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Author Topic: DOTA2  (Read 461617 times)
DLRiley
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Reply #70 on: August 17, 2011, 08:49:16 PM

This game is going to be the EVE to LoL's WoW (sorry for all the acronyms). That would make HoN the equivalent of, oh, I dunno, Tabula Rasa.

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Kail
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Reply #71 on: August 17, 2011, 09:28:47 PM

This game is going to be the EVE to LoL's WoW (sorry for all the acronyms). That would make HoN the equivalent of, oh, I dunno, Tabula Rasa.

EVE and WoW are fundamentally different games, though (even TR, from what I hear, is fairly different).  I don't see that difference here, even with denying and gold loss.  I's say it's more like comparing EQ2 to WoW.  Both are based off of the same source and offer the same basic gameplay, but one is the direct sequel to the original and the other is already massively popular.
Ashamanchill
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Reply #72 on: August 17, 2011, 09:39:47 PM

I was using market share as the metric.

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Ingmar
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Reply #73 on: August 17, 2011, 10:32:07 PM

To me, DOTA gameplay looks stale after playing LoL. Even if DOTA has a higher skill cap, who really wants to play with that sort of community?

Don't all these games have shit communities? I mean I kind of feel like you're asking "Why would I post on Stratics when I could go to the VN Boards!"

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Ashamanchill
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Reply #74 on: August 17, 2011, 10:40:07 PM

Ya, but it's kinda like saying everything under 10 degrees celcius is cold. LoL's community may be cold at -5, but HoN's is downright inhospitable at -213 or so.

A poster signed by Richard Garriot, Brad McQuaid, Marc Jacobs and SmerricK Dart.  Of course it would arrive a couple years late, missing letters and a picture but it would be epic none the less. -Tmon
Azuredream
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Reply #75 on: August 17, 2011, 11:35:14 PM

I play mostly bot games and it's rather like a group formed by the RDF in WoW during WotLK. Victory is almost guaranteed and there's virtually no jackassery (or any talk at all, really).

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KallDrexx
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Reply #76 on: August 18, 2011, 05:35:59 AM

Either way, it's definitely out of character for Valve.
Malakili
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Reply #77 on: August 18, 2011, 05:46:48 AM

Either way, it's definitely out of character for Valve.

How so?  Counter Strike has probably the shittiest community of any game I ever played, but they still bought up that team/mod.
Dark_MadMax
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Reply #78 on: August 18, 2011, 07:17:44 AM

I play mostly bot games and it's rather like a group formed by the RDF in WoW during WotLK. Victory is almost guaranteed and there's virtually no jackassery (or any talk at all, really).

It boggles my mind why would you play at all. But to each his own and at leat you dont contribute to the pool of !@&#^@&^ in game (myself included)

Quote
How so?  Counter Strike has probably the shittiest community of any game I ever played, but they still bought up that team/mod.

Really? I mean I played CS since 0.6 beta and never had "community" issues. I mean seriously - you buy gun ,start shooting stuff. You can quit server and join another anytime. You dont need to chat either. I never knew what a shit community is till I started playing MMO. LoL elevated the "cesspool" to a whole new level though
« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 07:20:39 AM by Dark_MadMax »
Malakili
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Reply #79 on: August 18, 2011, 07:33:32 AM



Really? I mean I played CS since 0.6 beta and never had "community" issues. I mean seriously - you buy gun ,start shooting stuff. You can quit server and join another anytime. You dont need to chat either. I never knew what a shit community is till I started playing MMO. LoL elevated the "cesspool" to a whole new level though

We simply don't have a similar experience playing CS then.  I started playing very early as well, and I think the community got WAY worse after it went retail, and never looked back, its been pretty bad ever since, and every once in a while I'll go back and reinstall CS:S and usually within about 10 minutes I remember why I don't like the game anymore, despite it being a mechanically solid shooter - the community makes me want to rip my eyes out.
KallDrexx
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Reply #80 on: August 18, 2011, 09:37:39 AM

How so?  Counter Strike has probably the shittiest community of any game I ever played, but they still bought up that team/mod.

They bought Counter-Strike and released CS:S, which has several "features" (hitbox and aiming changes, etc..) in it to make it more casual friendly.  It's rare that Valve creates and releases a game that is for a hardcore only crowd.

Even then, there is a massive difference between the hardcore-ness of (even the original) counter strike and DOTA
Amaron
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Reply #81 on: August 18, 2011, 11:53:51 AM

It's rare that Valve creates and releases a game that is for a hardcore only crowd.

Valve seems to have some serious love for what they achieved with TF2 so I have to agree.  For them to go the opposite direction in DOTA 2 makes no sense.
Dark_MadMax
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Reply #82 on: August 18, 2011, 01:43:24 PM


We simply don't have a similar experience playing CS then.  I started playing very early as well, and I think the community got WAY worse after it went retail, and never looked back, its been pretty bad ever since, and every once in a while I'll go back and reinstall CS:S and usually within about 10 minutes I remember why I don't like the game anymore, despite it being a mechanically solid shooter - the community makes me want to rip my eyes out.

