Pre-release thread discussion

[Furiously]

Didn't they do their shadows in software?

[lamaros]

Looks like your glass house is actually a one way mirror; everyone can see in but you can't see out.

I still wonder why you are in a forum for a game you have declared you won't even try.

Because I find games interesting and like talking about them. Apart from the last two days all I have done is read, not post. Why do you talk about WoW if you've given up on it?

[Paelos]

Because I like to argue with Rokal. And because I'll probably resub to the stupid Panda thing when all my friends do.

[Sobelius]

IMO what makes it look plastic-like is that everything has the same consistency. The skin on the face, the metal bits and the cloth all look to be made of the same material. It's almost as if the game doesn't support spec maps and/or the same shader is used for every poly on the character.

It works for me because it's generally internally consistent. Lighting, unfortunately, is not consistent. My weapon casts light, but the huge glowing blue sign I'm standing next to doesn't register? :(

What I really *want* is to be able to play in a world that looks and moves like the TOR cinematic trailers and has character detail as in the trailers. I suspect it will get there in my lifetime, given how far we've come since 1999 EQ1. The use of haze and focus has added a much needed depth to environments. Now if we can get to the level of skin and hair detail -- even as nice as in the original WoW cinematic -- that would be sweet indeed.

[Kageru]

Remember when EQ2 launched and had graphics designed 'for the future', hardware that didn't exist in the consumer market yet. I'm not a huge fan of SWTOR's graphics, but at least they aren't going for the same awesome tech strategy that EQ2 went for :p

Yes, I remember that well. And the game design was all about limiting the game-play to improve balance and in the process managed to drain all the fun out of it. EQ2, and the EQ1 expansions at the time, were the very best advertisement for WoW.

With the long development cycle, and need for a broad acceptance amongst more than just hard core gamers, keeping the graphics demands under control makes good sense. And I guess the need to support crowds wearing a huge pool of possible gear cuts down on how complex the textures can be.

[eldaec]

From what I've seen, mediocre animation is bothering me more than the models.

EQ2 had really good animation, and that pretty much got me past the terrible plastic models in that game.

[Falconeer]

You can say what you want about EQ2, but they did interior locations like no one else in MMOs, and their cities were totally alive. While the graphics in general were a mess, terrible performance and horrible characters, the world felt so alive. Qeynos felt a lot like Whiterun in Skyrim (at the time to be fair I compared that to Morrowind), and the level of details inside every house and building was insane (in fact, I still think they have the best house editor ever made). Same for some dungeons. Remember Nektropos Castle? That of course got lost over the expansions, since it certainly required lots of money and time. Like the voiceovers.

So, not sure how all that impacted performances, probably a lot, but it was 2004. 7 years later (and to clarify, this is absolutely not a jab just to SWTOR) wouldn't be bad to expect something on par with that.


EDIT: cause you should never type first thing in the morning before washing your face.

[Surlyboi]

I will agree with Falc about EQ2's interiors.

[Modern Angel]

Because I like to argue with Rokal. And because I'll probably resub to the stupid Panda thing when all my friends do.

So you don't like subjective arguments or critiques but WoW is so objectively awful that you're heading back soon.

Here's the thing: I don't give two damns about WoW. I think it's awful for a variety of reasons, and this is after I spent more time in it at a higher level than probably most of the people posting here. But you don't get to spend six months making spittle-flecked, borderline ranting arguments about what you hate about WoW or what you think is driving sub losses or how much you hate raiders, etc, etc, etc, etc and then dump on someone's arguments about fucking GRAPHICS of all things because it's subjective.

[Paelos]

Because I like to argue with Rokal. And because I'll probably resub to the stupid Panda thing when all my friends do.

Here's the thing: I don't give two damns about WoW. I think it's awful for a variety of reasons, and this is after I spent more time in it at a higher level than probably most of the people posting here. But you don't get to spend six months making spittle-flecked, borderline ranting arguments about what you hate about WoW or what you think is driving sub losses or how much you hate raiders, etc, etc, etc, etc and then dump on someone's arguments about fucking GRAPHICS of all things because it's subjective.

