DOTA2

[Malakili]

How so?

Mmm, perhaps I've spoken too soon, the spectator FAQ is out of date on the LoL site, it looks like they have adopted some of the similar features of DOTA2's mode according to the patch notes.  So I'll retract that part of what I said.

[Lounge]

They've integrated that directed camera into the replay system as well.  There is an option that runs the replay at like 8x and slows everything down when there is action.  It's pretty brilliant.

[Thrawn]

Only took them 2+ years to add one of the most requested features.  

[K9]

A bit of competition is probably healthy for the genre.

I don't see either DoTA2 or LoL killing the other though.

[Thrawn]

I don't see either DoTA2 or LoL killing the other though.

Agreed, DotA 2 will never have the HUGE player base of LoL because League is so much more accessible to players new to the genre (it's what got me started).  DotA 2 may end up with a more interesting eSport scene simply because tournament level League has become extremely boring to watch, but I will be surprised if DotA 2 ever hits even 25% of Leagues player numbers.

[Malakili]

I don't see either DoTA2 or LoL killing the other though.

Agreed, DotA 2 will never have the HUGE player base of LoL because League is so much more accessible to players new to the genre (it's what got me started).  DotA 2 may end up with a more interesting eSport scene simply because tournament level League has become extremely boring to watch, but I will be surprised if DotA 2 ever hits even 25% of Leagues player numbers.

Agreed.  But LoL is taking off as a competitive game in Korea now, which is really going to increase its longevity as an eSport.  Apparently the game is absolutely HUGE in PC bangs right now (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC_bang) which is notable because it mirrors the rise off Starcraft: Broodwar there. 

[K9]

I don't see either DoTA2 or LoL killing the other though.

Agreed, DotA 2 will never have the HUGE player base of LoL because League is so much more accessible to players new to the genre (it's what got me started).  DotA 2 may end up with a more interesting eSport scene simply because tournament level League has become extremely boring to watch, but I will be surprised if DotA 2 ever hits even 25% of Leagues player numbers.

I'm not a huge eSport fan, but how does the playstyle of DOTA two make for more compelling viewing than LoL? Both are pretty impenetrable and hard to follow from a viewing standpoint in my view. It's not like Starcraft, where you can follow the economic game, and the micro game at the same time, and cool micro is easy to spot and appreciate; at least that's what I see in these games.

[Malakili]

I'm not a huge eSport fan, but how does the playstyle of DOTA two make for more compelling viewing than LoL? Both are pretty impenetrable and hard to follow from a viewing standpoint in my view. It's not like Starcraft, where you can follow the economic game, and the micro game at the same time, and cool micro is easy to spot and appreciate; at least that's what I see in these games.

The Metagame for LoL has become VERY VERY passive for the most part, so there are a lot of times when nothing is happening for really long stretches, just people farming.  DOTA 2 seems much more dynamic and exciting throughout, at least from what I have seen.   I'll watch LoL on occasion (say, if the SC2 stream is quiet for a while during a tournament that also has a LoL stream) and it just isn't very exciting to watch.  But DOTA 2 has tended to produce more interesting from a spectator standpoint.

[FieryBalrog]

I tried DOTA long before League was even a figment in anyone's mind's eye.

It was shit then for the same reasons I'm saying now for its sequel. Valve is not making a Valve game. They are making Icefrog's Bad Mod 2, Sequel Boogaloo.

^ Jesus yeah. What's up with Valve and rehashing lately, CS:GO looks just as completely unexciting.

I got in the beta AFTER I burned out of LoL. I was really ready to give it a chance again (I played DotA a lot years ago). I played one game and haven't launched it since. It may be a great esport, but the game is just annoying. After playing LoL I can't go back.

The two huge advantage I think they have, to overcome their shit game design, is that (1) the full roster will probably be free (Valve doesn't exactly need the money, and being privately owned they are free to do awesome stuff like this). And (2) It's on Steam, duh.

[Fordel]

I don't see either DoTA2 or LoL killing the other though.

Agreed, DotA 2 will never have the HUGE player base of LoL because League is so much more accessible to players new to the genre (it's what got me started).  DotA 2 may end up with a more interesting eSport scene simply because tournament level League has become extremely boring to watch, but I will be surprised if DotA 2 ever hits even 25% of Leagues player numbers.

I'm not a huge eSport fan, but how does the playstyle of DOTA two make for more compelling viewing than LoL? Both are pretty impenetrable and hard to follow from a viewing standpoint in my view. It's not like Starcraft, where you can follow the economic game, and the micro game at the same time, and cool micro is easy to spot and appreciate; at least that's what I see in these games.

Players actually get kills in DotA2 and/or actively escape them. That's very easy to understand. The shoutcaster's can then fill you in on the non-obvious farm/denial/xp/gold battles or whatever.

