Mists of Pandaria

[Simond]

If anyone needs to pick up some WoW expansions, I'd suggest that they do it now: http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/08/21/world-of-warcraft-series-75-off-until-august-27th/

Blizzard, in a move that we're certain has nothing to do with an upcoming high-profile game launch, has decided to cut, slash, and otherwise mutilate the prices for World of Warcraft and its many expansions. The World of Warcraft Battle Chest, which includes the original game and the Burning Crusade expansion, is on sale for a paltry $5 US, while the Wrath of the Lich King and Cataclysm expansions are reduced to $5 and $10, respectively.

If you have somehow managed to resist playing WoW for the past however-many years, now's the perfect time to succumb to the temptation and give the game a go, especially considering that patch 5.0 goes live in a week, and Mists of Pandaria soon after that. Surely you don't have any other plans for the 28th, right? If you wanna capitalize on the savings, though, just head on over to the Blizzard store, but do so quickly! The sale ends on August 27th.

[El Gallo]

The thing is, when it comes to WoW out of all things, this "different aesthetics reactions" argument falls short imo, because it's a game which built its very identity around deviating from standard 'race expectations' in favour of cartoony aesthetics and "y so srs, we've heard u like pop culture references" approach. As a result, this is not a matter of vague 'game already has fantasy bipeds' but rather the entire style of these fantasy bipeds in WoW is such, it makes kung fu bears fit such settings pretty much seamlessly. Whereas having these bears next to 'traditionally' rendered minotaurs or orcs could indeed generate a sense of clash like you say.

Thanks for the serious reply, and I see where you're coming from.  Here's how I see it.  Blizzard has rigidly adhered to traditional "srs bsns" archetypes for player character races.  Big green orcs, Conan-sized humans, stocky dwarves, etc.  The non-traditional elements generally come in non-graphic forms: unexpected cultures for some of the races (e.g. orcs, undead, tauren, goblins) and various lol pop culture stuff in game.  As far as the actual look of the characters (some gear aside), they are cartoons, but cartoons of srs bsns.  I think adding Kung-fu Panda, Moonlite Sparkle, or MasterShake to this lineup is a pretty big change.  There's a reason Blizzard introduced pandas as a joke and generally treated them that way in the past.   

It's not going to stop me from playing, but I groaned as soon as I heard it and I groaned when I saw the panda appear in the MoP cinematic.  I don't think I've ever groaned at a WoW visual before.  Then again, I thought the goblin dialogue and quests were a little too over-the-top, so I may just be a miserable killjoy. 

Disclaimer: I would roll a MasterShake character in a heartbeat if I could (same with MoonliteSparkle).

[Sjofn]

Gnomes = srs bsns

There is nothing about the pandaren that was particularly out of step with the other races goofy-wise when I played around with them in the beta, except your own weird baggage about them.

[Merusk]

Each area has a level range.  You're de-leveled to the top of the range automatically so the content poses at least a little challenge.  You also get xp and level-appropriate drops.  In PvP everyone is 80.

Level still determines traits known and has an effect on stats an equipment, but it's not quite the end-all be-all.

Huh. So it's like auto-sidekicking.  At first I was trying to wrap my head-around why you'd want that instead of the mob adjusting to your level, but it makes grouping with a much wider range viable, and - as you say - means old content isn't unused.  You just hop to the zones you want when leveling and maybe pick-up others down the road when bored.

 Kinda nifty, I hope others adopt it.

[Zetor]

Yep, it's pretty much what's already in COH missions. RIFT has also implemented this a few patches ago in its Instant Adventures and when running through old dungeons (only through the dungeon finder tool, though). EQ2/RIFT/AOC all have mentoring, so the foundations for such a system isn't anathema to DIKU by itself.

But like I posted earlier, WOW is Different™.

[Hutch]

Implementing a system like that can really go against the grain of your existing architecture, though. Games like CoH and EQ2 were built with the level/power scaling capabilities in mind, and if you don't do that, adding it on later can be a much larger effort, relatively speaking.

Which is not to say they can't do it. Clearly, they're able to put massive amounts of time and effort into something, once they put their minds to it. I'm thinking here of the revamp of the 1-60 areas of Azeroth. They didn't just reorganize the quests; they also had to pretty up the world so that you could fly over it.

On the other hand, we have to be careful what we wish for. Look at the transmog system. Having played CoH and LotRO, I didn't get why Blizzard took so long to steal those games' uniform/wardrobe systems. I mean, really? I can't have a cosmetic outfit? But look at how clunky and relatively inflexible the transmog system is. It's almost like their system programmers didn't understand what was being asked of them.

[luckton]

Implementing a system like that can really go against the grain of your existing architecture, though. Games like CoH and EQ2 were built with the level/power scaling capabilities in mind, and if you don't do that, adding it on later can be a much larger effort, relatively speaking.

Which is not to say they can't do it. Clearly, they're able to put massive amounts of time and effort into something, once they put their minds to it. I'm thinking here of the revamp of the 1-60 areas of Azeroth. They didn't just reorganize the quests; they also had to pretty up the world so that you could fly over it.

