DOTA2

[Ashamanchill]

Dude, no one is denying DOTA 2 is going to be popular. But it's going to be AoC, or WAR popular, with people making excuses why it's subs are so low, and saying X amount of subs (not sure what the direct translation would be here) is really good for the genre, but they will be secretly disappointed that it doesn't even come close to dethroning the leader.

[Megrim]

Oh really, is that how it's going to turn out? I'm impressed. Though you do confuse me a bit by saying that DotA2 will need to dethrone DotA. It's really just a refinement and slight evolution of the original.

[Ashamanchill]

Ummmm, not DOTA, LoL.

[koro]

The thing about DOTA2 being an exact port of the first DOTA is that it comes with a pre-built audience of millions (mostly Chinese and Russian), and I've seen few to no people who still play DOTA say they're not going to switch to 2; there is literally no downside to doing so.

My main concern is that the community and culture of "we want the game to both be hard to learn and nearly impossible to master because we're manly men and fuck all you carebears" around the game (that seemingly extends from Icefrog all the way down) is going to seriously hamper growth beyond that already-existing fan base. I fear that a high-profile game like DOTA2 on a high-profile service like Steam from a high-profile developer like Valve will get a lot of people interested in it who will play it, realize that the minimum skill level to not be such an actual detriment to your team that your inclusion alone is enough to guarantee a loss before the game even starts is through the roof, and then put it down and likely never touch another MOBA again.

[Flinky]

a lot of people...will play it, realize that the minimum skill level to not be such an actual detriment to your team that your inclusion alone is enough to guarantee a loss before the game even starts is through the roof, and then put it down and likely never touch another MOBA again.

Is that really such a terrible thing? If they don't enjoy it, or aren't interested in investing the time to improve at it, why is it a problem if they stop playing? Its been proven that there's a more than substantial player base that DO enjoy the game for what it is. The game is inherently compeditive, there is a skill base needed to play and that should be acknowledged.

That being said there is supposed to be two modes of game creation supported, one for casual play and one for compeditive. It'd be nice if the new matchmaking system does an alright job of keeping people in games of appropriate skill levels, at least enough to not turn newcomers off a whole genre of gameplay.

[Merusk]

Is that really such a terrible thing?

Only if you want to worry about things like your employees getting paid without charging those "hardcore" enough to play some ridiculous amount.

[Megrim]

Ummmm, not DOTA, LoL.

How do you figure that?

[Vaiti]

Ummmm, not DOTA, LoL.

How do you figure that?

Wait, what? You can't seriously want to argue this can you? What are you actually asking here? Did you forget green text? Do you want some numbers, stats?

[Megrim]

No no, by all means, go ahead. I'd love to see some numbers for worldwide DotA and LoL stats.

[Amaron]

No no, by all means, go ahead. I'd love to see some numbers for worldwide DotA and LoL stats.

LoL is in beta in China and hasn't even had it's first tournament their yet.  Worldwide numbers are still up in the air considering that.   The only numbers for DotA are pretty vague anyways considering most people download the map via battle.net.   Then on LoL's side we just have their "registered" users numbers.

Basically we can look at Riot clearly swimming in cash though and DotA continues to be popular obviously.   The real question is how much money is Valve going to make without the Western casual market going crazy over their super hardcore hats?

[schild]

Edit: Totally just reiterated what Amaron was saying.

In summation though:
I don't think poor people care about hats.

[Ashamanchill]

Ummmm, not DOTA, LoL.

How do you figure that?

I am terribly sorry, I went out for dinner and I kinda got drunk, missing your post in time.

This is kind of hard because Riot provides us with stats, and DOTA kind of can't but here it goes.


The thing is, even if DOTA had ten times the number of users LoL has, it wouldn't matter one lick because they are a mod, while LoL actually makes money off of their product. I predict DOTA 2 will simply not be as profitable (for the reasons we have listed), as LoL, the market leader.

[Megrim]

So hang on, are you saying that a game's worth is measured in the amount of money it makes? Earlier you seemed to be saying that it's about the overall popularity. Because if we are going by popularity, the numbers for DotA as indicated by the discussion here compared to what you've cited for LoL, are quite staggering. I'll quote the relevant part:

Q: How popular is DotA these days? (from china_white)

A: I can only give estimates based on getdota.com usage, because I can't track ingame downloads or fansites or downloads from China. It is roughly estimated (based on the statistics from popular Chinese sites) that the Chinese DotA audience is about 40-50% of the worldwide audience. Not counting China, the playerbase is estimated to be somewhere between 7-11 million. I expect the audience to grow even more in the not too distant future.

