DOTA2

[tazelbain]

Hassle is skill and suffering is achievement.

[Megrim]

Yeah, this kind of stuff is what's horrible about DotA 2 right now imo.  I can see character icons on the mini map, but only if I hold alt?  Whyyyyyyyyyy?

You could, possibly, look at the options menu. And see what options you can enable. But that might be too hardcore. 

[Lounge]

Yeah, this kind of stuff is what's horrible about DotA 2 right now imo.  I can see character icons on the mini map, but only if I hold alt?  Whyyyyyyyyyy?

They added an option to make it always show icons.  For some stupid reason they decided not to make it the default.

Please explain to me why rocket jumping is acceptable emergent game play but deny is not?

[Ingmar]

Emergent gameplay in a goofy shooter played with random people is entirely different than "emergent gameplay" in a game designed to be a competitive tournament game. Emergent gameplay in the latter is stuff like tearing your Chaos Orb card up and sprinkling it all over the table in MTG. Stuff like that gets designed out, not put up on a little pedestal, assuming good designers are involved.

[Teleku]

Thank you so much for reminding me of long lost Chaos orb.  Now its mechanics like that they need to re-introduce!

[schild]

Hassle is skill and suffering is achievement.

I never made the DOTA2/Eve connection, but I suppose I should have a long time ago.

[HaemishM]

So to the guys who've played both. If Valve put in a "No Deny Casual Mode", would DotA2 be superior to LoL and crush it outright, or is LoL still holding all the momentum of the player base?

In the two games I've played, I've barely noticed denial. Maybe if I get more adept at it, I might but I doubt it.

For comparison, LOL feels like a more STREAMLINED version of DOTA. It's most certainly an easier game to get into, the interface, while not great, is a whole lot easier to read. The DOTA 2 UI is fuckstupid godawful shittastic. I have yet to be able to find anything that lets me shrink the donkey cock big bottom and top frames, which makes me feel like I'm playing the game through a fucking pinhole. Animations feel slow so actions feel slow. Not being able to teleport back to spawn for shopping is irritating and the courier mechanic is yet one more thing to micromanage. The shop interface is really obtuse and hard to figure out if you don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of the item database. Almost everything about the interface feels like a step backward in evolutionary time from League of Legends.

It is certainly more complex, with lots more things to concern yourself with. I didn't even realize you could level attributes until last night when I leveled and could put no more points into abilities. The graphic style difference between LOL and DOTA2 makes the map a bit harder to read, as everything is a bit fuzzier and more "realistic" (though neither are going for photorealism). I was kind of weirded out by the ability to abandon the match on an individual basis. At one point last night, I looked up and discovered that a 5v5 game had turned into a 2v2 game and I hadn't even noticed. We ended up melting the other team and destroying their base for my first win, but it felt really weird.

[schild]

All of that is because Valve made dota2 instead of trying to make a Valve game.

[HaemishM]

Someone definitely needs to be punched in the balls for the UI.

[Lounge]

Watching most of you guys try out Dota2 for the first time reminds me of trying out League.  Pretty much the same frustrations on my part coming in as an experienced dota1 player.  I am guessing most of this (on both sides) is just that we already knew something and were used to it and can't understand why anyone would think to do it differently.

[schild]

I tried DOTA long before League was even a figment in anyone's mind's eye.

It was shit then for the same reasons I'm saying now for its sequel. Valve is not making a Valve game. They are making Icefrog's Bad Mod 2, Sequel Boogaloo.

[HaemishM]

Watching most of you guys try out Dota2 for the first time reminds me of trying out League.  Pretty much the same frustrations on my part coming in as an experienced dota1 player.  I am guessing most of this (on both sides) is just that we already knew something and were used to it and can't understand why anyone would think to do it differently.

After having played my 3rd game today, I'm not entirely sure this is the case. Yes, I love LOL but looking at the added layers DOTA 2 has over LOL, I'm just not sure they do anything positive other than raise the learning curve. And did I mention how fucking AWFUL the UI is? Why am I losing 1/4 of the screen to interface? Team fights are hard enough to track without losing 25% of my peripheral vision.

And is the summoner experience disabled for the beta? I haven't gotten any XP for 3 games, and one of those was a win.

[Megrim]

XP is disabled at the moment, yes. I'm not even sure what its supposed to do, actually.

[Hoax]

League feels more simple to me. I'm not any good at DOTA 2, but I find myself appreciating what I perceive to be more depth. To make a comparison, I recognize that Magic is much more complicated and interesting game once you understand how all the different mechanics can interact with each other,  or the timing of how things go onto and resolve off the stack. I never quite understood all that, but I recognized it was there and probably made it a more interesting game then the Pokemon TCG.

Good post and 100% agree.

@Haem:

The positives are that in league things get very predictable once you've played or watched enough of it. The DOTA2 learning curve isn't just a learning curve its a skill cap that is astronomically higher than LoL, one of the key things to look at is item philosophy between the two games, fog of war versus brush, map size, champ turning speed, mana and cooldown numbers and I could keep going. The outcomes feel much less predetermined as a result. Whereas in LoL its much less likely for the unexpected to occur because playing safe and smart is so much easier and gives you so much more thanks to the red/blue buff, dragon and baron.

[Fordel]

I'm watching the LoL tourney at IPL Vegas, and so far, its kinda boring. I don't know if its the quality of the teams playing, or the shoutcasting, or the simple fact I don't recognize any of the heroes.

It's 2:2 sixteen minutes into this game without a single tower down. Will keep watching in hopes it picks up.


-edit-

Can heroes not destroy the terrain in LoL? That's one thing I didn't see in the LoL game that was really fun to watch in the DotA2 game, the ability for heroes to plow through trees to hide/escape/attack.

