League rules discussion

[ezrast]

It might be good to start thinking about what kind of rules we're going to have in season 5. Most importantly, how will we handle odd numbers of signups? The Qualification Round! gets the job done but doesn't feel very elegant, hinging the newbs' inclusion on a single random matchup. As a player, I'd rather put up with the buggy league implementation with odd numbers than have to exclude anyone, but I've never administered such a league so I don't know if that's realistic from Falc's point of view.

Second order of business is how we feel about the feeder league. From another thread:

Falc, one thing I'd like to talk about is raising the TV limit on moving teams from the Feeder League to the main league for Season 5. Since at lot of teams will be either carryovers from as far back as season 1 or 2, why not raise the TV limit to 1350 for Season 5? Right now, I've got a Chaos team at 1220 and my Skaven team is at 1100. With the 1250 limit, I'm soon to be unable to play either of them without bumping up against the limit in case I want to use them later.

I don't think I agree with this. The feeder league has the unintended (?) dynamic that you have to catass a bit in order to start the main league with an optimal team of all doubles rolls or whatever, and as someone who doesn't put much time into BB outside the main league I feel like any increase in the TV limit is just going to put me at an even larger disadvantage than my newb self already is should I decide to roll a new team. I don't think there's a right or wrong answer here, as I'm sure that being able to tailor your team is really nice for people into that, just pointing out that such a change actually makes rerolling less viable for me, not more.

[proudft]

Yeah, I'm also not a big fan of catassing up a perfect 1250 team.  I at least have my 1400ish Khemri to fall back on.  But for Actual New People, should we get any, it seems a bit of a hill for them to climb to get a semi-competitive team going.   Though, I do think inducements are a greater leveler than many of you do.

Some sort of semi-reasonable limit on # of games in the feeder league might be workable, I suppose, though I have no clue what # that would be.  And it's another rule to keep track of, which I am also not a big fan of.  So to sum up, I'm not a lot of help, really. 

[Ingmar]

The other thing about the feeder league rules as they stand, they also lead to making weird decisions while playing feeder games instead of just playing the game, because you don't want the wrong people to level etc. I honestly don't have any good ideas for fixing that though.

[eldaec]

Honestly I think what slows new people is that a majority of players in the league have over 60 games experience.

An experienced player with an 1100 team plus a wizard and a chef, is a hell of a lot scarier than a 1600 team with a coach who only has a 5 game record.

I like a TV limit for entry to the main league because it prevents 40 game plus feeder teams coming across into the one match per week environment without drastic firings, and basically the TV limit holds back experienced players more than new players.

But I would like to see a Qualification Round that gives losers more than one match.

[Sjofn]

It wasn't just one match in the Qualification Round, though. If I remember right, it was best of three. I know I played Merusk twice to get in. I think the way it was handled was alright, to be honest, but it's easy for me to say since I actually qualified. 

I think I'd prefer a games played limit on the feeder teams than a TV limit, thinking about it. Maybe both, I dunno. I do agree that it's harder on new people to play a perfectly cultivated feeder league team, though, partly because the TVs are going to be a lot closer so they don't even get a lot of inducements to help them out, you know?

[Hoax]

The other thing about the feeder league rules as they stand, they also lead to making weird decisions while playing feeder games instead of just playing the game, because you don't want the wrong people to level etc. I honestly don't have any good ideas for fixing that though.

There really is no way to stop people from gaming the system if they want to. Firing linemen that level up or someone who doesn't get doubles etc. working around wasted mvps all that jazz. That's the sort of thing that other people just need to make note of and punish accordingly by fouling and generally roughing up teams that do shit like that.

How have things gone so far with =< 1250 teams that xfer'd in from the feeder league so far?

[Ruvaldt]

I think the rules as they are right now are fine.

Firing linemen that level up without doubles or are otherwise overvalued can happen in the regular league as well as the Feeder League in order to trim TV, and it's actually an important tactic in the game as teams become bloated with TV from Fan Factor.  That's not something I would ever worry about or change my opinion of a team's eligibility.

Placing a game number limit on Feeder League teams coming into the regular season seems like it would really hurt some teams.  Chaos, for instance, not only need a lot of TV to be competitive, but it takes them a lot of games to get that TV as they actually accumulate SPPs slower than most teams.  The same could be said for a lot of bashy teams, like Dwarves or Orcs.  Elves, on the other hand, can wrack up SPPs in a hurry by scoring like madmen and develop a strong team in a shorter timeframe.

