Prime Battle for Dominus from PitchBlack games

[Merusk]

Seems sensible to me.  Don't make an "I quit" thread just to drama troll or because you don't feel special enough or think your points would be lost without such teenage melodrama.

Not really, it turns 'ex-players who will get back for next expansion' into 'pissed ex-players who badmouth your game in a medium you have no control over and never come back'. Most people make "I quit" posts to convince themselves that they want to quit, because on some level they are still interested/passionate about the game. The same "interested/passionate" that brings them back for the next expansion when they manage to somewhat forget what pissed them off in the first place. You slam the door while they are on the way out and you can kiss your re-subs goodbye. I also imagine such policy might turn first serious community issue (see: monocles) into game-killing event.

I got a feeling we will soon find out if it possible to kill a title with idiotic community management. I suspect that it isn't - Abashi didn't manage to kill EQ, Ghostcrawler didn't put a dent into WoW subs and I don't imagine that Sanya would be any different regardless of level of douchebagery in her new title.

You can make all those points in posts without invoking the drama llama like a 5-year old, with a sulky "I don't like this, I quit!" post.  Given how emotionally stunted you are, it's not surprising you can't concieve of that fact.

[Segoris]

I'm on the fence on the rules. I love them but I realize how they can be pretty detrimental to a healthy player base. Besides that, I'm definitely interested in this.

the internet has already at least half stolen fag(got) away from hate speech and I'd like to see them finish the job.

While I'm not a fan of the word personally, I'll just go ahead and paraphrase General Disarray - South Park did it!

[WindupAtheist]

Also, the word 'negro' is so firmly entrenched in US language that it will never change in its use of identifying the coloured folk. 

The words negro and colored never happened to acquire any other popular usages. The vastly more offensive word "nigger" did, however, and a much longer and more serious campaign still has never managed to get a certain subset of black people to stop using it. The only reason the new usage hasn't been absorbed by white culture like every other bit of black slang in the last hundred years is because it's come into existence while an extraordinarily powerful taboo still hangs over the word.

The word faggot has acquired a secondary meaning without ever having held such significant taboo status. Maybe you think it should have, but it didn't, and now the cat is out of the bag as far as that secondary meaning goes. You can try to alter the course of the language and create such a taboo through the power of lecturing if you want, but good fucking luck with that.

You're better off getting really offended when someone uses faggot to demean people attracted to their own gender, letting it slide when someone uses it to demean people who kill them in video games, and letting the word change meaning. You say things every day that would have had someone wanting to beat the shit out of you a few hundred years ago.

It is entirely possible that in the year 2100 the President of the United States will get up in front of a crowd and say "I have met with the President of Russia, and he is my nigger!" and no one will bat an eye. It will be no stranger than the fact that you can tell someone that their mother is "nice" and not get punched in the face the way you would a few hundred years ago.

[Stabs]

The word Nigga was moving into white culture about 10 years ago. I took offence to someone using it on a Diablo 2 site (the Lurker Lounge) after which they apologised to me in a PM and stopped using it. The thread where I objected meanwhile had turned out like this one with one side citing Eminem as proof and the other side reminding everyone what Martin Luther King died for.

It was an awesome thread, WUP, you should have been there.

[UnSub]

You're better off getting really offended when someone uses faggot to demean people attracted to their own gender, letting it slide when someone uses it to demean people who kill them in video games, and letting the word change meaning. You say things every day that would have had someone wanting to beat the shit out of you a few hundred years ago.

There's no guarantee that the use in one context changes the use in the other. Both are insults.

However, I won't stand in the way of internet troll rights to call people fags because they want a cheap way to push buttons. Reconsided my statement, and although I recognise it probably won't change anyone's already entrenched position, these kind of things only improve if people stop doing them. One of Sanya's points was that the internet only becomes nicer if we act nicer, which I agree with.

My point in that post was the same as yours - words change meaning, fall in and out of use. At one point, calling a black person 'coloured' was considered the polite way of referring to race; now it's a loaded term, filled with historical context.  

EDIT: Reconsideration.

[Lantyssa]

Willful ignorance.  Lovely.

