DOTA2

[jakonovski]

Got a key, thanks everyone!

Any advice for someone who's played lots of LoL but no Dota ever?

[Fordel]

You're going to probably die way more then you're used too. 

[Bann]

Dont get freaked out about denying/denied. Mana on most heroes early felt alot more precious to me in Dota 2 than LoL. clicking a target than rapidly hitting your "s" key in succession is how people are doing that stuttery thing to get the last hit. If you want to stack a camp in the jungle, pull it at xx:51 exactly - these respawn at xx:00 as long as nothing is in sight. Dont be afraid of learning items with actives - you need to get comfy using these to be effective with most characters.

Look me (and other f13 people) up for games! Its more fun when you like the people on your team.

[Lounge]

This is one of the better guides for new players...

http://www.purgegamers.com/welcome-to-dota-you-suck

[ezrast]

Any advice for someone who's played lots of LoL but no Dota ever?

As someone who's played lots of LoL and only a little DotA:

Coming to DotA from LoL the whole thing feels really clunky, which is partially the interface but partially just how the game is designed. Creep block is more severe, and it takes time to turn in place (so attacking an opponent you are fleeing from is a bad idea) so even moving around is going to feel weird for a while. However, avoiding death in DotA is less about "outplaying" your opponent and more about not being in the wrong place at the wrong time, so if you know how to watch your minimap and not extend too far past the river you might find yourself dying less than you expect. The main thing is knowing that "too far past the river" varies wildly from game to game depending on how many of your opponents have bullshit that kills you from a screen and a half away.

Always start with a health pot and a tango. Buy lots of cheap items to start even if you're going to sell them later; the early stat boosts are worth it. Don't start with boots, especially if you're in a side lane since they have their own shops that sell boots right there.

[Malakili]

Got a key, thanks everyone!

Any advice for someone who's played lots of LoL but no Dota ever?

http://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/otygb/switching_from_league_of_legends_what_should_i/

[Thrawn]

That's a pretty good post to follow.  The only thing I think it missed that I had a hard time adjusting to was how different spells are.  In LoL you just spam your spell every time it's on cool down almost and it chips away at the enemy bit by bit and you trade back and forth.  In DotA spells cost a lot more in regards to what % of your mana pool they use, but they are also matter much more.  Stuns are much longer with less ways to reduce how effective they are and spells do a lot more damage, BUT they also don't scale to late game as well since their is no +magic power stat to stack similar to League.

I think the thing I found the oddest is that when I switched from LoL to DotA I had played thousands of games of League and had never played DotA before.  I had the same weird things to get used to as anyone else, I'm sure you could find a post of me saying something like "I'll never play DotA because denial is such a bad mechanic".  But now after playing a few hundred games of DotA I played a game of League recently and it felt even weirder going back.  The controls felt slow and unresponsive, the UI felt terrible, not being able to deny or having gold loss on death didn't seem to make sense and the graphics were an eye sore.  I'm sure in time I could readjust but really going from LoL to DotA felt like I was adjusting to a different game, but trying to go from DotA back to LoL just felt like I was playing a worse game.

[Rasix]

Got a key, thanks everyone!

Any advice for someone who's played lots of LoL but no Dota ever?

Budget about 25-30 minutes more per game.  They typically run longer.

Observe some games but don't expect yours to look anything like it.

Don't over extend. You will die.

You'll get used to the movement.  Yes, it does feel different at first.

Deny won't matter much when you start.  Don't freak out over it.  Denying towers when/if you can.

Have fun.  Game's a bit quirkier.

[Falconeer]

A weird/noob question: me and some friends hated what (to us) seemed to be an inherent problem of the MOBA games. Meaning, the team that starts winning early in the game usually (not always, but bear with me) ends up winning even more later on due to how power seems to scale. In short, the rich gets richer. If you disagree, since I am no expert, I'd sincerely love to hear about it.