The teams from the Feeder League this season have been competitive with regular teams, which was the idea.  I made it to the post season with mine, but lost in the first round; next season I'll make it further.  AndyDavo's team is doing very well, but he won the championship last season with a team that wasn't from the Feeder League at all, so I think that actually speaks to his skill as a coach rather than the strength of his team and how it developed in the Feeder League.

[Sjofn]

Honestly, I'd just as soon have no feeder league teams at all, but that ship sailed.

[Comstar]

I would say increase the limit to 1300 or 1350, but what's the average TV currently and how much has it increased since last season?

Don't increase the current 1750 limit before expenses starts.

[Modern Angel]

Honestly, I'd just as soon have no feeder league teams at all, but that ship sailed.

1250 is the next best thing.

Firmly against. I see no need to use it as much other than a way to have one offs with one another and get a couple levels if someone wants to switch teams.

[Strazos]

I don't think 1250 is horrible now...1350 wouldn't be terrible, but much more beyond that, and people are able to manicure their teams to an unfair degree with meaningless unlimited games when compared to people who've been playing in the league. Lineman didn't roll doubles? No big deal - fire him and level up another. Positional with levels die? No biggie - just grind a few more games.

I think it's good that we have mechanisms to allow people to jump in with teams and be competitive, but there's got to be a limit.

[Ice Cream Emperor]

Elves, on the other hand, can wrack up SPPs in a hurry by scoring like madmen and develop a strong team in a shorter timeframe.

That's one of the advantages of elves/skaven/etc., though -- it helps compensate for the fact that once they get up against higher TV bashy teams, they will be losing players to injury at a higher rate than most higher-AV teams.

I think the 1250 limit is okay. Andy's and Ruvaldt's teams are both fairly ridiculous (Andy's moreso -- two str 4 guard linemen, durrr) but they weren't all built entirely in the feeder league anyways. I would be strongly against raising the limit, and like someone said I think the feeder league is more important for getting new players some actual games than anything.

I do think it would be nice if there was some way to make it less convaluted to trim your team down to the 1250 limit. Allowing people to start with less than 11, but including the Loner merc value in the TV to calculate the limit, would be a good start. Part of the problem now is once you go over 1250 you need a very large amount of money to actually be able to trim your team down -- which means even more games, and is also makes it harder to do so for more fragile teams, since they're less likely to have saved up.

[Ruvaldt]

Elves, on the other hand, can wrack up SPPs in a hurry by scoring like madmen and develop a strong team in a shorter timeframe.

That's one of the advantages of elves/skaven/etc., though -- it helps compensate for the fact that once they get up against higher TV bashy teams, they will be losing players to injury at a higher rate than most higher-AV teams.

Of course.  I'd never argue otherwise.  That's not an argument against the point I was trying to make though: that a limit on the number of matches would ultimately favor one type of team over another.

As a side note, when making The Ex-Presidents I never fired any player because they didn't get doubles or something.  I honestly just got really damned lucky and rolled a lot of doubles with three of my Chaos Warriors.  You can tell that from the fact that my three blodgey CWs have played in every game that the team has played.  Two of them have -MV also, but I still kept them.  Right now I only have one player on the team with a stat increase; I had two before one of them died, but even he wasn't all that spectacular.  I think people are assuming that there is a lot more min-maxing going on in the Feeder League than there really is.

[Sjofn]

Hence my "maybe both" with regards to a limit on games versus TV.

[AndyDavo]

I think you guys are missing the point, you need to answer a question about the feeder league before deciding its fate. I think the question is thus,
 
What is the function of the feeder league?
 
My answer;
 
It is two-fold, one, to give F13 members a place to play each other, and only each other, since a great many of you do not want to play "outsiders". Two, it is a place to create a team to play in the main divisions with a competitive team from the get go.
 
Now it does its first function real well, other than maybe having more people able to validate teams so the lag between team creation and activation is lower, this is fine.
 
The second bit however i think it does NOT. Why? Because when people reroll / new people enter, they are at a disadvantage due to TV. I have had a look down all 32 teams that finished this season (viewable if you search F13 season 4) and if you look at the TV's only 3 teams are below 1250 TV.  The average is between 1540 and 1580.  I would not like to advocate a TV cap increase to the average but i  do think that putting it to around 1400 would be fairer  based upon the league as it currently stands.
 
