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Author Topic: DOTA2  (Read 134502 times)
eldaec
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on: July 24, 2011, 05:03:37 AM

Seeing a lot of stories suggesting Valve are going to unveil DOTA2 at Gamescom, and that it is inexplicably still on target for the originally announced Q4 2011 launch.

LoL never really grabbed me, but I can see the attraction, and having it redone by Valve seems pretty awesome.

Quote from: PC Gamer
Valve detailed their plans for an improved download system for Steam over the weekend in a post on Steam, saying that “soon, Dota 2 will be delivered using it.” When Dota 2 was announced last October, Valve slated it for release this year. Since then there’s been very little information beyond the impressive character art, but we may see a lot more shortly. Valve are listed to show an unnamed strategy game at Gamescom next month, and developer IceFrog has said in a Q&A that at some stage “there will certainly be an opportunity to get involved with beta testing Dota 2.”

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Mosesandstick
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Reply #1 on: July 24, 2011, 05:29:01 AM

I just stopped playing LoL, so I'm looking forward to see what comes out. I think very few actual details have been released about the game.
Malakili
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Reply #2 on: July 24, 2011, 06:41:56 AM

I appreciate the genre a lot, but its never captured me.  I might be willing to give Valve's iteration a go though, especially if the price is right.
Amaron
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Reply #3 on: July 24, 2011, 07:41:17 PM

I'm still waiting for a version where killing your own creeps to deny xp by clicking on them at exactly the right time isn't a pro skill.   Someone let me know when that happens.
DLRiley
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Reply #4 on: July 24, 2011, 07:47:24 PM

Its called league of legends  DRILLING AND MANLINESS

In all seriousness, the last moba i played besides league was funcoms game my friend was shrilling for, small characters tossing skill shots at each other. didn't hold me.
Amaron
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Reply #5 on: July 24, 2011, 08:48:43 PM

That's odd I thought I tried it once and it did but now that I read they say it doesn't.   Guess I'll have to download it and try it again.   I'm curious about how DOT2 is going to turn out considering all the rumors about how much of a retard IceFrog is.
DLRiley
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Reply #6 on: July 26, 2011, 11:42:59 AM

K9
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Reply #7 on: July 26, 2011, 07:03:59 PM

Wrong thread?  Head scratch

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Prospero
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Reply #8 on: July 26, 2011, 07:13:46 PM

I'm definitely looking forward to Dota2, if for no other reason I think LoL needs some decent competition and it might take enough load off their servers that I won't have to deal with 30 minute queue times.
Megrim
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Reply #9 on: July 27, 2011, 06:38:44 AM

I'm curious about how DOT2 is going to turn out considering all the rumors about how much of a retard IceFrog is.

You'll have to elaborate on that one.

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Vaiti
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Reply #10 on: July 27, 2011, 07:53:43 AM

I've heard these rumors as well. But I can't elaborate because I don't remember details.

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Amaron
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Reply #11 on: July 27, 2011, 08:12:41 AM

You'll have to elaborate on that one.

It was back when EALouse was doing that blogging at first.   Some guy at Valve made a blog about how IceFrog is a dick and some other stuff I could care less about.   The only important bit was that supposedly he is very hostile to feedback and doesn't listen or whatever.   Valve upper management was supposedly just letting him get away with it too.
Kail
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Reply #12 on: July 27, 2011, 08:36:47 AM

Ya, the blog is here.  Made a bit of a splash, but it mostly just seems to be one guy spewing venom.  Icefrog has been kind of a quiet figure, so not a lot of people can say much to defend him.  I could have sworn we had a chat about it here, but I can't find it now.

There was also some minor wankery around the DOTA trademark, some kind of dispite with the LoL devs (who worked on DotA allstars) over the rights to the license and the status of the Warcraft 3 version of the game.  Allegedly that's part of why the game is officially called "Dota 2" rather than Defense of the Ancients 2.
Megrim
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Reply #13 on: July 31, 2011, 09:17:25 PM

You'll have to elaborate on that one.

It was back when EALouse was doing that blogging at first.   Some guy at Valve made a blog about how IceFrog is a dick and some other stuff I could care less about.   The only important bit was that supposedly he is very hostile to feedback and doesn't listen or whatever.   Valve upper management was supposedly just letting him get away with it too.

Ah yes, so the baseless make-belief crap. Carry on.

There should be a wealth of information coming out around the middle of August, as apparently there is going to be a big LAN even someplace in Europe which will showcase a lot of DotA2 stuff.

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FieryBalrog
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Reply #14 on: August 01, 2011, 10:53:30 AM

I hope DotA 2 works out because League of Legends has terriple input lag and generally sucks.

Sadly it looks like it has to be F2P at this point. I wouldn't mind if they gave me the option of buying the whole game, but if they don't, I doubt I'm going to grind for heroes I've already played in regular DotA. That's just not the type of thing I play a MOBA for, its like grinding for new units in Starcraft. Or maybe it'll be OK if the prices aren't LOL-esque where you have to pay $300 or so if you want all the heroes and runes.

