Mists of Pandaria

[SurfD]

So the bottom line I'm seeing with this is:

1) Grinding Lucky Charms will be pretty much a requirement.
2) Gearing up offspecs will be a serious PITA.
3) Dropout rates in LFR will increase massively because nobody will give a fuck about valor.

 

Cant really comment on item 1, but I am not seeing exactly where 2 and 3 come from.

For 2, gearing up your offspec is already a PITA in LFR / LFD simply because everyone else is hitting need on everything they can anyway (though more in LFR then LFD).  It will simply mean that to effectively gear your OS, you queue as your OS or you raid with an actual group, and not LFR. 

As to 3, I dont really see this changing much, since atm you only get valor for killing the end boss.  People who want loot will still queue and kill the bosses they need.  People who only want valor will take whateer pops, go through to the end boss call it done.  People who dont care about valor will just drop after they get up to whatever boss drops the loot they wanted.  Not like you wont have plenty of people cycling through the system to field replacements.

[Wolf]

I'm honestly very unhappy with where they're starting to head. Right now, we raid 7 hours a week. With another 1-1,5 I can do all the rest of the stuff I _need_ to, to have my character at the efficiency level it needs to be when raiding. If I have to do the charms (aka log in daily to do scenarios, and/or dailies) and cap valor outside of raids (since raids won't cap you) I have to increase my online time quite a bit. Maybe even to something like 13-14 hours a week. That's an issue.

I don't get why they're worried I only login to raid? I'm paying, am I not? Why do they want me to login every day? I thought the last of this died when they let me cap valor from dungeons in a single day?

[Ironwood]

It's much easier to quit if you only log in once a day.

Think of it as a guy only smoking a cigarette once a month.  Will he really miss it vs the guy on 3 packs a day ?

[Miasma]

The valor idea is pretty terrible.  I'm in a casual raid group and most people just don't bother capping valor which means most will always be at a lower ilvl than they could be so we won't beat bosses.  At least with valor you were guaranteed something every second week, it keeps people playing.  I also look forward to the drama when someone who caps valor every week and has fully upgraded loot isn't allowed to roll on new gear because it would be a bigger improvement for the 'slacker' who hasn't upgraded anything.  They already made is so that you can't get tier pieces off of the valor vendor, that should have been all they needed to do, but no, they're going full retard.

I don't know why blizzard always does at least one thing that is jaw droppingly stupid every time.

[Ironwood]

 isn't allowed to roll on new gear

Um ?  Have you read it all yet ?

[Lakov_Sanite]

He's talking about non LFR where raiding guilds will presumably still be forced to delegate who gets what loot when the bosses drop it.

[luckton]

It's not Blizzard's job to dictate how your personal guild of friends/like-minded individuals conducts their shit when it comes to loot distro.  As far as the new loot distro for LFR goes, it sounds like it's perfect for LFR.  It reduces, if not eliminates any potential drama from loot ninjas and such, which helps Bliz's bottom line of reducing CSR tickets, along with keeping random random.  If they push this to all raids, regardless of LFR, I would hope it would be an option that's controllable by the raid leader (a la Master Looter, Round Robin, etc.)

Edit: As for the bonus rolls you can get from faction grinding; did you miss the word 'bonus' there?  Nobody said you had to do it, but if you did, you may get a reward.  It's that whole time + effort = reward thing.

As for Valor points, the jury is still out.  I understand what he's saying by Valor being a crutch.  It's the same argument one can make for current day soccer moms who complain that just because Jimmy lost the game doesn't mean he shouldn't get a trophy.  It sounds like they're turning Valor into a sort of "XP for gear".  Too early to say how it'll work exactly since nothing is really set in stone yet.

[Paelos]

As for Valor points, the jury is still out.  I understand what he's saying by Valor being a crutch.  It's the same argument one can make for current day soccer moms who complain that just because Jimmy lost the game doesn't mean he shouldn't get a trophy.