IMho CS itself became worse after CS:S, but as of community... -Its a straight up FPS,  with almost no downtime and very forgiving penalties for dying, As a result it is very solo friendly and is played stress free. You can even carry whole team and even if you do not you still have a good time - getting frags and killing . MOBA games?  -you are entirely team dependent, you cant leave match early if some afks , trolls ,etc. In lol minimum time investement is 20 minutes. In CS if something annoys me too much I simply leave server and join another one  -all under 30 sec. In LoL  I am stuck.  I find myself raging more than I should.

And as of community -  for CS/TF2 I always had a few favorite servers which had decent population (no tkers/trolls)

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Reply #83 on: August 18, 2011, 03:54:36 PM

They made exactly the game anyone who enjoys dota wanted.  Dota itself is still a great game hindered only by the limitations of being a mod for War3.  I could make the same analogy for Starcraft 1 to Starcraft 2.

I am VERY impressed with the DotaTV aspect of this game.  The majority of the replays that are being posted are not being recorded by someone controlling the camera around the minimap.  That is AI driving the viewpoint unless it is being commentated.  It is significantly better than most e-sports caster at catching the action.
Fordel
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Reply #84 on: August 18, 2011, 04:38:47 PM

Of course the problem is unless your already knee deep in the DotA style games, you have no idea how significant any of the action is.

That's been my problem spectating these games, It's just a jumbled mess, little better then a WoW Arena match.



Maybe there are enough people playing DotA regardless where they won't need to worry about the casual viewer.

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Mosesandstick
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Reply #85 on: August 18, 2011, 05:02:34 PM

That replay feature is unbelievable. Enjoyed it more than the shoutcasting.

This is Valve; they should be aiming for more than the old DOTA community.
DLRiley
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Reply #86 on: August 18, 2011, 05:08:06 PM

That replay feature is unbelievable. Enjoyed it more than the shoutcasting.

This is Valve; they should be aiming for more than the old DOTA community.

My vote as well. People were ready to cry foul when Valve released L4D2, this isn't sounding too good beyond the leet observe mode.
Malakili
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Reply #87 on: August 18, 2011, 05:11:24 PM

That replay feature is unbelievable. Enjoyed it more than the shoutcasting.

This is Valve; they should be aiming for more than the old DOTA community.

My vote as well. People were ready to cry foul when Valve released L4D2, this isn't sounding too good beyond the leet observe mode.

There are estimates that DOTA players outnumber LoL + HoN players, they just are mostly not english speaking.
Mosesandstick
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Reply #88 on: August 18, 2011, 05:29:45 PM

Sure, but DOTA is also an 8 year old map/game. Ideally they'd want to have DOTAs initial playerbase and LoL's growth. Additionally, the revenue you can get per person matters as well, not just the size of your playerbase.
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Reply #89 on: August 18, 2011, 10:47:06 PM

Maybe it's just me, but if HoN didn't grab those players, DOTA2 isn't going to grab those players. Valve is smart enough to know that, or should be. HoN has all the parts of DoTA people hate as well. Denying, mule pets, ect;
Out of the two, HoN was the more "hardcore". And we saw how well that did.

There may very well be more DoTA players than LoL + HoN players combined (I doubt this) but even if there are, they are going to continue to be DoTA players. Unless they are making DoTA2 an exact copy of DoTA, they aren't going to get that group of hardcore players who are still playing an 8+ year old game to jump ship and cross over.

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koro
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Reply #90 on: August 19, 2011, 05:20:27 AM

There may very well be more DoTA players than LoL + HoN players combined (I doubt this) but even if there are, they are going to continue to be DoTA players. Unless they are making DoTA2 an exact copy of DoTA, they aren't going to get that group of hardcore players who are still playing an 8+ year old game to jump ship and cross over.
Icefrog has gone on record many, many times saying that DOTA2 is a "carbon copy" (exact words) of DOTA the First, but with UI improvements, better community and spectator options, and a tutorial/coaching mode as a bone thrown to newbies. Creep denial, animation canceling, orb walking, fog of war fuckery, all those little things that were glitches in the WC3 engine that became part of high-level gameplay are all retained as normal gameplay.
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Reply #91 on: August 19, 2011, 11:51:39 AM

Maybe it's just me, but if HoN didn't grab those players, DOTA2 isn't going to grab those players. Valve is smart enough to know that, or should be. HoN has all the parts of DoTA people hate as well. Denying, mule pets, ect;

Lack of deny and courier are by far the 2 most frustrating aspects of League for me.  Lane control is huge and these are probably the 2 biggest factors to it.
Ashamanchill
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Reply #92 on: August 19, 2011, 12:10:49 PM

Aha! You're one of them!