If you somewhat agree, I'd like to hear if and how is DOTA 2 more of the same in this regard, or is there anything that makes games a little more balanced in the long run, and if there's more room for comebacks than (... just according to me...) in HoN and LoL.

[HaemishM]

Comebacks in LOL are rare, especially if you get an AFK/leaver or have a troll. They CAN happen, but not often. DOTA 2 - what few games I've played, I haven't seen a lot of comebacks happen.

[pxib]

That's partially inherent and partially by design. The inherent part is easy: The rich get richer because they can afford to take more risks without worrying about falling behind. As they get more confident, their opponents (who can less and less afford risks) get LESS confident... and those profitable risks become less risky for the former and MORE risky for the latter. This just snowballs at both ends, with or without design intent.

As such, when a team is guaranteed to lose, it's best that they either lose quickly or remain unaware of their disadvantage. Ignorance is impossible and counterproductive in arena fights, so MOBAs tend to lean on the balance as the game progresses in order to accelerate the inevitable. Unfortunately, while slogging through a long obvious loss is just torture, an ideal game is a long, hard fought battle between equals. As such it's important to implement methods whereby an underdog can recover if a few early risks go poorly... which tend to extend unpleasant battles where one side is just going to get kicked in the pants for 20 minutes.

How various multiplayer games deal with this unstable equilibrium determines how the competition feels when the sides are less than equally matched. Which is to say: pretty much all the time.

[Falconeer]

The linked article seems to do a great effort in making its point all over the known universe. After reading it, and disagreeing with various examples, I can still say that I feel uncomfortable with the way LoL seems to punish early mistakes (or reward early successes) with an almost guaranteed loss (win). In a game where you commit about 45 minutes of your time for a single match, having it often decided in the first 10 minutes makes me question the design.

Again, not making a real strong point here. Just sharing my noob experience, why it bothered me more than in other competitive games, and hoping to read arguments against it that will make me reconsider.

My problem is that I do not like that much competitive games where the concept of "comeback" is buried by the game design (Which does not make them bad games at all, it just makes them games that are not for me) so I was trying to make sure if this was the case here too.

[Thrawn]

My personal experience has been while the team that gets up in DotA is still more likely to win, comebacks happen MUCH more often than in League.  This is usually the biggest argument as to why DotA has no surrender options, in League you usually know at 20 minutes who is going to win while it can often still go either way in DotA.

[Fordel]

Dota games can easily snowball out of control, but if you can hang on and keep a semblance of farm going, the game will reach a point where one team fight can undo like 30 minutes of advantage and just equalize everything again.


You also have times when certain Team comps are ridiculously strong early game, but just drop off late. So they'll have a huge kill lead at first, but ultimately fail because they couldn't stop the Anti-Mage from farming.

[Rasix]

Lack of ability scaling means the entire situation won't get too out of control.  This makes casters very different end game.

From my less than extensive knowledge of DOTA, the only really equivalent to the AP carry would be Tiny, but then he destroys you with his right clicking as well late game.  Wisp + Tiny combo is fun to watch.

[Fordel]

I want to say Dota Hard Carries get way crazier then LoL ones? But I don't really follow LoL at all.

[ezrast]

Part of the justification for the snowball effect is that it allows the devs to design around "early game" and "late game" compositions. A team of strong early game heroes relies on generating lots of snowball just to survive against a harder-carrying late-game team, whose goal is going to be to turtle until their scaling wins the game for them. This adds some interesting asymmetry and long-term strategy to the game, although whether this is worth the drawbacks is highly debated.

[Flinky]

Raxing (destroying a creep generator in a base) is also permanent in DotA as opposed to the timer in LoL.

In fact, I think creep in general play a far more vital role in DotA than LoL.

[Lounge]

A significant majority of what you might assume is a comeback is really just a team with a weak earlygame / strong lategame against an early game team.  If the early game team cannot push and end then its very likely against certain weak early heros (spectre, void, antimage, phantom assassin, etc) that you're going to lose.  I haven't played enough LOL to know if they have hero's who are intentionally weak early and strong late.