Watching a Windrunner carve herself a path through the woods with her special arrow to escape a blinking hero is pretty neat.

Watching 3 heroes stand in a shrub and fail gank an enemy simply because the enemy could walk the opposite direction, not so much fun to view.

[Malakili]

Watching a Windrunner carve herself a path through the woods with her special arrow to escape a blinking hero is pretty neat.

I agree with this, the dynamic nature of the terrain because the trees can be destroyed tends to be a source of the coolest moments, at least from my perspective.

[Kail]

It's not like Starcraft, where you can follow the economic game, and the micro game at the same time, and cool micro is easy to spot and appreciate; at least that's what I see in these games.

Minor derail: I've heard sort of thing this a few times from StarCraft players, and it kind of puzzles me.  Surely, both games are fairly inscrutable to the ininitiated observer (someone who's never played the game or any of the similar titles), right?  It's just little video game mans shooting each other, and then one side dies for reasons they don't really understand.  And if you do decide to learn about them, both games are fairly easy to understand the basics of, with regards to economy and tech/buffs/etc. at least to the degree that even if you can't execute a pro level strategy, you can generally understand why they're doing it.  I'm just not seeing why SC would be easier to follow than LoL or DotA.

[Fordel]

Two armies trying to kill each other is a very easy concept to grasp. As is the idea that 2 marines might die to a giant space monster, but 20 will be okay.

[Kail]

Two armies trying to kill each other is a very easy concept to grasp. As is the idea that 2 marines might die to a giant space monster, but 20 will be okay.

Sure, but what about LoL or DotA is different in that respect?  The concept of a single really powerful unit or team of units laying waste to an army of weaker enemies is the central theme of about 95% of all action movies.

[Ingmar]

MOBA gameplay is just much less intuitive than RTS gameplay overall. Objectives, why you'd take a particular action, etc., all this is much clearer for the uninitiated in an RTS than it is in a MOBA.

[Mosesandstick]

I agree, and the plethora of skills probably makes it even more confusing. Armies are easy to understand, heroes doing things out of nowhere aren't.

[Fordel]

Two armies trying to kill each other is a very easy concept to grasp. As is the idea that 2 marines might die to a giant space monster, but 20 will be okay.

Sure, but what about LoL or DotA is different in that respect?  The concept of a single really powerful unit or team of units laying waste to an army of weaker enemies is the central theme of about 95% of all action movies.

DotA doesn't have two armies fighting each other.

It has two teams of theoretically equally powerful hero characters fighting each other, where said heroes power levels can vary DRAMATICALLY between level differences, item builds and skill selection and use. A hero in one game can be a unstoppable death machine, but be shut down entirely the next and the reasons for both are not apparent at all to those without specific game knowledge.



Just look at how the average DotA game starts, with rival heroes standing beside each other, basically ignoring one another as they both play the last hit farming game. "Why aren't they attacking each other? Aren't they supposed to kill each other? Why did he just kill his own teams monster?" Without specific game knowledge, that's all very counter intuitive.


Where in SC2, the Terran player building a wall at the entrance to his base to keep the Alien bug monsters out, not only is that understandable from a spectator point of view, it's down right sensible! 

[Ingmar]

And furthermore the *way* they fight each other - which is mostly not by fighting each other directly - is baffling if you don't know the game well. SC2 is easy to grasp. Gather resources, build army, knock down other guy's base. MOBAs are like, we shall go do our thing and not actually directly fight each other until some unspecified point and even when we do it will be confusing!


And yeah, MOBAs have all kinds of extra concepts about roles and builds that don't manifest themselves in the same way as in an RTS. Starcraft has builds, yes, but they manifest themselves in very obvious and watchable ways. Oh look, that guy just built a shit ton of flying space bugs, etc. MOBA stuff is much more opaque.

[Fordel]

Which is why DotA 2 is a better spectator experience, since for whatever reason, direct conflict seems to happen WAY more in Dota2.


Watching a pair of heroes sneak through the jungle to assassinate the unsuspecting enemy. Anyone can grasp that.

[Teleku]

Played a few games of this with friends against bot.   I really didn't enjoy it very much, but I haven't given it much time, so really shouldn't judge.  Still, pace of game just feels slow/off.  But the biggest things that made me outright hate it was the UI and graphics.  Seriously, the UI seemed really counter intuitive, and the graphics are bland as shit.  Really like LoL's graphical style way better, and this game is just hard to look at for me.  But meh, maybe I'll give it another shot later on.

[Thrawn]

The current store layout in DotA is especially terrible compared to LoL.  You mostly have to know what your looking for to be able find it.

[Malakili]

The current store layout in DotA is especially terrible compared to LoL.  You mostly have to know what your looking for to be able find it.