If its not F2P, sign me up. The community features look badass.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2011, 10:55:30 AM by FieryBalrog »
Mosesandstick
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Reply #15 on: August 01, 2011, 11:30:51 AM

I just want the cost to play the game (i.e. the heroes) to not be out of this world.
K9
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Reply #16 on: August 01, 2011, 01:40:16 PM

From a casual pov, LOL's system is pretty right on the money I think.

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Prospero
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Reply #17 on: August 01, 2011, 02:17:05 PM

HoN lets players have access to most of the champs for free in the new F2P version as far as I can tell from the little I've played. Given that DOTA2 and HoN are both DOTA stright up DOTA clones I imagine Valve will have to do something similar.
Mosesandstick
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Reply #18 on: August 01, 2011, 02:51:49 PM

New heroes in LoL are rediculously expensive, each one costing around 7 USD on average. Compared to the old heroes, the first 40 heroes can be bought with 2 packs that cost around 50 USD in total I think (so just over a buck per). The hero rotation is 10 heroes per week, and around half of those heroes are beginner heroes that are constantly in the rotation.

I don't have access to the financials, but on the surface it seems like they're making an absolute killing. Riot has grown from something like 50 to 300 employees in the past 3 years and they got bought over by a massive Chinese fund called Tencent Holdings which apparently has the 3rd largest online market capitalisation.
Prospero
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Reply #19 on: August 01, 2011, 03:16:13 PM

Valve just announced the first DOTA2 tourney; grand prize a cool million dollars.

Malakili
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Reply #20 on: August 01, 2011, 03:28:56 PM

DLRiley
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Reply #21 on: August 01, 2011, 05:21:00 PM

New heroes in LoL are rediculously expensive, each one costing around 7 USD on average. Compared to the old heroes, the first 40 heroes can be bought with 2 packs that cost around 50 USD in total I think (so just over a buck per). The hero rotation is 10 heroes per week, and around half of those heroes are beginner heroes that are constantly in the rotation.

I don't have access to the financials, but on the surface it seems like they're making an absolute killing. Riot has grown from something like 50 to 300 employees in the past 3 years and they got bought over by a massive Chinese fund called Tencent Holdings which apparently has the 3rd largest online market capitalisation.

You haven't even started estimating skins.
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Reply #22 on: August 01, 2011, 05:25:20 PM

Um...cannot every hero be bought using IP, which is earned by simply playing the game?

Everything that counts in the game can be had for free...

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Mosesandstick
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Reply #23 on: August 01, 2011, 05:38:25 PM

I didn't mean to give the impression that heroes couldn't be bough with IP. I was just trying to give a ballpark figure of what the game "costs".

Average IP for a full game is currently around 100 I think, varying on how many games you play a day (every first win / day ~ 160 IP). Average IP cost of new heroes is over 5k, so it takes over 50 games played to have enough IP for one hero. In addition you probably need to have a set of runes to play on the same level as everybody else. A cheap, full, competitive set of runes (3 pages) costs around 15k IP.

TLDR: You can get everything you need in the game by just playing, but it would take a serious amount of time, which I can't even imagine. Basically thousands of games.
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Reply #24 on: August 01, 2011, 05:54:19 PM

Rokal
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Reply #25 on: August 01, 2011, 05:55:23 PM

I hope DotA 2 works out because League of Legends has terriple input lag and generally sucks.

I haven't experienced this "terriple" input lag you speak of. I also don't find the champion cost "rediculous" since they can be bought with IP earned in-game, and I don't know anyone who regularly rotates through 50+ champions. Most people seem to stick to playing 5-6 'main' champions, and IP arrives at a fast enough rate that you can still experiment with new champions (or wait for them to be free for a week). I've spent ~$50 on LoL after almost two years, and most of that was on skins. If I remember correctly, I've actually only bought 4 champions with RP, and two of them were on sale when I did.  I own over half of the champions in the game. The other half I haven't bought because I didn't want them, as most people will probably find themselves gravitating towards some champions and away from others.
Malakili
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Reply #26 on: August 01, 2011, 06:09:59 PM


The simultaneously getting a big generation of buzz, and it acts an an appeal to the competitive community saying "look at this shit, its legit."  Definitely a HUGE prize that is too big, but as a way to get into the moba market, not a bad strategy.
Margalis
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Reply #27 on: August 01, 2011, 06:43:32 PM

LoL is their main competition and as far as I can tell they didn't invite any LoL teams which seems like a huge swing and a miss. It seems like they are actually going straight for the DOTA crowd instead of the LoL crowd.

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Azuredream
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Reply #28 on: August 01, 2011, 06:50:14 PM

I don't think it matters, a tournament will only have the most uber players and 99% of the LoL crowd are average joes.

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DLRiley
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Reply #29 on: August 01, 2011, 07:19:52 PM

I hope DotA 2 works out because League of Legends has terriple input lag and generally sucks.

