DOTA2

[lamaros]

Not giving up is not unsportsmanlike.

The basic notion of sportsmanship is that winning isn't everything, it's how you play. Giving someone shit for not giving up as soon as you think they are beat is the unsportsmanlike act, not the other way around.

[Malakili]

Not giving up is not unsportsmanlike.

The basic notion of sportsmanship is that winning isn't everything, it's how you play. Giving someone shit for not giving up as soon as you think they are beat is the unsportsmanlike act, not the other way around.

It seems like there are just different cultures here.  It is absolutely considered bad mannered to stay in a Starcraft game after you are beaten, for example, thus forcing the enemy to actually eliminate you from the game.  Granted, it can't be considered BM in a game that doesn't allow you to surrender.  Frankly, at the end of the day this is less about winning and losing games than it is about letting the players in a game decide when they are done.    I'm perfectly happy to stay in a LoL game where my team doesn't surrender.  I might be upset they didn't, but I'm grown-up enough to suck it up and finish.  But honestly, I think that situation is way overblown.  The HUGE majority of the time the team knows they are beaten, and surrenders, and everyone is happier and moves on with their lives.  The fact that the system can be abused or isn't perfect isn't grounds to not have it at all.  Hell, sometimes I've been on the other side, and DON'T want to surrender, but my team passes the vote.  I still just queue up again and move on.   The amount of drama surrounding this feature is just way less in my experience then you guys seem to be suggesting, and maybe that is just lucky on my part, but overwhelming the drama/shit I've had in LoL from people occurs regardless of the surrender feature, it is just douchebags being douchebags.  They are going to be douchebags regardless.

[Ingmar]

It is absolutely considered bad mannered to stay in a Starcraft game after you are beaten, for example, thus forcing the enemy to actually eliminate you from the game.  

Not if you're the first one down in a multiplayer (team) game, though, right?

Also, Fordel and I beat up the easy bots, I am totally an expert now.

[Fordel]

Feeding noob!

[Rasix]

It is absolutely considered bad mannered to stay in a Starcraft game after you are beaten, for example, thus forcing the enemy to actually eliminate you from the game.  

Not if you're the first one down in a multiplayer (team) game, though, right?

 

I don't know if it's your newness to the genre, but I don't know what point you're trying to make here.  At least in LoL, surrender votes aren't unanimous.  One guy refusing to go won't stop anything.   I don't know how other MOBAs work.  Does HoN have a surrender function?

And grats on breaking the seal.  Only 200 to 300 games to go before you've got a good grasp on the mechanics. 

[Llyse]

It seems like there are just different cultures here.  It is absolutely considered bad mannered to stay in a Starcraft game after you are beaten, for example, thus forcing the enemy to actually eliminate you from the game.  Granted, it can't be considered BM in a game that doesn't allow you to surrender.  Frankly, at the end of the day this is less about winning and losing games than it is about letting the players in a game decide when they are done.    I'm perfectly happy to stay in a LoL game where my team doesn't surrender.  I might be upset they didn't, but I'm grown-up enough to suck it up and finish.  But honestly, I think that situation is way overblown.  The HUGE majority of the time the team knows they are beaten, and surrenders, and everyone is happier and moves on with their lives.  The fact that the system can be abused or isn't perfect isn't grounds to not have it at all.  Hell, sometimes I've been on the other side, and DON'T want to surrender, but my team passes the vote.  I still just queue up again and move on.   The amount of drama surrounding this feature is just way less in my experience then you guys seem to be suggesting, and maybe that is just lucky on my part, but overwhelming the drama/shit I've had in LoL from people occurs regardless of the surrender feature, it is just douchebags being douchebags.  They are going to be douchebags regardless.

I don't think it's fair to compare Starcraft gg with surrender at all.

Pro Starcraft is 1v1 (unless you're talking about team matches but from back in Broodwar you hung around hoping your teammate could finish off the weakened opponents).

Personally I also feel it's much more easier to objectively see when you've lost in a 1v1 game of Starcraft, who has the bigger army, more mineral intake, expansions, map control and better production.

It's much more clear than having a mess of a team fight 5v3 where the weaker team manages to kill their carries and burn down the throne due to the 90s respawn timer.

I admit I never got into LoL though so I can't say I've used it extensively

[Ingmar]

It is absolutely considered bad mannered to stay in a Starcraft game after you are beaten, for example, thus forcing the enemy to actually eliminate you from the game.  

Not if you're the first one down in a multiplayer (team) game, though, right?

 

I don't know if it's your newness to the genre, but I don't know what point you're trying to make here.  At least in LoL, surrender votes aren't unanimous.  One guy refusing to go won't stop anything.   I don't know how other MOBAs work.  Does HoN have a surrender function?