Yeah, I was noticing this as well.  This is especially annoying to me because they just changed a huge amount of the icons and all the websites I've been looking at for build guides have the old graphics still so I can't even easily just try to match the icon.   On the other hand, once I know where everything is, it is definitely quick then having to go through a couple of layers of menus.  I guess like everything else in DOTA 2 it sucks for newbies and makes sense for veterans 

[HaemishM]

Anything makes sense for veterans. The DOTA newbie UI experience is just fucking dreadful and there's really no excuse for it other than "it's like DOTA."

[K9]

Two armies trying to kill each other is a very easy concept to grasp. As is the idea that 2 marines might die to a giant space monster, but 20 will be okay.

Sure, but what about LoL or DotA is different in that respect?  The concept of a single really powerful unit or team of units laying waste to an army of weaker enemies is the central theme of about 95% of all action movies.

What the other chaps said, but to add. I think if you watch a SC2 battle and you see a player doing some really nice micro, like blinking out individual stalkers as they take damage, that is intuitively easier to follow than trying to follow a hero in LoL or DoTA pull off some impressive combo of abilities where most of the activity is often invisible to the spectator. SC2 tends to have fewer spell effects than LoL, and you can intuitively follow the tides of battle easier by watching units fall. In contrast, I watch team fights in LoL (even as someone who has played a fair amount of the game) and most times you just see a bunch of people blow up in an unintelligible mess of special effects and the 10s later one or two heroes walk away, and there's not much to be learned or appreciated from that.

[Fordel]

Anything makes sense for veterans. The DOTA newbie UI experience is just fucking dreadful and there's really no excuse for it other than "it's like DOTA."

What makes the DotA2 UI so much worse as a player?

[Malakili]

Anything makes sense for veterans. The DOTA newbie UI experience is just fucking dreadful and there's really no excuse for it other than "it's like DOTA."

What makes the DotA2 UI so much worse as a player?

I think it is really only the store UI that is the problem.  It just lays everything out, by icon only, and there is one tab for base items and one tab for "upgrades."  There are also 4 secret stores on the map, and it isn't clear at all what is located where by the UI.  I jumped in game real quick and took a couple screenshots to show the store UI http://imgur.com/aQ8zf,0Ndvs

Admittedly, the suggested items are nice, and it does have the ability to save custom builds, which is also nice.

[ezrast]

The default shop UI has two levels of tabs and only displays one column of items (with names) at a time.

But no, it's not just the shop. It's also the wonky selection mechanisms, the terrible range indicators, the inability to bind modifier keys other than alt, the way-too-zoomed camera, and the lack of smartcast.

[Fordel]

I guess I don't see the issue with icon only menus for items if each item as a distinct icon.

[Malakili]

I guess I don't see the issue with icon only menus for items if each item as a distinct icon.

Again, it is just another thing for newbies to overcome.  They aren't particularly well organized and can be hard to find if you don't know what you are looking for.  It is not the end of the world, it just sucks to be that guy on your team that needs to sit that at your fountain and slowly pick through the list.  I've only played a handful of vs. bot games, and I don't dare venture into a real match until I've got all of this basic stuff figured out.   Its definitely going to be a hefty learning curve, and this just adds to it.  This isn't a long term issue, its a learning curve issue.  Compare it to LoL where I could always find items easily because they were organized by stat, so all i had to know was what the item did and I could find it pretty quickly.

[Thrawn]

the terrible range indicators

I've never tried it myself but I've read that you can improve range indicators through some settings changes.  Although even if that does work the fact it isn't default is still a terrible UI.

the way-too-zoomed camera

I probably scroll my mouse wheel to make sure I'm zoomed out as far as I can twenty times a game easily.   

[HaemishM]

Anything makes sense for veterans. The DOTA newbie UI experience is just fucking dreadful and there's really no excuse for it other than "it's like DOTA."

What makes the DotA2 UI so much worse as a player?

1/4 of the screen is obscured by an absolutely unnecessary block of buttons and icons, most of which is just empty color.

[Thrawn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtJumK0mcvM&t=7m13s

DotA 2 tournament game, 5-4 and a Roshan (think Baron) kill before a minute into the game.

It also just dawned on me an obvious reason by LoL has gotten boring to watch, summoner spells. "OH HE MADE HIM BURN FLASH!" is an eventful gank in early game high level play.

[Malakili]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtJumK0mcvM&t=7m13s

DotA 2 tournament game, 5-4 and a Roshan (think Baron) kill before a minute into the game.

It also just dawned on me an obvious reason by LoL has gotten boring to watch, summoner spells. "OH HE MADE HIM BURN FLASH!" is an eventful gank in early game high level play.

Yeah, as I've been playing DOTA 2 I've realized just how sloppy and stupid having Flash in LoL has made me play.

[Fordel]

Ursa is so silly to watch. Enemies were vaporizing once he got his claws on them.

[Der Helm]

I'd give this a try if someone got a code left.