Sure I can. Despite you trying to equate the two they are not the same thing. Then again, only two people seem to be hung up on this in the thread while the rest of the people want to move on, so I don't think we need to bother with my motivations about subjective arguments regarding a game that's not even released.

[Modern Angel]

Well, it basically IS released, quite aside from the ridiculousness of your general stampede about WoW and raiding these past six months, which I'll let lie.

You've been around the block before. I'll play the release client in... three hours. I can guarantee it won't be substantially different. There's nothing magic going on here; they're a video game company. They work on the same time tables as everyone else. The notion that you can't comment on an MMO less than a month before release is ludicrous. It's finished. The best you'll see are a few optimization pushes and MAYBE anti-aliasing being turned on.

Also, I like the graphics a lot so that's not what's going on here.

[Paelos]

Ok so you like the graphics and you like the game, but you don't like my stance on WoW.

So, that's settled. Do you want to hug it out? 

[Modern Angel]

I don't do hugs. I'm annoyed at your railing against subjective arguments after you've spent months borderline bullying anyone in the WoW forums who deviates from your subjective WoW is badwrongfun arguments. Hell, you even brought it in here during the weird MODS ARE FOR RAIDERS I HATE THEM AND RAIDERS thing, which confused even the mildest posters here enough to spur them to comment.

You're taking the wrong tack. The right one is "the graphics are fine because it's going to push boxes, shut up." The wrong one is "I don't DO subjective arguments and I don't like CRITIQUE, shut up." The latter is ridiculous.

[Paelos]

I am bullying you? On an internet forum?

I think you place my opinion too highly that it should bother you. I'm just one monkey with access to the internet and free time at work. When I have an opinion, I will back it up with numbers if I believe I am right.

You're trying to equate graphics (art) and subjective opinions thereof, with my opinions on a gaming system that was dramatically changed during an expansion and has since caused WoW a substantial amount of financial woe. These two things are not the same at all.

You sure you don't want to hug? They are free!

[Lakov_Sanite]

Ok so you like the graphics and you like the game, but you don't like my stance on WoW.

So, that's settled. Do you want to hug it out? 

Worst.Troll.Ever

[DraconianOne]

Well, it basically IS released, quite aside from the ridiculousness of your general stampede about WoW and raiding these past six months, which I'll let lie.

You've been around the block before. I'll play the release client in... three hours. I can guarantee it won't be substantially different. There's nothing magic going on here; they're a video game company. They work on the same time tables as everyone else. The notion that you can't comment on an MMO less than a month before release is ludicrous. It's finished. The best you'll see are a few optimization pushes and MAYBE anti-aliasing being turned on.

Less than three weeks before WoW's release, Blizzard finally added racial traits and Talents for Hunters and Paladins. Also they decided to announce a couple of new raids.

Plus ca change...

[Modern Angel]

I'd be shocked if you see anything like that in the release candidate today.

[luckton]

Less than three weeks before WoW's release, Blizzard finally added racial traits and Talents for Hunters and Paladins. Also they decided to announce a couple of new raids.

Plus ca change...

Apparently the new build that went out just after the Turkey Weekend Test has already introduced 1877 new items (all but 129 are item mods), 600 new crafting schematics, and this new ability:

 

[Modern Angel]

Do any of those new items make SWTOR a substantially different game? Different enough that comments the build prior to Tgiving build were completely invalidated? And do you think that today's build is liable to make the game substantially different, enough that any comments prior to today are invalidated?

They're not changing the classes or adding new zones or anything today. That's the kind of thing I mean.

[SnakeCharmer]

Apparently the new build that went out just after the Turkey Weekend Test has already introduced 1877 new items (all but 129 are item mods), 600 new crafting schematics, and this new ability:

 

With an eighteen hour cool down

 

[Falconeer]

Considering in my list of gripes itemization and travel times weren't issues, this patch while appreciated doesn't do much to me.

Also, for all of you who keep poking at me for mentioning graphics, hence apparently invalidating my own criticism, I want to point out that in said list of complaints graphics are just one out of twelve.

[Mosesandstick]

Travel times become an issue.

[Modern Angel]

Oh, that's good to know.