I would also like to just talk about the min/maxing that people have talked about.  As I remember my personal team that I am using this season I was careful to get the team just under 1250 but I only played 6 games with the team. This is hardly time to be making the perfect 1250 team and I don't remember ever firing anyone who didn't get a double or whatever. I think that this issue, as some people see it, can be easily manage by one simple rule. Has the team played more than X number of games (imo 15 is waaaay more than enough), I think that common sense does need to be a rule here because some people physically don't have the time to be playing loads of games outside of the main league so the X number of games could be also based on how many teams do you have in the feeder division. For example, I play a lot and if I was to say have 5 teams in the feeder then picked the best one, that would be more of an advantage than say some one who can only squeek the time to play one team and has to use that.
 
I would just say now that I know my english isn't the best but please, if you going to criticise this post please do so for its conceptual ideas not its bad grammar

[Llyse]

I have to agree with Ruvaldt and disagree with Andy.

1. Min/maxing in the feeder league is actually pretty rare (see Ruvaldt and Andy, lucky rolls and only 6 games played.

2. We shouldn't increase TV just because average TV in the main league is higher because of 2 things:
    a: teams in the main league have a set match schedule and can't tune as much
    b: coaches in the main league are not all min/maxers and have bloat


Look at Megrim for example, his HE team this season is a fresh team with no feeder league participation and has done well (obviously skewed from coach ability).

If we increase the TV it just makes min maxing even easier which doesn't help the true beginners. If TV was increased to 1350 or higher I could get a pretty monster team which obviously doesn't fit spirit of f13 main league.

So keep the feeder league entry and keep it as it is.

1. TV is 1250
2. Have at least 11 players
3. Have 0 gold

Simple (Falc you are a genius for coming up with it in the first place!) 

[ezrast]

Two, it is a place to create a team to play in the main divisions with a competitive team from the get go.

Just for clarification, what do you mean here when you say a "competitive" team? Are you just referring to equal TV? Are leagues more competitive when all teams have similar TVs going in? The attitude around here seems to be that a good coach can even up all but the most severe TV disparities through proper use of inducements. I guess my issue is that I don't understand what problem a TV limit increase would be trying to solve.

[AndyDavo]

My thoughts were that it would be good for the less experienced coaches to have better teams coming into the main league.  Me personally would be ok with giving a tv1000 team a whirl. But I like a good challenge!

[ezrast]

That makes sense actually, since it seems to be the newer players that balk at the big TV differences. Which also makes sense, since newbs are less likely to use inducements correctly.

Still, for me it doesn't outweigh the "I built my team one game per week, uphill, butt naked in the snow, and you should have to as well!" factor. Heck, maybe I'll roll a 1000tv team next season just to see what it's like now.

[AndyDavo]

That makes sense actually, since it seems to be the newer players that balk at the big TV differences. Which also makes sense, since newbs are less likely to use inducements correctly.

Still, for me it doesn't outweigh the "I built my team one game per week, uphill, butt naked in the snow, and you should have to as well!" factor. Heck, maybe I'll roll a 1000tv team next season just to see what it's like now.

This is very true.

i suspect that the 1250 limit was put in place a while back however, when the average tv of most teams was lower. It would make sense that it moved with the times. I would just add that i am not really thinking of rerolling so to me this is a moot point. However it will make the league harder from my perspective (thus better) if everyone were using better skiled teams. Looking at my results this season does tell me that the more challenging games were vs people with similar / higher TV than me, the TV 1000 new people got raped.

[Bann]

Have we ever discussed the idea of declaring everyone plays a new team in season X? Or if we are steady around 30 or even grow, move to multiple leagues with promotion and relegation?

edit: Or what about something like a team ought to be retired after x(5?) seasons? make a new f13 old and busted league for teams retiring out of the main league and have one off tourneys or treat it like a high TV feeder league.

[HaemishM]

Two, it is a place to create a team to play in the main divisions with a competitive team from the get go.

Just for clarification, what do you mean here when you say a "competitive" team? Are you just referring to equal TV? Are leagues more competitive when all teams have similar TVs going in? The attitude around here seems to be that a good coach can even up all but the most severe TV disparities through proper use of inducements. I guess my issue is that I don't understand what problem a TV limit increase would be trying to solve.

Since I brought it up, I'll explain my reasoning.

I have two feeder leagues teams bumping right up against the TV limit for next season - Chaos at 1220 and Skaven at 1210. At best I can get maybe one more game in with each team before I have to put them on hiatus to keep from bumping up against the TV limit if I decide to use either for an F13 season. I built both teams (and created a Necro team) for the purpose of joining the league - or at least seeing if I want to play that particular side in the league.