The word hasn't taken a new meaning.  It's still a shortened way of calling someone gay and implying it's a Bad Thing.  The sting may be lessened as kids are generally more tolerant about such social issues, but it's still a negative connotation.  Trying to argue otherwise is just the homophobic form of "I'm not a racist -- I just say really demeaning things about people who aren't white".

Yeah, you might have gay friends, but you're still a fucking ass.

[Outlawedprod]

The thread where I objected meanwhile had turned out like this one with one side citing Eminem as proof and the other side reminding everyone what Martin Luther King died for.  It was an awesome thread, WUP, you should have been there.

Strangely enough I feel as though I've seen an increase in the use of nigga or nigger in-game and on forums over the last 10 years.  It's almost like the kids are using it because they know it will get someone to "rage" about it. It was very sparingly used when I first started playing online games in the mid 90s.  The art of trolling is definitely weaker these days.

obligatory boondocks clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5FR1LGsT7E

[Modern Angel]

Yeah, you might have gay friends, but you're still a fucking ass.

People who play VIDYA GAMES are stunted man-babies. Tres surprise.

[sinij]

Seems sensible to me.  Don't make an "I quit" thread just to drama troll or because you don't feel special enough or think your points would be lost without such teenage melodrama.

Not really, it turns 'ex-players who will get back for next expansion' into 'pissed ex-players who badmouth your game in a medium you have no control over and never come back'. Most people make "I quit" posts to convince themselves that they want to quit, because on some level they are still interested/passionate about the game. The same "interested/passionate" that brings them back for the next expansion when they manage to somewhat forget what pissed them off in the first place. You slam the door while they are on the way out and you can kiss your re-subs goodbye. I also imagine such policy might turn first serious community issue (see: monocles) into game-killing event.

I got a feeling we will soon find out if it possible to kill a title with idiotic community management. I suspect that it isn't - Abashi didn't manage to kill EQ, Ghostcrawler didn't put a dent into WoW subs and I don't imagine that Sanya would be any different regardless of level of douchebagery in her new title.

You can make all those points in posts without invoking the drama llama like a 5-year old, with a sulky "I don't like this, I quit!" post.  Given how emotionally stunted you are, it's not surprising you can't concieve of that fact.

6. "Goodbye" threads. Any thread in which the original poster is announcing his intent to quit the game/quit reading about the game will result in immediate thread removal and the author's permanent suspension from the forums. Just to make sure he means it.

There is very clearly no gray areas in the rule. Any thread, even "thank you for all the fun times" falls under this rule.

[Modern Angel]

Good. Email your friends in game, post on your guild site, send a letter of thanks to the company that made the game. Fuck right off of the forums.

[sinij]

Good luck fighting player base, Sanya. That what community team should be doing, right?

I understand she is trying to create positive forum environment, but instead she will end up with UO-Stratics level of "Peachines" - not a community but a set of one-dimensional sycophants.  This alone is not enough to kill the game, but it certainly won't help it any ether.

[Paelos]

Good luck fighting player base, Sanya. That what community team should be doing, right?

I understand she is trying to create positive forum environment, but instead she will end up with UO-Stratics level of "Peachines" - not a community but a set of one-dimensional sycophants.  This alone is not enough to kill the game, but it certainly won't help it any ether.

I don't think that's true. You can have forums without having rampant lunacy. The official forums shouldn't be focused around opinions of the game. They should be an information source that people use to connect with each other or report bugs, and as a source for developers to release information to the public. That's it.

[Engels]

I get a giggle thinking of sinij giving Weathers advice on community relations. Its adorable.

[Xanthippe]

While I bemoan the festering, fetid sewage that infests some mmo communities, a zero tolerance policy isn't going to fix it.  Zero tolerance policies are generally idiotic.  Better to have vague community standards when one is set to be judge and jury/God of the forums than to explicitly attempt to lay out every instance of how or what is not allowed, and refuse to play with forum-lawyers.

This will be interesting.  I think it's the wrong approach. 