[Mrbloodworth]

Apparently the new build that went out just after the Turkey Weekend Test has already introduced 1877 new items (all but 129 are item mods), 600 new crafting schematics, and this new ability:

 

With an eighteen hour cool down

 

Its a nice to have option. We already have the recall or whatever its called every 30 min.

[Montague]

Apparently the new build that went out just after the Turkey Weekend Test has already introduced 1877 new items (all but 129 are item mods), 600 new crafting schematics, and this new ability:

 

With an eighteen hour cool down

 

Glad they added this. If they want the Fleet to be the social hub then something like this is necessary. 18 hours though? That's fucking stupid.

[murdoc]

Its a nice to have option. We already have the recall or whatever its called every 30 min.

Speaking of which, why the Hell is changing instances tied to your recall (or whatever it's called)? That pissed me off greatly the first time switching instances borked on me and I couldn't try again for half an hour.

[Mrbloodworth]

Yeah, I grouped with someone ( Random ), we both tried to switch, ending up in two separate instances again. /Disband HOWEVER! When you join a group, you get a popup asking if you want to switch instances, so there is that.

[Tyrnan]

Its a nice to have option. We already have the recall or whatever its called every 30 min.

Speaking of which, why the Hell is changing instances tied to your recall (or whatever it's called)? That pissed me off greatly the first time switching instances borked on me and I couldn't try again for half an hour.

From the new patch...

Moving to a new planet instance no longer uses the players Quick Travel cooldown.

[TripleDES]

Glad they added this. If they want the Fleet to be the social hub then something like this is necessary. 18 hours though? That's fucking stupid.

When I stopped, I was on Coruscant and had no fucking clue how to get back to the fleet. This would have helped.

Apparently I had to finish my story line, to get my ship, so that the game finally let me do shit at my own leisure and will. Not nice.

[palmer_eldritch]

It's a diku mud based around doing quests and fighting. I think that's what everyone expected, but I was hoping STtOR with its mighty budget and IP might give us quests which were a bit more original and interesting than the average MMO, and do something a bit different with the combat (don't know what, just different). A shinier, better diku mud than we were used to. But the basic gameplay doesn't seem to innovate much, as far as I can see. Some of the combat animations are pretty cool.

The storylines and voice acting, however, are a step forward for MMOs. They are just better than anything that's come before imho. Note that I am drawing a distinction between the storyline, which basically involves talking to NPCs and viewing cutscenes, and the quests, by which I mean the tasks you actually carry out as a player (kill ten foozles). But obviously I know they are connected.

I like the graphical style. Cartoony but not too cartoony. It seemed to me that the graphics ought to look pretty good on any machine, old or new, but there was a lot of complaining in beta about low frame rates from some people. Maybe that's one of those issues that can be fixed before launch.

[koro]

So the new final pre-release build's playable. Immediately noticeable things: new borders around inventory icons, moddable items are highlighted some burnt orange color, missions now cost half the price they used to, there's still no anti-clown suit button, and speeder bikes cost twice as much.

[01101010]

So the new final pre-release build's playable. Immediately noticeable things: new borders around inventory icons, moddable items are highlighted some burnt orange color, missions now cost half the price they used to, there's still no anti-clown suit button, and speeder bikes cost twice as much.

 

For fuck sake why not? It was in before and it was a great idea.

[luckton]

Patch notes

http://www.wp.torspace.com/?p=377

[Margalis]

"Cartoony" graphics don't magically take less processing power than realistic graphics, in some cases they can take more.

[Paelos]

Here are the ones I thought were funny from the patch notes:

Companion Characters now vocalize less frequently during combat. - STFU Vette, I'm fighting here!
Battlelord Kreshan now drops loot - That had to be disappointing before
The final boss no longer continually respawns - Hilarious
A normal enemy NPC in this Flashpoint no longer drops boss loot. - Also hilarious
Nightmare Mode chests now contain loot. - Empty chests make me sad.
Bonethrasher no longer enters a state that causes him to cease executing his combat mechanics. - They gave him Xanex for his combat depression
Most Wanted: The weapon cache now provides a companion weapon. - Before they contained silly hats?
Character limitations will now display in the error message when players enter a name that is too long. - Fuck you Galahihixabalodianphiblrah!