtually unplayable for me lately due to disconnects, which is not an uncommon problem.  Didn't have any disconnects during the beta weekend, or during early access up until the 18th.  Then things were ok again after launch until the 23rd.  I've been disconnecting pretty much every 15-30 minutes of play, and have tried every possible suggestion to try to fix it.

I'm having the same issue.  I've quit grouping because of it and I've done all flashpoints up to Caedeminu(sp).  It's frustrating.

[sam, an eggplant]

I think there are a lot of people who literally can't help themselves and will skip over content that they'd enjoy because they feel pressured to level as quickly as possible, and I don't believe that's a healthy mentality for the devs to encourage if they want their game to be successful in the long run,

You're conflating "legitimate equal alternative" with "fastest possible route". For some reason that fallacy has proven very common in this thread. They are not equivalent.

Dungeons, PvP, etc, should be legit alternatives to questing, offering roughly the same speed, so players can progress however they want.