However, if you mean to say that the amount of money which LoL makes is an indicator of the richness, value, depth and overall level of fun in something, then I am afraid you and I and everyone else on this website ought to prepare ourselves for a lifetime of eating McDonalds.

[Amaron]

That's a pre LoL quote from years ago.   Back when I played people would just leave DotA games open on War3 to let people download the map after an update.  The rest of the time you'd usually have to go to the website.  Blizzard is the company with all the really useful data.   With them making their own DotA they aren't going to give the info up.

[Megrim]

That was posted in 2010. But I suppose you are right, it probably is a conspiracy by Blizzard to conceal the failing state of DotA.

[Ashamanchill]

My post was concerning you asking how LoL was the genre leader.

As for personal taste.

Seriously though DOTA 2 seems like it would be awesome....if you preferred DOTA or HoN to LoL.

[Megrim]

So how is it the genre leader?

[Azuredream]

I would call it the genre leader because it's a much better game, completely disregarding any popularity/revenue debate.

[Amaron]

That was posted in 2010. But I suppose you are right, it probably is a conspiracy by Blizzard to conceal the failing state of DotA.

You're reading stuff into my posts that isn't there.   All I've said is we have no really useful numbers.   All we really know is DotA is really popular but not as popular as LoL in the west.  Even by Icefrogs best estimates that's true.  That's why LoL is the genre leader.  I'm not sure where you came up with that bizarre conspiracy in all of this though?   I thought I was supposed to be the crazy one here.

[Vaiti]

This is just a silly thing to argue. I'm not biting.

Moving on to other things, I saw mention of various game modes that will be in DoTA2 on release.

DotA 2 Game Modes:

- There will be several modes in DOTA 2 along with Classic DotA mode:

Classic Mode: None of the changes, 100% WC3 Dota

Normal Mode: Orb updates, bug fixes, etc

Easy Mode: No EXP loss from deny, no gold loss on death, etc

All Random All Mid: I give you 1 guess.

Fortress Mode: 1 team is attacking while the other defends, defending team can buy traps, attacking team can buy creeps.

Arena Mode: FFA or teamed death match

Wild Mode: Random heroes with random skills.

Free Mode: No cool downs with no mana cost on skills.

Commander Mode: When you die you are changed into another hero with the same items and same level. The first side to run out of heroes or to lose their base loses.

Now these are just the game modes that will be in at the time of release, and I'm sure there will be more to come after.
While there is no mention of a "no deny" mode, only a no exp lose from denying, I'm betting/hoping at some point (likely very soon after release) that such a mode is added.

The ability for various gamemodes to be played and added easily could be a saving grace here for DoTA2 as far as the more casual crowd is concerned. Then again, it could just add segregation and it being too difficult to find a game server. But, we'll see I guess.

[Prospero]

If nothing else no denial is a day one SourceMod plugin for sure.

[Amaron]

If nothing else no denial is a day one SourceMod plugin for sure.

Are they allowing mods?  I tried looking this up but had no luck.

[Prospero]

This is complete supposition on my part, but I figure they are going to use the same system for Dota2 that they recently rolled out for TF2. Servers can opt to be "quickplay" servers by adhering to a set of rules and registering the servers under their owner's Steam account. Some settings penalize your score with the central authority, and some cause you to be removed from the quickplay list entirely until they are turned off(like no crits.)

My mental picture of the whole thing is you can create a plain vanilla Dota server and make it on the quickplay list, or you can host a server with any crazy maps and plugins you desire and people have to hunt you out. Or maybe turning on certain variables just causes the game to not count towards whatever variant of ELO they have. However they do it I'd be pretty shocked to see their new f2p game not follow in the footsteps of their current f2p title.

[Amaron]

Oh so you're talking about server setting type stuff.   You said mod so I was imagining actual mods.   I'd be very excited if it was modable since the software seems very good at least.

