Beta testing and release chicken

[Modern Angel]

This damned NDA needs to drop already. It really does.

[Ingmar]

There are like 10 other people in the beta who have made a point of saying they pre-ordered based on their feelings from the beta. I expect after the NDA drops everyone's opinions about whether or not they're going to buy/enjoy are probably going to remain about the same.

[Modern Angel]

Not precisely the point. I want to talk about specifics during my time in it and why I feel the way I do. I don't care if you buy it or not. I know you're going to buy it.

[Ingmar]

Well you hardly need the NDA drop to shout into the void, if that's what it is just going to end up being.

EDIT: Honestly I think you're just wrong about people going into this (at least mostly) with their eyes closed wishing. We all pretty much know what it is going to be, we've done this dance before. Your disconnect seems to be to be not understanding why someone would want something familiar-but-new. There's a real danger in tweaking a formula too much - look at all the bitching here about DA2, or Cataclysm.

[Velorath]

If you don't get it, that's fine.  Doesn't mean you're right.

You're not following me. Ordinarily, I'm in complete agreement. But what you're all saying is, "Yeah, I don't mind playing 80% WoW with some 20% new shiny to shift things around a bit." I'm saying (hypothetically because !) what if the game is literally a carbon copy of WoW? What if it's basically exactly the same? What if the story you're banking on is every bit as insipid and stupid as WoW's? And what if there really is a full dialogue tree for every single kill ten rats quests, which are even more common than WoW?

Because all you guys are banking on a game that may very well not exist and you're doing it with a conviction that almost beggars belief.

Yah, I did it all again in Rift, and that wasn't even good leveling content for the most part.  Some of it was Vanilla WoW bad.

What'd you do, last two months? Three? Because I'm not certain if two month fly by nighters are going to make up the cost of this monstrosity. Which is entirely my point: it's not that you dudes aren't going to have a good time in short bursts or that it's automatically awful. I am saying that you guys salivating at this are going to do the same thing you do with 99% of the games that get hyped up here, which is play for two months and then piss off to something else. And everyone else will, too.

How noble of you.  Not only are you trying to protect us from our own inability to judge whether we'll like a game or not, based on a mountain of information (including leaks and hours upon hours of gameplay videos), you're also concerned for EA that we won't stay subbed long enough for them to make their money back.

[Mosesandstick]

I don't think this point can be discussed anymore without going into NDA territory. I don't know MA's reasons, but I can understand why he wants to talk about the game.

[Modern Angel]

How noble of you.  Not only are you trying to protect us from our own inability to judge whether we'll like a game or not, based on a mountain of information (including leaks and hours upon hours of gameplay videos), you're also concerned for EA that we won't stay subbed long enough for them to make their money back.

Yes, how dare someone talk about video games on a video game discussion website?

I'm with schild.

[amiable]

How noble of you.  Not only are you trying to protect us from our own inability to judge whether we'll like a game or not, based on a mountain of information (including leaks and hours upon hours of gameplay videos), you're also concerned for EA that we won't stay subbed long enough for them to make their money back.

Yes, how dare someone talk about video games on a video game discussion website?

I'm with schild.

I've come to precisely the opposite conclusion with the same data.  So I am going to say that we are talking a matter of taste here.

[Velorath]

How noble of you.  Not only are you trying to protect us from our own inability to judge whether we'll like a game or not, based on a mountain of information (including leaks and hours upon hours of gameplay videos), you're also concerned for EA that we won't stay subbed long enough for them to make their money back.

Yes, how dare someone talk about video games on a video game discussion website?

I'm with schild.

Given that schild's opinion is that everybody looking forward to SWTOR is a retard with no taste in games (followed by some shit about hypocrisy), my anticipation to hear your thoughts is reaching new heights.  I don't object to you talking about games, but fuck off with your "you guys only think you know what you want" shit.

[Kirth]

How noble of you.  Not only are you trying to protect us from our own inability to judge whether we'll like a game or not, based on a mountain of information (including leaks and hours upon hours of gameplay videos), you're also concerned for EA that we won't stay subbed long enough for them to make their money back.

Yes, how dare someone talk about video games on a video game discussion website?

I'm with schild.

Guys guys guys....this needs to end here and now. every post we go further into this thread is one less that we could be piling on to page 300 of the real swtor thread. someone lock/merge before this gets out of hand and we have two thread to get to 300 post prior to November.