I haven't experienced this "terriple" input lag you speak of. I also don't find the champion cost "rediculous" since they can be bought with IP earned in-game, and I don't know anyone who regularly rotates through 50+ champions. Most people seem to stick to playing 5-6 'main' champions, and IP arrives at a fast enough rate that you can still experiment with new champions (or wait for them to be free for a week). I've spent ~$50 on LoL after almost two years, and most of that was on skins. If I remember correctly, I've actually only bought 4 champions with RP, and two of them were on sale when I did.  I own over half of the champions in the game. The other half I haven't bought because I didn't want them, as most people will probably find themselves gravitating towards some champions and away from others.

LOL is pretty grindy for pure IP. If your only buying with IP you have to
1. Buy a decent champ 6300 - 4300 IP average. At one game a day thast 2-3 weeks, at 3 games a day its 2 weeks.
2. Buying the runes, for that champion, assuming you goggled a build you have have anywhere between 4000 ip to 8000 ip for one set of blue, red, or yellows. The average physical carry rune set is (and considering that you have a choice between Attack Speed, Crit, Crit Damage, Straight Physical Damage, and Armor Pen) not including crit damage (800 per rune) is 14000. Mage rune set (again considering magic regen, straight mana, magic pen, and straight ability power), is 14000 more or less not including cooldown (800).

So each champ is runes + champ cost is about 14000+4300(ruling out the 6300 champs), which is 18300. Now remember it takes 2 weeks on 3 games (assuming you win one game) a day to get 6300 range. So one champ is 6 weeks of play to bring to competitive level. Oh remember 1 game of LOL is 45 minutes, average. Times 3 is 135 minutes or 2 hours. Want to double your grind? Ok 250 IP bonus, you need 2 games, assuming you win, to make 200 IP (woot), so thats 4 games which 3 hours + 2 = 5 hours to double your grind. Oh and thats for one champion. To have a modest win record you must know at least 4.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2011, 07:21:23 PM by DLRiley »
Rokal
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Reply #30 on: August 01, 2011, 07:46:45 PM

So all of the good champions cost 4300-6300 IP? Not even close to accurate. Champion cost has no bearing on how good the champion is. Ashe, Nunu, Kayle, Alister, TF, Amumu, Annie. There is a quick list of 7 of the most popular champions in the game, champions that are often ban picks because they are powerful, that cost 1350 or less IP.

I eventually did buy runes. I have an AP set and an AD set, with the only difference being magic pen or armor pen runes. You don't need to spend 14000 on runes per champion, you don't even need runes to compete. One of my friends still hasn't bought any runes after over 600 games, and he does completely fine in games. Your idiotic "18300" per champion estimate also completely ignores that many champions are going to use the exact same runes. Even if you did buy the perfect runes for your Trundle, he'll probably use the exact same runes as almost every other AD jungler you could possibly buy.
DLRiley
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Reply #31 on: August 01, 2011, 07:57:34 PM

err yeah. I'd say most people would end up buying a champ at the 4300 range because of the champ rotation and the new shiny easier to use champ that comes out every week. yes there are plenty of champs that are 1300 or less. master yi is 450. And no runes matter. alot. Its night and day without runes. But meh, it was far less grindy without the new ip system.
tazelbain
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Reply #32 on: August 01, 2011, 08:00:03 PM

You people guys are total OCD. RAWR! Gotta collect them all!There absolutely no reason to do this to have fun.  I hate to break it to you but if you are only playing 3 games a day you are never going to be at a level that having everything unlocked might make an once of difference.

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Mosesandstick
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Reply #33 on: August 01, 2011, 08:19:18 PM

Personally, I enjoy the variety and the opportunity to at least try champions out.  I don't see what that has to do with how good you are at a game. With the current rotation system, some champions can go 2 months before you get to try them out. There's a fair amount of variety in the champions you can buy in the packs, but buying any of the "new" champions can be prohibitely expensive, and the average price of new champions has been rising steadily for a long time.

I would have rather had LoL the game with HoN's pricing, but you can't have everything.
Rokal
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Reply #34 on: August 01, 2011, 08:27:47 PM

Runes don't matter much. They really only make a difference early-game, and from 1-29 nobody bothers using them. They certainly don't matter enough that someone needs to spend another 14000 IP to switch their armor pen runes to attack speed for a new champion. You'd really only want to fine-tune that much if you were in very high competitive play. For most players where obvious mistakes decide the game, it's a completely negligible difference. That said, I would actually prefer if runes were removed from the game (or made entirely free), but I don't think they are the time sink you make them out to be for any reasonable person.

Suddenly "buying a decent champion for 4300-6300" means "buying the most recent champion because I like teh shiney"?  Ohhhhh, I see. This is ignoring that new champions are often not "easier to use". See: recent complaints from forum retards about how the newest champion isn't better than X (Leona, etc.), or champions that were once new like Karma or Lee Sin that are very difficult to play (and not because they are under-tuned).

LoL actually has a pretty great business model imo.
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