No it's not. Jimmy's team won the tournament, but as it turns out they only bought two trophies for the team, so now you have to decide who gets them. Maybe if you win the tournament next week, you'll get one of those two trophies. That's how dumb going back to RNG loot systems are as the main distribution source. Valor was never a crutch. It was a means to reward everyone for winning, regardless of drops. People were happy to see bosses die because they knew that at least they would get their step closer to their set piece even without a drop.

The way the Valor system reads to me now is a dumbed down version of ToA's leveling your pants. That was NOT POPULAR.

[Lakov_Sanite]

It gets even dumber when you realize they won't allow you to level your LFR pants as much as your regular or heroic pants.

They way it reads it'll be something like this:

Location---Base level---Max valor level.
LFR---1---25
Regular---20---50
Heroic---45---75

So that whichever tier you get once upgraded is just over the level of  a non-upgraded piece of the next tier.

[Ironwood]

He's talking about non LFR where raiding guilds will presumably still be forced to delegate who gets what loot when the bosses drop it.

Same as it ever was.

[luckton]

It gets even dumber when you realize they won't allow you to level your LFR pants as much as your regular or heroic pants.

They way it reads it'll be something like this:

Location---Base level---Max valor level.
LFR---1---25
Regular---20---50
Heroic---45---75

So that whichever tier you get once upgraded is just over the level of  a non-upgraded piece of the next tier.

Does this not keep in line with the current layout of things?

Difficulty
Easiest <-LFR------Normal------Heroic->Hardest

Risk, effort, and time.  You get rewarded, in quantity and quality, for how much you commit those things to the game.  That rule has never changed.  The amounts and awesomeness of the rewards may have shifted over the years, but the risk, effort, and time have always been constant.  I know that I will never in a thousand years ever be able to put my hands on a Legendary item (or at least one that isn't three-four expansion packs old  ), because I don't have the ability to commit the time and effort needed to acquire one.  I still get a thrill out of getting what loot I can, and enjoying the content.  I do not ever expect to get Heroic-level items without being able to commit to Heroic-level effort, time, and risk.

These MoP changes are simply another shift of the quantity and quality of rewards that they've done with every expansion.  The risk, effort, and time needed will stay the same.

[Paelos]

Quantity and quality are all that matters, numbnuts. Nobody takes any risk or effort in this game. It's all a basis of time.

This isn't a shift. This is removing an avenue for loot and replacing it with leveling your loot. You probably weren't around for the last time this was tried in DAOC, but it basically killed that game.

[Sjofn]

Not that I think leveling one's pants is awesome, but a big part of the reason it was so loathed in DAoC was because it was trying to force a bunch of PvPers to do a bunch of shitty PvE they didn't want to do.

[luckton]

Not that I think leveling one's pants is awesome, but a big part of the reason it was so loathed in DAoC was because it was trying to force a bunch of PvPers to do a bunch of shitty PvE they didn't want to do.

This.  DAoC was about PvP with a decent side of PvE.  ToA was essentially patching in Everquest 1.0 into a game that succeeded by NOT doing everything that EQ did (at the very least not all the bad things).  Add on that the Trials themselves were basically Heroic-mode on steroids and that burned out people PDQ. 

[Paelos]

The main problem is that it will make running heroic dungeons feel useless, which will decrease participation. The whole purpose of the valor system was to increase dungeon running and increase retention.

They don't need to scrap the system in place, they need to improve the economics of the system. That's harder though, so we get levelling our pants instead.

[Ivanneth]

Regarding LFR: About how long does it take for an average group to finish a raid currently?

Aspects of MoP have me seriously considering resubscribing, and as a former raider turned very casual (I refuse to make any time commitments to a game) I like the idea of raids that I can join and leave at will without pissing anyone off. However, if raids are still 4-6 hour deals then I know I'd get frustrated about never seeing certain bosses because at most I can play uninterrupted for ~2 hours.

Edit to clarify: The last time I raided was back in Vanilla, so that's where I get the 4-6 hour time frame from. I have no idea how long raids last these days.

[Rokal]

The main problem is that it will make running heroic dungeons feel useless, which will decrease participation. The whole purpose of the valor system was to increase dungeon running and increase retention.