And grats on breaking the seal.  Only 200 to 300 games to go before you've got a good grasp on the mechanics.  

I was referring to SC2 - if you're in a team game, your teammate GGing or fighting til the last building can easily make the difference between win or lose, the extra few seconds for the other 2 teammates to drop the hammer, whatever. Point being, the 'rudeness' of *not* surrendering in SC2 is once again a 1 on 1 thing, which makes it pretty inapplicable to this.

====

Also, I totally beat the easy bots WITHOUT Fordel now, unstoppable

I can already tell the big  for me is going to be the item buying/upgrading whatever decisions. And learning/remembering what all the heroes I *don't* play can do I guess.

[Thrawn]

One thing from LoL that I would like to see added to DotA 2 is that if you haven't picked a champion by 0:00, you just get forced someone randomly and the game starts.

[Hoax]

Dota2 has a problem where it does take quite a long time to finish the game off. The game is way better off despite this for not having a /surrender option. Yes you need to be willing to play a game for one hour before you start a game of Dota2.

Dota2 has a problem with the game modes. Its hilarious how much better Riot's solo queue drafting works compared to any of the Dota2 game modes available. Single draft might get better when/if they give us trading and tell us what everyone on your team has in their pool but right now the Dota2 game modes are heavily inferior unless you are good enough to play with people who aren't retarded and all ten want to play for reals (never going to happen ever in pubs).

Dota2 has a problem where some things are hard to see/use/understand in game just because that's how it was in Dota1, for me the only one I can still think of is ward placement. Those things all just require some patience practice and adjustment but they don't help the fun in the first 100 games or so.

Dota2 has hats.

[Malakili]

So, I was watching The Defense (DOTA 2 tournament) and one team was about to lose their last barracks and called gg.  Seems normal enough.   But then they continued to fight, both sides got a couple of more kills, and a couple of minutes later they overwhelmed them finally and won the game.  Everyone in the game seemed to be cool with what down, the announcers mentioned the gg when it came out, but didn't seem surprised the fighting continued.  In this sort of competitive environment is this the normal etiquette?  Just found it odd to call out gg, and to continue playing (I guess instead of waiting in your spawn for the game to end).

[Thrawn]

So, I was watching The Defense (DOTA 2 tournament) and one team was about to lose their last barracks and called gg.  Seems normal enough.   But then they continued to fight, both sides got a couple of more kills, and a couple of minutes later they overwhelmed them finally and won the game.  Everyone in the game seemed to be cool with what down, the announcers mentioned the gg when it came out, but didn't seem surprised the fighting continued.  In this sort of competitive environment is this the normal etiquette?  Just found it odd to call out gg, and to continue playing (I guess instead of waiting in your spawn for the game to end).

Tiebreakers were being decided by how long it took a team to win/lose, so by defending longer they improve their tiebreaker score.

[Malakili]

So, I was watching The Defense (DOTA 2 tournament) and one team was about to lose their last barracks and called gg.  Seems normal enough.   But then they continued to fight, both sides got a couple of more kills, and a couple of minutes later they overwhelmed them finally and won the game.  Everyone in the game seemed to be cool with what down, the announcers mentioned the gg when it came out, but didn't seem surprised the fighting continued.  In this sort of competitive environment is this the normal etiquette?  Just found it odd to call out gg, and to continue playing (I guess instead of waiting in your spawn for the game to end).

Tiebreakers were being decided by how long it took a team to win/lose, so by defending longer they improve their tiebreaker score.

That is fine.  I guess I just interpret gg as "I (we) concede" so it was odd to see people continue playing after what looked to me like  a concession.  *Shrugs* It isn't really important just struck me as odd.

[Llyse]

That is fine.  I guess I just interpret gg as "I (we) concede" so it was odd to see people continue playing after what looked to me like  a concession.  *Shrugs* It isn't really important just struck me as odd.

Yeah, it's different to SC2 and Broodwar where you say gg then quit.

it's more saying good game I think we've lost this

[Mosesandstick]

Did the whole team say it or was it just one player?

[Ingmar]

Barrier to entry, high. So far I have a faint noob grasp of:

Lich
Omniknight
Sniper
Tidehunter
Zeus

Of those I think I felt most comfortable/effective (against the amazing bots) with Lich and Omniknight. So, I'll probably figure out some kind of decent item build for each of those and dip my feet into the horrors of a pub game soon. I hope they're not both taken first.  

EDIT: I tried Venomancer too and liked it but I am sure that the way I was playing him would not actually work against real players so I am not including him in 'things I think I sort of understand'.