We talk about coaching skill making a huge difference and it does - especially familiarity with your team AND with the play style of other teams. That's only done by playing your team and playing lots of games against other teams. Chaos plays so differently from Skaven which plays way differently than High Elves, etc. TV is only part of bridging the gap between really experienced coaches like AndyDavo and noobie coaches like Paelos (or me when I started the f13 league last season). Experience with the team your playing and against other teams makes a world of difference, probably a lot more than TV. Adding TV limit would give me another 3-4 games with those teams. And since teams that return to the league for future seasons will have a higher TV because of their participation in the league, the disparity between feeder league's 1250 TV and the most experienced teams will be greater - something I don't think inducements adequately bridge especially with inexperienced coaches vs. experienced.

Hey, I'm fine if it stays at 1250 - but I think a bump to 1300 for Season 5 and 1350 for season 6 isn't a big deal. Min-maxing is much less of a deal to me than coach experience.

[Ice Cream Emperor]

I think a hard reset on the league could be interesting, but honestly it is a bit of a kick in the nuts to the people who have been struggling with slow-starting teams, or who are just in general fairly attached to their team.

On the other hand nothing would stop us from having a brand-new-team season and then afterwards reverting back to our old teams, etc., if we ever feel the need for greater variety in the league.

As someone with an if-not-bloated-than-certainly-pretty-crappily-developped mid-high TV team I am perhaps a little biased about raising the feeder league TV cap. But I agree that if the goal is to keep the league competitive, a slight raise to the cap or some other concessions to make it easier to squeeze a team in might be a good idea.

[Megrim]

We talk about coaching skill making a huge difference and it does - especially familiarity with your team AND with the play style of other teams. That's only done by playing your team and playing lots of games against other teams. Chaos plays so differently from Skaven which plays way differently than High Elves, etc. TV is only part of bridging the gap between really experienced coaches like AndyDavo and noobie coaches like Paelos (or me when I started the f13 league last season). Experience with the team your playing and against other teams makes a world of difference, probably a lot more than TV. Adding TV limit would give me another 3-4 games with those teams. And since teams that return to the league for future seasons will have a higher TV because of their participation in the league, the disparity between feeder league's 1250 TV and the most experienced teams will be greater - something I don't think inducements adequately bridge especially with inexperienced coaches vs. experienced.

Hey, I'm fine if it stays at 1250 - but I think a bump to 1300 for Season 5 and 1350 for season 6 isn't a big deal. Min-maxing is much less of a deal to me than coach experience.

There is nothing stopping you from playing those teams in the Feeder League though. If the purpose is to learn how a team plays, there is little difference (insofar as most players and most teams are concerned) between scheduled league play and free matchmaking. You are still able to face a variety of opponents, in a spread of team value relationships. If anything, it is probably better for learning a new team given that one can play more games in a given space of time opposed to a scheduled league.

The concern here, by the sounds of it, is that people don't like playing against higher-valued opponents when they come into the league with 'low' value teams. Players still equate team value with team power, which while representative to an extent, is not entirely accurate. It is intimidating to have to face an opponent stacked with skills and 500+ value higher than you - but this is a psychological barrier, moreso than a game-mechanic one.

Furthermore, learning how to use Inducements correctly is actually (at least in my view) a very important skill to have, and this goes hand-in-hand with learning correct team value management. The amount of times I've seen people going into a game with ~400 in bonus cash and blowing it all on Morg when they could have spent that difference so much more effectively, is depressing.

Finally, keep in mind that matching by TV is not actually a good idea, and the system was not designed with this in mind. There is supposed to be a certain flux within the team value structure of a league, and the power of teams waxes and wanes depending on those differences.

[HaemishM]

Teams in the feeder leagues are rarely going to have much in inducements to use, especially teams being built for the 1250 TV limit because often those teams will be the same TV level or close enough to not matter. The last 4 or 5 matches with my Skaven I didn't have enough in inducements to buy broodweiser babes. The only place to get that kind of disparity is currently the league.

[Comstar]

Are we now at the point of needing divisions between High TV and low TV teams, or probably better, High Win teams in one division and Low Win teams in the other division? We've got teams about to pass 2000 TV (which as they say, is right when Chaos starts to get interesting). The play-off's would then be the meeting of the divisions.

[Ruvaldt]

I've never been a fan of making divisions that were high TV or high win and its opposite.  Ultimately it leads to a lot of good teams not making it to the playoffs and some others making it to the playoffs when their performance didn't warrant their berth.  No Seattle Seahawks in the f13 league.   