On the other hand, we have to be careful what we wish for. Look at the transmog system. Having played CoH and LotRO, I didn't get why Blizzard took so long to steal those games' uniform/wardrobe systems. I mean, really? I can't have a cosmetic outfit? But look at how clunky and relatively inflexible the transmog system is. It's almost like their system programmers didn't understand what was being asked of them.

Or their art/design teams have a lot more sway than people think.

[Azazel]

Is shit like "Main Hand/One Hand" being incompatible them being douchebags, or is it legacy coding issues (like the main bag being stuck at 16 slots?)

[Merusk]

I'll bet it's a simple coding issue due to how it looks-up item types.  "One hand != Main Hand :: No Transmog!"

They can override it like they do for Hunter's ranged weapons, though, so no idea why they don't.

[Ingmar]

I believe the general idea is that because weapons classed as 'main hand' are almost always caster weapons, it keeps melee type guys from running around looking like they're using caster weapons, and vice-versa. I don't really have a guess as to why they want to stop that (target ID in PVP maybe?) but I'm pretty sure that's the root of it.

[Simond]

Is shit like "Main Hand/One Hand" being incompatible them being douchebags, or is it legacy coding issues (like the main bag being stuck at 16 slots?)

I think that's being fixed in next week's patch.

[Lantyssa]

Since they did away with weapon skills, I'm not sure what it matters as long as it keeps the 1-h or 2-h designation, and weapon type for any skills dependent upon that.  But does it really matter if my sword looks like an axe, a dagger, a stick, or a chicken leg?

[Ingmar]

Pretty sure the chicken legs and fish and such are separately flagged as no-trans. FOR GOOD REASON. 

[cmlancas]

Since they did away with weapon skills, I'm not sure what it matters as long as it keeps the 1-h or 2-h designation, and weapon type for any skills dependent upon that.  But does it really matter if my sword looks like an axe, a dagger, a stick, or a chicken leg?

They're not too keen on having one class specifically look like another for world pvp reasons.  Also, having fish tmoggable inevitably results in a bunch of rogues stun locking you with a grouper.   

[Nevermore]

Well, we certainly wouldn't want anything silly in such a serious business game. 

[Ingmar]

Well, as we've seen from El Gallo's post everyone has their line where the silly just becomes too much. For me it would be everyone running around with fish tanking things in their Easter dresses (as I am sure I've said a million times.)

[Merusk]

I believe the general idea is that because weapons classed as 'main hand' are almost always caster weapons, it keeps melee type guys from running around looking like they're using caster weapons, and vice-versa. I don't really have a guess as to why they want to stop that (target ID in PVP maybe?) but I'm pretty sure that's the root of it.

There's several rogue daggers and *I think* some dual-wield swords flagged as Main-Hand so that can't be it.  It's really just a silly flagging system for one handed weapons.   How many main-handers have you ever said "dude, this would be great offhand!"

[Ingmar]

Hardly any, but I've always been Titan's Grip when dual wielding. I did a search on Wowhead for mainhand daggers (with no spell power or intellect) and came up with very, very few:

http://www.wowhead.com/items=2?filter=qu=2:3:4:5:6:7;sl=21;ty=15;cr=123:23;crs=3:3;crv=0:0

If I add back in caster weapons, the number goes up to 218, from 4.

Fist weapons is another story but I think they have to do that for those because of the graphics so that probably helps with transmutes not looking retarded too.

[Rokal]

I believe the general idea is that because weapons classed as 'main hand' are almost always caster weapons, it keeps melee type guys from running around looking like they're using caster weapons, and vice-versa. I don't really have a guess as to why they want to stop that (target ID in PVP maybe?) but I'm pretty sure that's the root of it.

There's several rogue daggers and *I think* some dual-wield swords flagged as Main-Hand so that can't be it.  It's really just a silly flagging system for one handed weapons.   How many main-handers have you ever said "dude, this would be great offhand!"

There was a BoP 1H sword that dropped from trash in Dragon Soul like this.

http://www.wowhead.com/item=78878/spine-of-the-thousand-cuts

The item would have been perfect for a tank with transmog. Problem was, the sword was set to main-hand only. Further compounding the problem, it was an agi sword in a tier where it was very easy to get superior agi rogue weapons through the legendary quest line. The item served no purpose for the only class that could use it, and it couldn't even be used for transmog due to the dumb restriction.

As for the 'caster weapons' thing, there are no restrictions on caster shields or most caster armor. If my rogue wants to look like a caster, there are dozens of druid set recolors or look-alike items to pick from. My warrior can wear paladin armor or a shaman shield, so why can't she wear a weapon that *might* look like a caster weapon?

It's a stupid restriction, and one I'd hoped they would have done away with during the MoP beta.

[Ingmar]

I'm not defending it, just speculating on the 'why'.

[Rokal]

I'm not defending it, just speculating on the 'why'.

I wasn't saying you were. I believe you're correct about the 'why'. I'm saying that their reasoning falls apart when you look at what is already allowed in-game.