 

[amiable]

Also:

What if the story you're banking on is every bit as insipid and stupid as WoW's?

Congratulations, you have just described every Star Wars movie.  I am not playing a Star Wars MMO to have the equivalent online experience of reading The Brothers Karamazov.  I am playing a Star Wars MMO so I can swing a light saber, shoot a blaster and force choke-a-bitch with my wife and friends in an environment that does not demand a full time job equivalents worth of dedication.  

What the heck are you expecting out of this game?

[Ingmar]

Also, liking or not liking story content is about as subjective as it gets. If you listened every time someone on f13 thought something had a dumb story, you would never consume any entertainment product ever.

[Modern Angel]

but fuck off with your "you guys only think you know what you want" shit.

You obviously have some reading comprehension problems. I'm not saying you don't know what you want; that's not my damned business. I'm pointing out that some of you are 100% convinced you know what you're getting with this. You are wrong.

Re: story. Oh, I don't have expectations of a decent story. Star Wars is pretty dumb. I'm talking strictly about what everyone ELSE'S expectations are. In this very thread, folks are talking about how they're pretty excited because Bioware can tell an engaging story! That it will be meaningful! Twists and turns!

[Kirth]

but fuck off with your "you guys only think you know what you want" shit.

You obviously have some reading comprehension problems. I'm not saying you don't know what you want; that's not my damned business. I'm pointing out that some of you are 100% convinced you know what you're getting with this. You are wrong.

Re: story. Oh, I don't have expectations of a decent story. Star Wars is pretty dumb. I'm talking strictly about what everyone ELSE'S expectations are. In this very thread, folks are talking about how they're pretty excited because Bioware can tell an engaging story! That it will be meaningful! Twists and turns!

I'm confused...most people are expecting wow in space with lightsabers and they are wrong because its just going to be wow in space with lightsabers? 

[amiable]

Re: story. Oh, I don't have expectations of a decent story. Star Wars is pretty dumb. I'm talking strictly about what everyone ELSE'S expectations are. In this very thread, folks are talking about how they're pretty excited because Bioware can tell an engaging story! That it will be meaningful! Twists and turns!

Did you like KOTOR 1/2? Y/N

The answer to that question will give you a pretty good idea of whether you like bioware stories or not.  I do not think anyone in this thread was claiming otherwise.

You have no reason to believe the quality of storytelling will be substantially different for this game.  

[Lantyssa]

Also, liking or not liking story content is about as subjective as it gets. If you listened every time someone on f13 thought something had a dumb story, you would never consume any entertainment product ever.

Some of us wouldn't even get to play the same games.

[Draegan]

MA is building himself up for a time where he gets to say "I TOLD YOU SO!" but when that point comes people will not really care because people are probably going to be having a good time.

[Merusk]

If you don't get it, that's fine.  Doesn't mean you're right.

You're not following me. Ordinarily, I'm in complete agreement. But what you're all saying is, "Yeah, I don't mind playing 80% WoW with some 20% new shiny to shift things around a bit." I'm saying (hypothetically because !) what if the game is literally a carbon copy of WoW? What if it's basically exactly the same? What if the story you're banking on is every bit as insipid and stupid as WoW's? And what if there really is a full dialogue tree for every single kill ten rats quests, which are even more common than WoW?

Because all you guys are banking on a game that may very well not exist and you're doing it with a conviction that almost beggars belief.

Some people may very well be banking on that.  I'm telling you I'm flat-out not.  If it were 100% WoW with a reskin I'd be fine with that.  I said I'm not tired of the formula.  You're telling me, once again, "yes you are.. you totally are and you just don't get it man!"

No. I'm not.  I get it.  I don't care. Unless it's Cataclysm-level stupid on grouping and instance mechanics I'm fine with that.  Really.

Those looking for more than that will bitch.  However, they'd have bitched that "swg did things this way" or "UO did them this way" or fuck, even "Vanguard/ CoX/ Whatever did them this way."   I don't care, not a whit. I never enjoyed SWG combat or mechanics. UO was a non-starter for me and Van/CoX/ Whatever can take a toss because they entertained me for all of a month at best.