Also, I think that coaches truly do improve by playing other coaches that possess greater experience and/or skill.  I, for one, have learned most of what I know about the game by playing people who either tied or beat me.  If my division was lacking in those one or two hardened veterans in previous seasons I wouldn't be as good as I am now.

[Modern Angel]

TV is in no way an indication of actual effectiveness, which varies wildly between teams. I didn't fully buy that when I was advocating for a cap last year; I was completely and totally wrong.

Why are we wanting to micromanage this further? I don't feel as though anything is busted. You're always going to hit the cap, no matter what you set it to. So we raise it to 1300 now. Then we need to raise it to 1500 because a couple people are at 1270 and need to get higher. It makes the entire enterprise fruitless. Keep it 1250 or lift it altogether, and I'd prefer it at 1250. No half-measures.

Re: Butting against the limit. If it's a matter of needing more hands-on experience with a given team/race and your team is at 1220 or whatever (as my goblins are) then... make another team of the same race. Play them in perpetuity in the Feeder League.

[Ice Cream Emperor]

Re: Butting against the limit. If it's a matter of needing more hands-on experience with a given team/race and your team is at 1220 or whatever (as my goblins are) then... make another team of the same race.

Yes, what he said. I think the comment about experience counting for more than TV is accurate -- but you don't need to raise the TV cap to let you play more games with a new team, assuming you have the time to play those games otherwise. Just run a few teams up the TV ladder -- maybe the second one will end up with extra-awesomer skills!

[Sjofn]

Heck, maybe I'll roll a 1000tv team next season just to see what it's like now.

I didn't find it too bad. Hell, having a million in inducements against IainC (and then winning) was probably the highlight of my season.  However, it's one of those things that's gonna depend on what team you pick, probably. Chaos is (apparently) pure shit at 1k TV, for example.

[Llyse]

Since TV cap has been discussed and we probably need a poll or executive decision from Falc we should probably discuss the selection process on odd team numbers.

I don't have an opinion on this but are the ones knocked out (Merusk?) interested in trying again?

Also will we stick to playoffs and failoffs? (it seemed like a success actually).

Finally is top 4 in each division too much or fine for playoffs?

I like picking the top 4 in each the divisions if we continue having failoffs otherwise top 2 for playoffs only

[Ruvaldt]

I think this last season was the best yet.  The playoffs are large enough to not seem overly difficult to break into and it offers a chance for wild cards that are still good teams to advance.  No teams got through that I thought didn't deserve a playoff berth.  The Failoffs allow teams with lesser records to develop further, which should help them in later seasons, and more importantly it keeps everyone playing and having fun.  Everyone has something to do in the post-season this way.

I thought the Qualification Round! was fair.  As long as people play more than one game, I'm fine with it continuing if it is needed, and it serves the dual benefit of giving new teams/coaches a few extra games to develop their team if they make it through.  This is the point of view of someone who hasn't gone through it though so I would give more credence to Dusematic and Merusk's opinions on the matter.  I think those were the two eliminated during the last Qualification Round!

[HaemishM]

When discussing TV, you have to remember this is a Games Workshop game. Some teams are just goddamn better than others. Chaos at 1000 TV sucks monkey ass. At 1250, they are BARELY able to hold their own with a few skills. After having gotten beaten in the Failoffs by a Norse team with every player on the pitch having at least one skill, if not 3 or 4, those extra TV do make a difference. It's not like I'm saying raise it a great deal. 50 points? That's at best 2 skills or 1 really good damn doubles roll. It's not like I won't play if we don't raise it, I just think a rise after another season of experience for teams carrying over isn't a bad thing.

Qualification round is a very good idea, and I say keep it as is. I also say keep the top 4 teams going to the playoffs and keep the Failoffs going.

[Sjofn]

I definitely think the Failoffs should be here to stay, so thank you, AndyDavo, for suggesting them. It was a nice consolation prize ... especially for me, as I could reassure myself it was fine I just missed the playoffs, I would kick ass in the Failoffs ... and promptly choked like I was IainC or something. (I say that with love, IainC! )

Also I feel like top four to the playoffs was a good thing. It kept my division interesting all the way through the last day, top two would've made it cease to be a concern much earlier. It's hard for me to say for sure, of course, as this was my first season and I've not had to play the Other Way.

[ezrast]

No teams got through that I thought didn't deserve a playoff berth.

I don't mean to be constantly self-deprecating, but with a record of 2-2-3 and a season of fairly average play I never saw myself as standing much of a chance. I think playoffs would be more special and exciting if they were limited to top 25%, though I won't complain too loudly about this one.