[Malakili]

I'm watching the LoL tourney at IPL Vegas, and so far, its kinda boring. I don't know if its the quality of the teams playing, or the shoutcasting, or the simple fact I don't recognize any of the heroes.

It's 2:2 sixteen minutes into this game without a single tower down. Will keep watching in hopes it picks up.


-edit-

Can heroes not destroy the terrain in LoL? That's one thing I didn't see in the LoL game that was really fun to watch in the DotA2 game, the ability for heroes to plow through trees to hide/escape/attack.

The terrain is not destructible in LoL.  Also, playing extremely defensively is pretty common.  Its not nearly as entertaining an eSport to watch as DOTA 2.  (Granted, I prefer SC to both of them, but I digress).  LoL's extreme stream viewer numbers comes from the fact that it has such a huge playerbase, not its quality as a spectator game.

[Rasix]

Tourney LoL, especially in knockout games, is really passive.  I had a hard time watching LoL, before I played it, when all I would see were stuff like the Season 1 finals. 

DOTA2 streams are still hard for me to follow. Still too foreign.  Still have yet to play. 

[Thrawn]

I predict some fun games coming up soon.

I just found out that picking "random" starts you with 250 more gold than normal. 

[Thrawn]

Had an interesting message when I logged into DotA 2 today.

"We’ve recently taken action against one or more players you’ve previously reported for bad conduct. Thanks for your help in making the Dota 2 community a friendlier place."

Of course I think on average I report at least one person almost every game so I can't exactly narrow it down.

[schild]

If they take action against everyone reported, there would be no community.

[Thrawn]

If they take action against everyone reported, there would be no community.

Well, yeah, that's a given for pretty much every game that connects to the internet.  I don't report any more often in DotA than I did in League.

[Fordel]

I'm watching this JoinDOTA tourney and it's much better as a spectator thing. Way more STUFF going on.


Like stuff I, the uninitiated, can actually see and follow. Kills and Towers and Positioning and Runes and STUFF. I also seem to parse the DOTA2 information better then I parse LoL's, the window might be annoying to play in, but I can see the heroes and items and stuff clearer as the observer.

[Megrim]

I think I have a spare invite to give out, if anyone is interested.

[Thrawn]

Random draft mode may be my new favorite game mode. (I had never played DotA 1 to experience it in)

You take the pool of champions (remember in DotA everyone owns everyone, so you don't have a limited pool like in League) and you get 20 of them to choose from.  Both teams use that pool and do a 1-2-2-2-2-1 draft.  Simple as that but will make for some much more interesting games since you see different champions than normal without being forced into one random pick.  All it needs now (badly) is the ability to trade picks within your team.

[Llyse]

You could do that in dota1 so I'm sure it's up there on the list

[HaemishM]

Anyone still interested in playing this that hasn't got keys? If so, I got two keys this morning. PM me with your Steam name and I'll see about getting them over to you. First come, first serve.

EDIT: One key left.

[Fordel]

I would take one out BUT all I would do is play bots for 2 hours then never play again. A Waste!

[Malakili]

http://www.theverge.com/gaming/2012/4/20/2961883/dota-2-will-be-free-to-play-with-a-twist

Free to play confirmed.  I think this was pretty expected at this point, especially considering its competition.  It'll be interesting to see what they come up with.

[ezrast]

Some really weird quotes in that article. Steam already lets me keep track of, chat, and leave messages for my friends; tells me about the activities of internet strangers I don't care about; and collects and uses my data in ways I'm only kind of comfortable with. What the hell does Newell think a "traditional social network" is?

[Fordel]

Facebook.

[koro]

I'd really listen to the podcast in that article instead of going on quote snippets. It's quite an interesting podcast anyway.

[Malakili]

I don't know that we've talked about it yet, but the some of this stuff that they are building in to make the spectator experience better is truly impressive.  Being able to jump in an spectate games which are going on is awesome and so outpaces LoL on the issue that it isn't even funny.  I'm currrently as I'm typing this watching a game which has 283 spectators, all of whom and jump in or leave at any point.  Also, there is a "Directed Camera" mode which controls your camera (you can free cam if you want) and everyone who is spectating and using Directed Cam will see the same thing so you can chat about the game, and it is REALLY freaking good at catching all the action - even better than some of the spectators I've seen doing casting and such.  Its just really damned impressive.

[Rasix]

I don't know that we've talked about it yet, but the some of this stuff that they are building in to make the spectator experience better is truly impressive.  Being able to jump in an spectate games which are going on is awesome and so outpaces LoL on the issue that it isn't even funny.  I'm currrently as I'm typing this watching a game which has 283 spectators, all of whom and jump in or leave at any point.  Also, there is a "Directed Camera" mode which controls your camera (you can free cam if you want) and everyone who is spectating and using Directed Cam will see the same thing so you can chat about the game, and it is REALLY freaking good at catching all the action - even better than some of the spectators I've seen doing casting and such.  Its just really damned impressive.

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=22133.0

 

[Malakili]

I don't know that we've talked about it yet, but the some of this stuff that they are building in to make the spectator experience better is truly impressive.  Being able to jump in an spectate games which are going on is awesome and so outpaces LoL on the issue that it isn't even funny.  I'm currrently as I'm typing this watching a game which has 283 spectators, all of whom and jump in or leave at any point.  Also, there is a "Directed Camera" mode which controls your camera (you can free cam if you want) and everyone who is spectating and using Directed Cam will see the same thing so you can chat about the game, and it is REALLY freaking good at catching all the action - even better than some of the spectators I've seen doing casting and such.  Its just really damned impressive.

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=22133.0

 

LoL's spectator mode is a joke by comparison.

[Rasix]

How so?