Seriously though DOTA 2 seems like it would be awesome....if you preferred DOTA or HoN to LoL. It seems to be getting a pretty bad response from LoL players though who aren't DOTA nostalgic.

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Reply #93 on: August 19, 2011, 02:50:42 PM

There may very well be more DoTA players than LoL + HoN players combined (I doubt this) but even if there are, they are going to continue to be DoTA players. Unless they are making DoTA2 an exact copy of DoTA, they aren't going to get that group of hardcore players who are still playing an 8+ year old game to jump ship and cross over.
Icefrog has gone on record many, many times saying that DOTA2 is a "carbon copy" (exact words) of DOTA the First, but with UI improvements, better community and spectator options, and a tutorial/coaching mode as a bone thrown to newbies. Creep denial, animation canceling, orb walking, fog of war fuckery, all those little things that were glitches in the WC3 engine that became part of high-level gameplay are all retained as normal gameplay.
Welp. So much for my interest in this game then. I played HoN. No need to bother with this.

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Typhon
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Reply #94 on: August 19, 2011, 03:46:25 PM

Same here, I'll stick with LoL.  I'm actually pretty happy that all the things I thought were boring/sucked with DOTA are being kept in DOTA2 as it makes my choice dead easy.

As far as a business, my take is that even if they get the full DOTA playerbase... these have people playing the same game for half a dozen years and have shelled out only the War3 box cost, why would Valve imagine that these folks are going to suddenly start buying hats?  Business model does not compute.
Fordel
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Reply #95 on: August 19, 2011, 03:51:13 PM

Is Steam popular in China?

Will it be more popular when DotA 2 comes out on Steam and the supposed millions of DotA players move over?

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Ingmar
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Reply #96 on: August 19, 2011, 03:51:30 PM

People will *always* buy hats. They went for years without a cash shop in TF2, why would these people be any different?

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Prospero
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Reply #97 on: August 19, 2011, 03:52:22 PM

Watching the matches has made me really want tower denial in LoL. I haven't seen that creep denial is all that exciting, or even common (about one creep per wave from the matches I watched), but the ability to deny towers is an interesting mechanic to encourage players to move around the map more. I like the use of money for tp/fort/revive.

I can't see leaving LoL entirely, but I'm definitely looking forward to mixing dota into my gaming rotation.

edit: Speaking of hats... http://www.neutralcreeps.com/2011/08/dota-2-hats-for-team-fortress-2.html
« Last Edit: August 19, 2011, 03:53:53 PM by Prospero »
Megrim
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Reply #98 on: August 19, 2011, 06:51:30 PM

Watching the matches has made me really want tower denial in LoL. I haven't seen that creep denial is all that exciting, or even common (about one creep per wave from the matches I watched), but the ability to deny towers is an interesting mechanic to encourage players to move around the map more. I like the use of money for tp/fort/revive.

I can't see leaving LoL entirely, but I'm definitely looking forward to mixing dota into my gaming rotation.

edit: Speaking of hats... http://www.neutralcreeps.com/2011/08/dota-2-hats-for-team-fortress-2.html

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Reply #99 on: August 20, 2011, 08:24:44 AM

Quote
Creep denial, animation canceling, orb walking, fog of war fuckery, all those little things that were glitches in the WC3 engine that became part of high-level gameplay are all retained as normal gameplay.

That's a mistake. Whether or not one personally enjoys things like denying and animation cancelling (hi, PA!) it's stuff that LoL has forcefully moved the game model past. Going back to denies would be like wandering back to an earlier era of gameplay (like going from WOTLK back to vanilla raiding) and expecting the same model to have the same sway.

Graphics polish won't fix that. On the positive side, DOTA2 will at least murder the shit out of what's left of HoN, so there's that.
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Reply #100 on: August 20, 2011, 10:36:13 AM

Always look on the bright side.

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Reply #101 on: August 20, 2011, 07:39:22 PM

I'm still more than a little flabbergasted that a company that has pushed forward what we consider launch polish and general game design and accessibility would do something so backwards and... just bad. I simply do not understand.
Megrim
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Reply #102 on: August 20, 2011, 08:59:26 PM

That's because you and Samprimary, and a whole other bunch of f13ers think everything that which LoL has done, is for the best and an improvement. Others (a large number of whom, by the looks of things) disagree. Later games have done some things well, but they are a far cry from being unequivocally considered 'better'.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2011, 09:02:54 PM by Megrim »

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tazelbain
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Reply #103 on: August 20, 2011, 09:09:39 PM

Hardcore players always think that way and they are always wrong.

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Megrim
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Reply #104 on: August 20, 2011, 09:15:13 PM

Hardcore players always think that way and they are always wrong.

Which of course explains why DotA is such a massive failure, and no-one likes it.

One must bow to offer aid to a fallen man - The Tao of Shinsei.
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