They don't need to scrap the system in place, they need to improve the economics of the system. That's harder though, so we get levelling our pants instead.

Why would it make running heroic dungeons useless? If anything, heroic dungeons should see more participation because getting to the valor cap every week benefits you even if you're in a heroic raiding guild. Everybody will want to cap valor to upgrade whatever gear they're using. I wouldn't be surprised if you could buy Charms with Valor too.

Regarding LFR: About how long does it take for an average group to finish a raid currently?

I'd guess they're about an 60-90 minutes long per each wing of 4 bosses, at least for Dragon Soul.

[Fabricated]

I really don't get the Valor ilvl-boost thing since while it's not that different than the gear-buying mechanism if you run LFR (upgrading for lower level epics to higher level epics) it removes the illusion of progress at the very least.

Great, my helm of slaying now has 40 more strength and stamina and a bit more crit. I don't get a new model, a new color shade, or anything other than stats really for the valor grind. I guess they're expecting people to still transmog everything to old armor sets.

[luckton]

I don't get a new model, a new color shade, or anything other than stats really for the valor grind. I guess they're expecting people to still transmog everything to old armor sets.

I read all that as: "Hey, Bliz has an excuse to either fire or re-assign their artists to more pressing tasks."

[Lakov_Sanite]

People wanted an appearance tab forever, now they have one and the line is "blizzard is being lazy"

I mean, they could be lazy too but if 80% of the playerbase won't even use new models there is no reason to design as many set per tier, especially not the class based ones. I for one would much rather quality over quantity.

[luckton]

They could just as easily make whatever the current tier set of gear is be un-transmoggable, but I doubt it would happen.

[Rokal]

I really don't get the Valor ilvl-boost thing since while it's not that different than the gear-buying mechanism if you run LFR (upgrading for lower level epics to higher level epics) it removes the illusion of progress at the very least.

Great, my helm of slaying now has 40 more strength and stamina and a bit more crit. I don't get a new model, a new color shade, or anything other than stats really for the valor grind. I guess they're expecting people to still transmog everything to old armor sets.

I disagree. There isn't an illusion of progress: there is very measurable progress. Even though the system sounds grindy, it's got the same benefits as an AA system. You'll always be able to feel like you are slowly progressing your character even if you don't win any loot or you're doing dailies for a faction you don't need rep from. If I run LFR Mantis Palace (or whatever) I might get enough valor points to upgrade my shoulders 1 ilvl even if Mantis Palace came out a year ago and I'm wearing much better gear.

We're still missing out on important details. What is the valor cost to upgrade an item? Does the cost increase each time you do it? Does upgrading a blue dungeon piece of gear 1 ilvl cost the same as upgrading a piece of heroic raid loot? Whether this system is a success or not is going to hinge on cost balance.

I also think it's ironic that players are complaining about blizzard artists being lazy when this expansion looks like it's going to have way more cosmetic gear and mounts than any previous expansion. Providing fluff items that just look cool or fun is a higher priority than it ever has been before.

[Lakov_Sanite]

They could just as easily make whatever the current tier set of gear is be un-transmoggable, but I doubt it would happen.

Not a facepalm big enough.

[Ingmar]

This is nothing at all like leveling your pants in DAOC. That had you doing stuff you wouldn't otherwise do to level items that you couldn't get any other way. This is just doing the same stuff you were doing anyway, to level stuff you would be getting anyway.

If anything I like it better than spending the valor on new gear because you don't have to regem/enchant your shit as often.

[FieryBalrog]

One of the problems with the current valor system is it does make drops from the boss a lot less exciting.

I'm basically valored out on my main, except for one ring. I have the points to get that ring, but that basically means any ring drop from normal DS is just a sidegrade and almost worthless.

If a helm or chest token for priests drops, since I already have the valor gear for that slot, I'm looking at rolling need vs other people (who may be looking at a bigger upgrade) in order to just get a set bonus. Even the artwork is the same. Which makes me feel kinda shitty whether or not I roll.