Meanwhile, the "bullshit" that is WoW kept me subbed for 6 years until they started sniffing up their own ass about things needing "meaning" instead of "fun."   So yeah, even if it's just a 100% clone of TBC/ WOTLK era WoW with 0 Bioware story,  I'm good with that.

[Velorath]

but fuck off with your "you guys only think you know what you want" shit.

You obviously have some reading comprehension problems. I'm not saying you don't know what you want; that's not my damned business.

You guys saying that you want to play WoW again (not a diku with WoW elements; WoW. In SPAAACCEEEEE) are not going to want to do it all over again once you actually start.

[Modern Angel]

I'm confused...most people are expecting wow in space with lightsabers and they are wrong because its just going to be wow in space with lightsabers?  

I'm beginning to bore even myself here with this circle. But here's the argument for the game:

"I like diku. I like diku in space. WoW did a lot of things right but I'm not so sure about WoW now. SWTOR looks like it's WoW with just enough changes to rekindle my interest. As well, I really like Bioware's attempts at bringing meaningful storytelling to the genre! I want some bigger zones and more expansive storytelling, where I feel like I matter. I am positive that I am getting those things."

Now, there are a few things wrong here. One, the self-assurance that THIS TIME it will be different is slightly grating. Dudes saying they played the beta and it made them pre-order gets a rousing, "YES IT IS GOING TO BE AWESOME!" The few of us stating that maybe this is a bit premature gets a hearty, "WHO THE FUCK DO YOU THINK YOU ARE TALKING THIS SHIT?" It's official forums level fanboyism.

The second, bigger thing is that the argument surmised above? The base assumptions (like a streamlined WoW, good storytelling, conversation wheel that matters, choices that change my storyline, big neat zones, etc, etc) are at least 50% wrong. You are not getting those things. They do not exist. Obviously I can't say which of those things, in my experience in beta are right and which are wrong. But some of them are wrong. Dead wrong.

That's why I want the NDA to drop. I have never seen a company say so little about their game while seeming to say so much.

For the record, I don't hate it. But, again, I can't write a post beyond "some of this is misguided" and "I was in the beta" without breaking the NDA.


edit: Pfft... this entire forum's existence is based on saying I TOLD YOU SO about something or another.

I'll also walk back the bit about you guys not wanting to do it all over again. If you're content with a 100% WoW clone all over again? If this game is that (and I'm not saying it is!), then who am I to judge?

[Kirth]

Ohhhh I think I get it now, I know your type. you just hate games and hate that anyone could find anything enjoyable about them. I'm not sure where you are deriving the level of fanboyisim but from what I've been reading the level of expectation is down to earth and not  .

[Ingmar]

Dudes saying they played the beta and it made them pre-order gets a rousing, "YES IT IS GOING TO BE AWESOME!" The few of us stating that maybe this is a bit premature gets a hearty, "WHO THE FUCK DO YOU THINK YOU ARE TALKING THIS SHIT?" It's official forums level fanboyism.

I think you're wrong about one thing here; if the numbers were reversed you would not see the interest level that you do, IMO. That is to say, if it was one guy saying THIS IS AWESOME and ten guys saying  THIS SUCKS BUT I CAN'T TELL YOU WHY I think the tenor of things in the MMO forum would be different. But you are kind of the lone voice of concern here (amongst known beta participants, anyway), other than schild - but we all know he lives in a land of absolute-black-and-white-either-it-is-the-best-thing-ever-or-it-is-total-shit opinion when it comes to games.

[Modern Angel]

That may be fair.

I also hate diku so much I am about to go play LOTRO until my eyes fall out while getting blisteringly drunk. I sure do hate MMOs!

[Kirth]

I think you're wrong about one thing here; if the numbers were reversed you would not see the interest level that you do, IMO. That is to say, if it was one guy saying THIS IS AWESOME and ten guys saying  THIS SUCKS BUT I CAN'T TELL YOU WHY I think the tenor of things in the MMO forum would be different. But you are kind of the lone voice of concern here (amongst known beta participants, anyway), other than schild - but we all know he lives in a land of absolute-black-and-white-either-it-is-the-best-thing-ever-or-it-is-total-shit opinion when it comes to games.

and despite what schild says he will play the shit out of this when it comes out, at least for a few weeks. If my other launch experiences with him are anything to go by.