[eldaec]

I found the barrier much more surmountable once I got the fuck out of the lanes and started playing jungle heroes. Ursa was the first to click for me, especially as the development strategy is simple. Kill shit in jungle, each level take whichever skill is the furthest to the right, buy Vlad's, fuck Roshan's shit up.

I'm starting to play laning heroes, but found it much easier to learn the basics in a role where enemy bots don't bother you while leveling (so I'm not feeding them), and I'm not pissing off team mates so much.

Also, finding this extremely useful for hero builds : http://www.dotafire.com/dota-2/guides

[Megrim]

One of the better guides I've seen is this one. It covers most of the things you need to know about going into the game, as well as giving some advice for what happens once you get beyond the initial baby steps.

[Azuredream]

Ahhh geez. That guide is depressing.

Animation Cancelling

Every hero has an amount of time it takes to perform an attack, like swinging your sledgehammer back before crushing brains. This is called an attack animation.

All heroes have different attack animations. Some are very long, some are very short. They are all quite reduced late game when your hero gets more attack speed. Slow attack animations are most notable early game. All attack animations have attack points. I am going to explain this with an example.

Lets say it takes Necrolyte 1.5 seconds to finish an attack animation, but he actually throws his attack at 1.1 seconds. This means that you ONLY have to wait 1.1 seconds to throw an attack. The best way to cancel this is to right click on the ground to move at 1.1 seconds. THIS IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT WHEN CHASING. It is normally called attack move or Orb Walking(when heroes have orbs like slows).

If you do not cancel your animation at 1.1 seconds, you will stand there for NO reason for .4 seconds, which can be the difference between getting a kill and not getting a kill. Always, always learn the animation cancel for your character if they have a long animation. Most melee heroes have a faster animation, and generally ranged heroes have the longer animations.

Why would you copy stuff like that over from DotA 1?

[Malakili]

Ahhh geez. That guide is depressing.

Animation Cancelling

Every hero has an amount of time it takes to perform an attack, like swinging your sledgehammer back before crushing brains. This is called an attack animation.

All heroes have different attack animations. Some are very long, some are very short. They are all quite reduced late game when your hero gets more attack speed. Slow attack animations are most notable early game. All attack animations have attack points. I am going to explain this with an example.

Lets say it takes Necrolyte 1.5 seconds to finish an attack animation, but he actually throws his attack at 1.1 seconds. This means that you ONLY have to wait 1.1 seconds to throw an attack. The best way to cancel this is to right click on the ground to move at 1.1 seconds. THIS IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT WHEN CHASING. It is normally called attack move or Orb Walking(when heroes have orbs like slows).

If you do not cancel your animation at 1.1 seconds, you will stand there for NO reason for .4 seconds, which can be the difference between getting a kill and not getting a kill. Always, always learn the animation cancel for your character if they have a long animation. Most melee heroes have a faster animation, and generally ranged heroes have the longer animations.

Why would you copy stuff like that over from DotA 1?

I don't really see the problem with it.  Every game has quirks like that to master if you want to be competitive.

[Lakov_Sanite]

For the oldschool arcade and console fighters that couldn't be patched I understand but for a persistent online game? The only reason to have it is an artificial way to build depth into your game

[Malakili]

For the oldschool arcade and console fighters that couldn't be patched I understand but for a persistent online game? The only reason to have it is an artificial way to build depth into your game

Plenty of worthwhile mechanics game out of bugs/exploits.  It adds a top tier of play, and the reality is that no one here is likely to play at high enough level that they need to worry about this stuff.  I think people see stuff like this and worry about it tons when meanwhile they are still missing 1/2 their last hits and such.  It is really just a non issue as far as I am concerned, and even if in principle you don't like it, in practice it isn't going to matter for all but high levels of play.

[eldaec]

Like denial, it's a thing I file under shitty design you can mostly ignore.

The worry is they don't go so far as to add similar nonsense that might start to affect games between old and non-competitive individuals - because it really doesn't speak well of the people designing the game.

[Ingmar]

Yeah I had read that purge guide earlier, very helpful as an intro.

[Malakili]

Finally had a couple breakthrough games where things have started clicking for me.  Finally to the point after maybe 50 games or so where I feel like I actually have a feel for what is going on, what can kill me, what I can kill, etc etc.   Also, jungle lycanthrope is pretty fun.

[Ice Cream Emperor]

Without aiming to restart this whole thing again (long weekend vacations are good for squashing foolish internet-argument impulses), I just want to point out that there is a big difference between a scheduled, organized game (which is probably most of the sports-games people have experience with) and a casual pick-up game. It's true that I have never seen a team walk off the field in a league game of soccer -- but if you play pick-up soccer people come and go all the time, even if the game 'serious' enough to keep a vague score, etc.