At the same time, I can't say upgrading my pants with valor sounds particularly exciting.

[Rokal]

At the same time, I can't say upgrading my pants with valor sounds particularly exciting.

That's the bigger problem here. They're replacing one valor implementation that makes the game less interesting with another valor system that makes the game less interesting. Simply increasing the ilvl of gear just feels so artificial and gamey.

In TERA's weapon/armor upgrade system, increasing the quality of the gear you are using unlocks extra bonuses on that gear in addition to increasing the stats. Because the game is Korean, upgrading your gear also has a chance to fail and de-level your gear instead. Aside that awful mechanic, I think the upgrading system is actually pretty fun. Instead of just increasing the baseline stats on gear by small amounts, they could make it so that reaching the max ilvl possible on that gear unlocks a little extra perk. Maybe prot warrior shoulders with Mastery and Dodge at ilvl 450 (base) also get a bonus to Parry when they hit the max ilvl of 460, etc.

[Lakov_Sanite]

If weapons and armor literally got rid of the ilvl and just had exp bars that you "levelled" through valor, it''d do awesome. People love thier ding grats

[Ivanneth]

I'd guess they're about an 60-90 minutes long per each wing of 4 bosses, at least for Dragon Soul.

Well that's encouraging. Thanks!

[Zetor]

If weapons and armor literally got rid of the ilvl and just had exp bars that you "levelled" through valor, it''d do awesome. People love thier ding grats

So something like the lotro Legendary Items system? Could work, 'cept people may be too indoctrinated into the "I switch my weapon every week" thing. Plus enchanters/jewelers would throw fits.

[Nevermore]

I'll laugh so hard if applying a charm thing wipes out the gems/enchant on the item it's applied to.   

[Rokal]

If weapons and armor literally got rid of the ilvl and just had exp bars that you "levelled" through valor, it''d do awesome. People love thier ding grats

ilvl does stand for Item Level, so maybe they will flesh out the UI to make the system less ridiculous. I don't know, they had the opportunity to do this with reforging and they didn't do it. As a result, reforging works fine but it feels really artificial.

I'll laugh so hard if applying a charm thing wipes out the gems/enchant on the item it's applied to.   

Charms just give you a chance at extra loot on a boss, they don't do anything to the items you already have.

[Nevermore]

Ok, whatever the thing is that bumps up the ilevel of an item is called.  I admit I'm not really following all this closely, but it did catch my attention because of the faint whiff of ToA.  I say faint because the big problem in DAoC was the pve was terrible, so having to level items in that game was orders of magnitude worse than in WoW.

[luckton]

I'll try and tl;dr GC's post more accurately.

For LFR in MoP
- On boss kill, game randomly picks 2-5 people.
- Those 2-5 people get a piece of loot that fits their class and active spec.
- The loot they get is No-Trade.
- Essentially, it's now Soviet WoW; game is looting you!

Bonus Rolls
- There's a faction in MoP that, if you grind them regularly, you can buy a Fortune Charm
- If you have a Fortune Charm in your inventory when a boss dies, you can spend it on a "bonus roll" for a chance at getting a class/spec equipment piece from the boss' table.
- If you fail the roll, you still get a goodie bag of consumable and coin.

Valor
- Now a type of XP for gear.
- Valor gear vendors 'may' be getting the ax.
- Valor will primarily be gotten from 5-man dungeons/challenge modes and scenarios.

[Soulflame]

That is such a stupid idea, although I'm glad Blizzard is considering it.  I had some small measure of desire to play a healer that hits things to heal people, but then Blizzard decided that pants leveling is smart.

[Ginaz]

That is such a stupid idea, although I'm glad Blizzard is considering it.  I had some small measure of desire to play a healer that hits things to heal people, but then Blizzard decided that pants leveling is smart.

Thats why I enjoyed the Warrior Priest in Warhammer.  You healed, but you needed to be doing damage to do it.  I actually liked most of the classes in WH and how they were designed and played.  Too bad the rest of the game wasn't that great.