[Reg]

But will he buy a lifetime subscription?

[Kirth]

That may be fair.

I also hate diku so much I am about to go play LOTRO until my eyes fall out while getting blisteringly drunk. I sure do hate MMOs!

Just your tone reminded me of an old wow guildie, was always complaining about some aspect of WOW (raiding, questing, gear, class balance, etc...) played at least 10 hours a day and was one of our highest attendance raiders. rarely I would see him in a good mood, cept after he got loot.


Isn't LOTRO that wow clone with a solid IP and a decent story progression for you character? 

[Modern Angel]

And the fact that I can still get stoked about that instead of remotely excited about SWTOR should tell you more than a 10k word dissertation ever could.

edit: Seriously, I've been comparing the two in my head constantly. The way they tell their respective stories is worthy of deconstruction.

[Lantyssa]

But will he buy a lifetime subscription?

Only after the NGE.

(Please don't ban me!  I've got two week off.)

[amiable]

I want some bigger zones and more expansive storytelling, where I feel like I matter.

Could you point to a single post where folks (on f13) who are saying positive things about this game even hinted that this was something they:

A.  Want

and

B.  Are expecting?

No offense, but I think you are projecting your expectations on the rest of us.

[Nebu]

And the fact that I can still get stoked about that instead of remotely excited about SWTOR should tell you more than a 10k word dissertation ever could.

I don't know what to think.  Lotro held my attention span for about 2 days after I hit the level cap.  If you prefer it to SWTOR, then a) we have very different taste in games or b) I shouldn't have preordered SWTOR.  

I'm going to hope that a) is correct.  

[Modern Angel]

I want some bigger zones and more expansive storytelling, where I feel like I matter.

Could you point to a single post where folks (on f13) who are saying positive things about this game even hinted that this was something they:

A.  Want

and

B.  Are expecting?

No offense, but I think you are projecting your expectations on the rest of us.

I swear I saw someone talk about how much they were looking forward to larger, more open zones than the current WoW paradigm. And the storytelling stuff is basically everywhere. As for my expectations, I had and have basically zero.

Not into quote splitting but re: LOTRO. If you're saying that LOTRO held your attention for two days after you capped how is that at odds with a general feeling that people are going to get pretty bored with it by the two month mark?

[Nebu]

Not into quote splitting but re: LOTRO. If you're saying that LOTRO held your attention for two days after you capped how is that at odds with a general feeling that people are going to get pretty bored with it by the two month mark?

I wasn't drawing any conclusions about anyone but myself.  I don't care if any of you like it or not.  Bat Country never lasts longer than a month no matter what we play.

[Modern Angel]

And we may just have different tastes in games. I'll say that I definitely preferred the way LOTRO told its main story to how SWTOR tells its story. That's fairly subjective but I think a few people might be surprised at how shallow SWTOR's technique is once the shiny wears off.

[Kirth]

And we may just have different tastes in games. I'll say that I definitely preferred the way LOTRO told its main story to how SWTOR tells its story. That's fairly subjective but I think a few people might be surprised at how shallow SWTOR's technique is once the shiny wears off.

So if if bioware set the game during the original trilogy where you were always a few steps behind the heroes you would like it?

[Velorath]

And we may just have different tastes in games. I'll say that I definitely preferred the way LOTRO told its main story to how SWTOR tells its story. That's fairly subjective but I think a few people might be surprised at how shallow SWTOR's technique is once the shiny wears off.

We've seen plenty of examples from various demos (and leaks for some of us) as to how SWTOR tells its story.  Beyond that I don't think anybody has any illusions about how Bioware tells stories.  I imagine most quests with a story in SWTOR have a dialog option or two at the start, one or two at the end, and on occasion might have a dialog sequence somewhere during the quest as well.  Regardless of what you choose, the story will proceed more or less the same way, with the most long lasting and noticeable ramifications being that later on various NPC's might be alive or dead based on your choices, but nothing that will really affect your game too much.  Maybe a combat sequence or two will play out differently based on some of the examples they've shown.  I'm basing this entirely on how Bioware had done story in KOTOR, DA, and ME.  Obviously since MMO's don't have an end, we'll generally miss out on the "here are the big choices you make at the end of the game" stuff those other games have done, but aside from that, I'd imagine that SWTOR handles story more or less the same.