[Malakili]

A significant majority of what you might assume is a comeback is really just a team with a weak earlygame / strong lategame against an early game team.  If the early game team cannot push and end then its very likely against certain weak early heros (spectre, void, antimage, phantom assassin, etc) that you're going to lose.  I haven't played enough LOL to know if they have hero's who are intentionally weak early and strong late.

LoL has something similar.  However, the meta game is stricter in LoL, and almost every team brings 1 strong late game champion and it is substantially more difficult to actually play a early-game team composition successfully.

[Kail]

This is one of the better guides for new players...

http://www.purgegamers.com/welcome-to-dota-you-suck

Went over that, thanks, most of it makes a lot of sense.  I've still got a few newbie questions though if anyone's got the time:

1) The guide mentions that you should play support characters, ok, fine, I like support characters... but what exactly do they do in Dota?  In LoL you're generally poking at your opponents and keeping your carry alive with spells, in this game, you can't cast more than three or so spells before you head back.  I assume you're not supposed to last hit (not that I have much choice, given last hitting seems way harder than it is in LoL) so is there anything to do other than stand there drinking tea?  Because there is a looooot of farming in this game, and being a walking aura for ten minutes is not exactly engaging gameplay.

2) So when you level, you can rank up attributes instead of skills, yes?  When do you generally do this, or is it very hero dependent?  I noticed that I have a ton of trouble last hitting early on, and I'm not sure if I should be pouring points into attributes or maxing every skill first or what.  Are there heroes that you don't get all their skills on, generally, or do you try to max everything if you can?

3) Healing seems like a pain... You have to blow a TP scroll to get back to base, sit there while your bar goes up, and then another to get back to the front lines... Do people generally just bring a backpack full of potions or something?  Because I'm blowing a fortune on these damn scrolls.

[Ingmar]

Early on you use those tree branch things to grab a little healing so you can stay out there longer, they're pretty cheap. On the skill build vs. stat thing, it really varies by hero. On *most* of them you tend to level skills first and only take stats when you can't take anything else, but I know I've seen some strategies where you ignore a given skill until later or whatever and so you'd be taking stats in its place.

[Malakili]

This is one of the better guides for new players...

http://www.purgegamers.com/welcome-to-dota-you-suck

Went over that, thanks, most of it makes a lot of sense.  I've still got a few newbie questions though if anyone's got the time:

1) The guide mentions that you should play support characters, ok, fine, I like support characters... but what exactly do they do in Dota?  In LoL you're generally poking at your opponents and keeping your carry alive with spells, in this game, you can't cast more than three or so spells before you head back.  I assume you're not supposed to last hit (not that I have much choice, given last hitting seems way harder than it is in LoL) so is there anything to do other than stand there drinking tea?  Because there is a looooot of farming in this game, and being a walking aura for ten minutes is not exactly engaging gameplay.

2) So when you level, you can rank up attributes instead of skills, yes?  When do you generally do this, or is it very hero dependent?  I noticed that I have a ton of trouble last hitting early on, and I'm not sure if I should be pouring points into attributes or maxing every skill first or what.  Are there heroes that you don't get all their skills on, generally, or do you try to max everything if you can?

That sounds like you are exaggerating when it comes to mana.  Bringing some mana pots is normal also.  Generally speaking, as support you want to deny creeps and harass the enemy heroes.

It is hero dependent.  If you want quick and dirty guides, check out www.dota2alttab.com

3) Healing seems like a pain... You have to blow a TP scroll to get back to base, sit there while your bar goes up, and then another to get back to the front lines... Do people generally just bring a backpack full of potions or something?  Because I'm blowing a fortune on these damn scrolls.

Tangos!

[Ingmar]

No, early on the mana thing really is hard to get your head around and 3 spells sounds about right for some heroes (given the context about support heroes I'm guessing he tried Omniknight...) It was always a battle to me mentally to NOT cast spells because early regen is so bad. That's why lich is such a great noob starting guy, because he gets around that.