[Merusk]

Ah ha, I see where I'm confused now.   I could have sworn the rogue PVP daggers were main hand/ one hand but WoWhead says no.  What I'm remembering is daggers flagged as offhand/ onehand for rogues.  Which.. makes even less sense to have caster daggers flagged as main hand since they can't dual-wield.  

Do rogue weaps run in to the same problem with this?  I've never tried transmuting my rogue's daggers to see.

[Ingmar]

Caster daggers/maces all got flagged as main hand back when there was this kind of silly elemental build that would go up in enhance to get dual wielding and run around with giant +spellpower boosts, I believe.

[Sjofn]

Can't make offhand into main hand, but one hand to one hand is fine, and since pretty much all the daggers I wanted to transmute were one handed, it didn't really come up.

In fact, the only time it came up for me was when I wanted to transmute my paladin's tanking weapon. The mace model I really, really like is apparently a caster mace, so it was a MAIN HAND ONLY OMG model, and my tanking weapon was a one hand.  

[luckton]

For casters, keep in mind that, in addition to your current weapon skills, wands are being turned into primary weapons for you lot, stats and everything to be on-par with one-handed stuffs.  And there are some pretty swank looking wands out there.

[Merusk]

Yeah but I'm irritated that my Priest won't be able to run around with Benediction anymore.

[Zetor]

Terestian's Strangestaff nooooooo

[Ingmar]

Are they getting rid of staves?

[SurfD]

Caster daggers/maces all got flagged as main hand back when there was this kind of silly elemental build that would go up in enhance to get dual wielding and run around with giant +spellpower boosts, I believe.

Yeah, this is where that came from.  Dual Wielding Ele Shaman.  I think they also did it because at one point (way back when) dual wielding Spellpower Weapons as an Enhance Shaman was actually better then Dual Wielding Agi weapons due to the sheer amount of Enhance damage that is done through spells, and the old formulas that let Enhance double dip from both Spellpower and Agility for increased Spell Damage.

[Rokal]

Are they getting rid of staves?

I'm also confused. Staves were usable on the beta, I don't see any reason why you'd have to stop using Benediction. Are they removing staves from item tables in 90 content or something?

[luckton]

Are they getting rid of staves?

I'm also confused. Staves were usable on the beta, I don't see any reason why you'd have to stop using Benediction. Are they removing staves from item tables in 90 content or something?

No, they are not.  I think the fear comes from lack of proper communication of the weapon system change + Monk entering the fray and competing with staff users for AGI and INT staffs.

[cmlancas]

The item would have been perfect for a tank with transmog. Problem was, the sword was set to main-hand only. Further compounding the problem, it was an agi sword in a tier where it was very easy to get superior agi rogue weapons through the legendary quest line. The item served no purpose for the only class that could use it, and it couldn't even be used for transmog due to the dumb restriction.

Nerd police says that this sword was BIS until you hit the end legendary daggers if you were combat. 

I do hate the main hand thing though.  Double flaming swordy things from FL (the int caster sword) would be awesome.

[Rokal]

No, they are not.  I think the fear comes from lack of proper communication of the weapon system change + Monk entering the fray and competing with staff users for AGI and INT staffs.

I believe Windwalker and Brewmaster monks prefer 1H weapons atm due to more procs on their passives, but that could change by the time MoP rolls out (if it hasn't already changed). You could see Mistweaver monks prefering 1H weapons for smaller and more consistent heals off Blackout Kick auto-attack heals, but it seems like dps healing for Mistweavers will be impractical for anything except easy content.

Nerd police says that this sword was BIS until you hit the end legendary daggers if you were combat. 

Even when you consider the proc from the earlier steps of the legendary? I actually heard that the axe off Madness was best for combat, but only before you finished the daggers.

[luckton]

No, they are not.  I think the fear comes from lack of proper communication of the weapon system change + Monk entering the fray and competing with staff users for AGI and INT staffs.

I believe Windwalker and Brewmaster monks prefer 1H weapons atm due to more procs on their passives, but that could change by the time MoP rolls out (if it hasn't already changed). You could see Mistweaver monks prefering 1H weapons for smaller and more consistent heals off Blackout Kick auto-attack heals, but it seems like dps healing for Mistweavers will be impractical for anything except easy content.

Only Windwalkers.  Brewmasters get no fancy procs from hitting more frequently, and none of the Brew special skills use the off-hand, just main hand for damage calculations.  Windwalker does have skills that use main + off hand damage.

Add to that the 2-hand passive that Brew 'does' get for 40% melee haste, and there's no argument.  If anything, they're making the same mistake they made with DKs; just because you CAN dual wield doesn't mean it's viable or that you're supposed to.  Just lock down the DW skill to Frost and Windwalkers already.  They didn't have a problem with doing this to Shamans.

[Rokal]

Only Windwalkers.  Brewmasters get no fancy procs from hitting more frequently, and none of the Brew special skills use the off-hand, just main hand for damage calculations.

http://mop.wowhead.com/spell=128938

It's for more stacks of Elusive Brew, their dodge cooldown.

Edit:

http://mop.wowhead.com/spell=124502 Gift of the Ox too.