[Vaiti]

Well it is Valve, so here's to hoping. Doesn't seem like something they are against, looking at their track record, if it wasn't moddable that would be breaking from the norm for them. So I'm going to remain high optimistic on the matter.

[Prospero]

SourceMods can be full game mods; the Saxton Hale and prophunt game types are both SourceMod plugins. I did kind of conflate the two. Sorry about that. Having followed TF2 pretty closely I've noticed Valve will usually add variables for contentious settings like crits in TF2. I don't think it will take long for them to do the same for denial.

Suffice to say this should be a pretty hackable game. Gabe Newell has talked frequently about involving the community in asset creation, both skins and other stuff. I suspect we'll see a pretty active creative community around Dota2.

[Margalis]

Sounds like too many modes to me.

Will split the player base and/or a lot of the modes will be neglected / unbalanced / etc. When they have tournaments which mode(s) are they going to use?

It's also kind of silly to call that "easy mode." Why not just call it "if you play this you're a retard mode"? TO be clear about what I mean here, just the name indicates Valve turning their nose up at the mode.

[Megrim]

This is just a silly thing to argue. I'm not biting.

Moving on to other things, I saw mention of various game modes that will be in DoTA2 on release.

DotA 2 Game Modes:

- There will be several modes in DOTA 2 along with Classic DotA mode:

Classic Mode: None of the changes, 100% WC3 Dota

Normal Mode: Orb updates, bug fixes, etc

Easy Mode: No EXP loss from deny, no gold loss on death, etc

All Random All Mid: I give you 1 guess.

Fortress Mode: 1 team is attacking while the other defends, defending team can buy traps, attacking team can buy creeps.

Arena Mode: FFA or teamed death match

Wild Mode: Random heroes with random skills.

Free Mode: No cool downs with no mana cost on skills.

Commander Mode: When you die you are changed into another hero with the same items and same level. The first side to run out of heroes or to lose their base loses.

Now these are just the game modes that will be in at the time of release, and I'm sure there will be more to come after.
While there is no mention of a "no deny" mode, only a no exp lose from denying, I'm betting/hoping at some point (likely very soon after release) that such a mode is added.

The ability for various gamemodes to be played and added easily could be a saving grace here for DoTA2 as far as the more casual crowd is concerned. Then again, it could just add segregation and it being too difficult to find a game server. But, we'll see I guess.

Hey don't look at me, I wasn't the one talking about charts.

The way game modes work in DotA, for those of you who don't know, is this: (now this is assuming that the game will operate in the same way) you start a 'game', invite people or have people join, then once it loads the game creator types in which game mode they would like to play. It is usually advertised in the game name, on the join screen. So you start, join a game, it loads and you type in -cm (captain's mode, typical comp format), and off you go.

Most of the ones listed are already in the original game, with the exception of Fortress Mode I believe. Easy Mode is in, the only difference being that currently you gain xp & gold at a doubled rate from normal. -apem games (that is, All Pick Easy Mode) are probably the most popular format, in actuality.

[Ashamanchill]

Free Mode: No cool downs with no mana cost on skills.

What does that mean exactly? Does it literally mean no CDs on any moves, or am I reading that wrong?

[Megrim]

Yep. It used to be called wtf mode, iirc. So all spells have no cooldowns and no costs.

[K9]

Sounds pretty retarded.

[Lounge]

FYI most of those game modes are already in dota.

You League kids sure are bitter about dota2 being a clone of the first game with a real game client.  Show me on the doll where dota touched you?

[Vaiti]

Sounds like too many modes to me.

Will split the player base and/or a lot of the modes will be neglected / unbalanced / etc. When they have tournaments which mode(s) are they going to use?

It's also kind of silly to call that "easy mode." Why not just call it "if you play this you're a retard mode"? TO be clear about what I mean here, just the name indicates Valve turning their nose up at the mode.

Kind of my thoughts on it as well. But then again, the player base might be substantial enough that it won't perhaps matter.

Did they announce that DoTA2 was going to be f2p? I know they made an announcement they are working on a f2p title and everyone was speculating it was going to be DoTA2, but did they outright come out and say it? A very brief Google failed to provide an answer, or I looked right over it.

[Margalis]

No business model yet.

[Rendakor]

-wtf was awesome; I jumped through all the port-forwarding hoops required to host games in WC3 just so I could play -wtf more often.