[Fordel]

Supports are about chasing the other guy out of the lane so your guy can farm in peace for the most part. There are a every increasing number of shenanigans you can employ to do this as the general skill level of players goes up. Starting out, simply being in lane and actively harassing (right click that bastard  ) and denying is usually enough. Drops some wards and you are golden.


The standard starting loadout for almost every hero in the game includes 1 set of tangos and 1 health pot. If you still can't stay in lane after using those, invest in Tranquil Boots.


Leveling attributes is hero/build/situation dependent. Generally they are just filler points after you have maxed your actual skills.

[NiX]

Went over that, thanks, most of it makes a lot of sense.  I've still got a few newbie questions though if anyone's got the time:

Questions!

The role of a support early on is to do 3 things: Harass, deny and observe. Right click attacks are pretty good for harassing most of the time as you want to hold onto your mana for early engagements and ganks. If you have a melee support like Omni or Treant, you'll want to time your right clicks with whoever you're laning with. That way if the enemy engages you your carry is right there to assist and you might be able to convert their attack into a kill. Denying is a "nice to have", but if you're new most people don't expect much out of you in that regard. I've heard denying/last hitting is harder in Dota2, but it's the only MOBA I've played and I've never had an issue. Just have to practice the attack timing with each support hero to get a feel for when you need to attack. As for observing, I find a lot of the people I play with, even those who have a hundred or so wins, don't always watch the mini-map. Since you don't have to focus on last hitting and, if you've harassed properly, the enemy heros are backing off, you can focus some of your attention on the mini-map. You can call missing heros, notice changes in their movement, call out when a tower needs a TP..etc.

For most supports you'll want to have a max in their skills. Of course there are some exceptions, like Dazzle's invincibility spell for example. Some games may require you to put a few more in the "useless" skills just to lower the cooldown or cut mana cost. You'll learn that over time.

As a support I never carry more than 2 tangos and 1 healing pot. You need to figure out where the bulk of your damage is coming from and change your style.

Find yourself on here so we can watch some replays.

[Falconeer]

Find yourself on here so we can watch some replays.

Can you watch replays from there without launching the game? (If you can, it doesn't work for me. Click on "Watch Replay" and nothing happens).

[NiX]

Can you watch replays from there without launching the game? (If you can, it doesn't work for me. Click on "Watch Replay" and nothing happens).

I don't think you can.

[Falconeer]

That would have been... sublime. And hopefully it's the next step.

[Malakili]

That would have been... sublime. And hopefully it's the next step.

I'm not sure how it would be possible, they aren't video files.

[Falconeer]

I guess something like... the engine remotely (not on your machine) creates a video file on-demand from the replay file whenever someone clicks "Watch Replay" from the web interface.

[Malakili]

I guess something like... the engine remotely (not on your machine) creates a video file on-demand from the replay file whenever someone clicks "Watch Replay" from the web interface.

I'm assuming the replay files are just lists of commands like in Starcraft, so that seems like it would be really difficult to pull off, but maybe someone with more knowledge can comment more.

[Falconeer]

I have less knowledge than you so I am sure it's not feasible or viable at the moment or they would have done it already. I am just saying I'd LOVE a feature like that. And my non-tech idea was that a remote computer "plays" the replay file for you, records it, and then makes it available as video to you. So basically when you hit "watch replay" you are asking a remote computer to "watch" the game on a client for you and make a video of it.

[K9]

I guess something like... the engine remotely (not on your machine) creates a video file on-demand from the replay file whenever someone clicks "Watch Replay" from the web interface.

I'm assuming the replay files are just lists of commands like in Starcraft, so that seems like it would be really difficult to pull off, but maybe someone with more knowledge can comment more.

I have always been impressed by how small Starcraft replay files are. I would have assumed that with so many actions going on, you'd need much bigger files. Ditto for savegames. I'm sure there's some simple explanation for how it is done, I just don't know what it is.

[Fordel]

You don't record every step a unit takes, just the points where decisions are made. The engine figures out the rest.