But really it comes down to the fact that there is no direct, mechanical, structural momentum in most (all?) athletic sports. As I mention ad-nauseum, Chess is a game that includes structural momentum, and all serious play of Chess includes the ability for one side to resign or offer a draw. If you are unwilling to ever resign or accept draw offers, you are not going to get very far playing competitive Chess.

SC2 is another game that involves structural momentum, and unsurprisingly it also includes (as far as I can tell, I don't play it) a tradition of concession, though not one that is totally always 100% awesome -- which is not surprising, even Chess grandmasters have been known to concede/offer draws incorrectly. I am guessing if you did an analysis of FPS games (and their most popular competitive modes) you would see an identical trend: the modes/games that include structural momentum (and consequently have longer competitive units, in terms of time to finish) also include the ability to resign.

Anyways, I did appreciate the longer unpacking of objections from Megrim -- but I don't know if I agree that lopsided games in which one team has stomped the other early game are a particularly useful place to practice map control and late-game strategies. It's not hard to control the map when you are 5 levels higher than the other team and/or have out of control carries, etc. I'm not saying you can't practice at all, but you get a pretty skewed perspective on how to be efficient with wards, etc. when you are drowning in money and the enemy team is stuck in their base. I do agree that if the result of a surrender option in DOTA was that almost all games ended after 25 minutes, it would be a bad thing -- but maybe I just overrate the competitiveness of my fellow-players when I suggest that it wouldn't happen. It happens in LoL because, as mentioned, LoL has very little variability in scaling, or difference in mid- to late-game play. I don't think that the majority of people in LoL games surrender just because the option is available, but instead because they actually correctly recognize that they have lost -- the fact that this is usually obvious after the first 15-20 minutes of the game is a failure of LoL, not the surrender command.

[Thrawn]

Without aiming to restart this whole thing again

[Llyse]

 

I started playing some other random heroes, I don't get Ursa yet... he's a monster but I have no feel for what he can handle compared to other characters. Slardar is fun. And bad teammates that extend games and shit talk suck. Even if you're winning and especially if you trying to end it

[Hoax]

Ursa is incredibly team dependent once you get out of the lowest levels of play you basically need a team that was built around holding people in place for you so you can eat them.

Prior to that level of play you can basically go to jungle, farm vlads, kill rosh solo (should be by minute 10 if not sooner), get aegis, jungle more, get blink/bkb/shadow blade, eat the stupidest person on their team over and over again, take gold and make big items, win game.

Determining if its a shadow blade or bkb or blink dagger game is probably the only hard part. In your first 50 games its probably shadow blade, nobody will use dust and you can just free kill the most annoying support with it. Against a team where everyone brought a stun bkb is a must and if your team has bad lock down or no initiation or they have elusive targets blink might be the choice.

My favorite Ursa partnership is Shadow Shaman but anyone with a long root or even good slow will work. If you hit a single target with Overpower + Fury Swipes + Enrage they die basically automatically no matter who they are. If they don't you have done something very wrong in your item build or your farming/leveling.

One time when I was a total noob against total noobs I went SS + Ursa in safe lane and we got like 11 kills in 15 minutes because they literally couldn't figure out to stop letting me shackle someone and ursa would just walk up and kill them. Their lane was like Puck and someone else who shouldn't be in a duo lane but that game has always stuck with me because it was so fucking easy and it was one of the only times I've felt like I was on the team doing the obnoxiously simple pub stomping.

[Fordel]

Ursa is always a hoot, it doesn't matter how big someone gets, give Ursa 3 uninterrupted seconds and he will eat them, the end.


Never man fight an Ursa. 

[Thrawn]

Went and played a random draft after reading thread, got Ursa.   

[Thrawn]

Some interesting numbers and graphs for crazy people who like that kind of thing -

http://dotaholic.com/dota-2/statistics-blog

[Ingmar]

I bet the slight Radiant win advantage is down entirely to that being the side people practice on vs. bots more before taking their first dive into the real game. 

[eldaec]

Some interesting numbers and graphs for crazy people who like that kind of thing -

http://dotaholic.com/dota-2/statistics-blog

The GPM stats irritated me.

Correllation is not causality, espeicially when winning generates gold.

Comparing GPM before first blood or in the first n minutes would be interesting.

[Thrawn]

Happened at last, got Invoker doing random in all pick.  Have no idea why I never tried him before, it wasn't that difficult and might be the most fun hero I've played to date.  I certainly didn't carry, but I did manage to end the game with more kills than deaths. (We won, our Dragon Knight/Jugger lane crushed and got fed.)

[cmlancas]

I lost so many hours of my life playing this game, from pubs to the stupid banlist to eventual cal- competition.

In fifteen words or less, is DotA2 worth risking poopsocking?