I also think that the emphasis lately of protecting gays from bullying is misguided, because there is no shortage of bullying going on.  (I'm not just referring to the games community here; my daughter's middle school is very heavily into protecting gay kids from being bullied - other kids, not so much.  So if you're gay, it's all "oh you poor thing" but if you're not, it's "toughen up!".  I'd like to see the emphasis on ending bullying, not just on "don't pick on gays."

Where does the word "pussy" fall?  Is it homophobic? Anti-woman? Which protected class does this word offend?  It has a very specific meaning, similar to "wuss" only stronger.  Is there another word that means the same thing?

I'm old enough to see more than a little irony in people who are described as "gay" complaining about the word "gay" being co-opted to mean "stupid."  (Words change meaning over time, and although it still makes me cringe to hear it, I've been fighting against this usage for 20 years. My kids aren't allowed to say it, but I hear people in their 30s use it routinely.)  "Gay" has meant 3 completely different things in my lifetime.

[Xanthippe]

One more thought.  How many thoughtful posts in F13 would be deleted under those rules? So many that this community would cease to be.

Those rules are really dumb.

[Modern Angel]

As a non-gay person, you don't get to decide what offends gay people. Insert black, Asian, Latino, etc, etc there if you prefer. That's really the beginning and end of the conversation. There's no argument to be had here. It's also private property. If Sanya wants to ban the word "the" from the forums, that's her right. This really isn't a free speech issue.

Counter-point on zero tolerance policies: Elitist Jerks. If you've played WoW and you've ever gotten decent information there, you have draconian mods to thank.

[Xanthippe]

As a non-gay person, you don't get to decide what offends gay people. Insert black, Asian, Latino, etc, etc there if you prefer. That's really the beginning and end of the conversation. There's no argument to be had here. It's also private property. If Sanya wants to ban the word "the" from the forums, that's her right. This really isn't a free speech issue.

Counter-point on zero tolerance policies: Elitist Jerks. If you've played WoW and you've ever gotten decent information there, you have draconian mods to thank.

I'm not objecting to these rules either on the basis of a free speech issue (because it's not, as you point out) or on the basis of having draconian mods.  I'm objecting to the rules as laid out as being silly.

I have no problem with a mod saying "I'm the mod and I decide, end of story."  I have problems with a mod attempting to control the uncontrollable by laying out silly rules for a zero tolerance policy.

Zero tolerance policies don't work properly and can also be exploited.

[Modern Angel]

It's completely controllable within her corner of the internet. If I have a userbase on my forums of 10k posters, damned straight it's controllable. It's absolutely proven to be controllable on other sites (like the aforementioned EJ) with userbases of 10x what she's liable to get.

"Don't say faggot" and "don't post goodbye posts" don't strike me as terribly onerous rules.

[Mrbloodworth]

Most will never use the forums to post. Read, sure.

[Hutch]

Elitist Jerks isn't the same animal. They don't have to deal with 99% of the "drama llama" material. People don't go there to post "I Quit", and they don't go there to whinge to the devs about the perceived-imbalance-or-nerf of the day.

"Draconian" at EJ means that they obsess about content-free posts and grammar mistakes. Mods at the official forums wish they had enough hours in the day to get to that level of minutiae.

[WindupAtheist]

There's no guarantee that the use in one context changes the use in the other. Both are insults.

So? The word was an insult hundreds of years before it was used to refer specifically to gays. Assuming it doesn't go the way of "blatherskite" or "scabrous" anytime soon, that period in the 20th century and the first part of the 21st where it referred specifically to gays (because those silly cavemen had a problem with that back then) will be a footnote.

Language reflects the attitudes of the people, not the other way around. You're not going to Newspeak people into a different attitude even if you could somehow make them quit saying faggot. By the same token, when attitudes do change, the fact that faggot slid back into use as a nonspecific insult isn't really going to mean shit to anyone.

Yeah, you might have gay friends, but you're still a fucking ass.

The couple of gay friends I've had have thrown the word faggot around plenty, not in any sort of ironic sense, and have basically shrugged at me when I asked what the deal was. They weren't television characters or professional activists, and didn't feel compelled to change their language based on what they like to fuck. I guess they didn't get their handbooks and decoder rings in the mail when they came out.

I'm sorry, I know it melts your brain, but lots of people who think gays should be treated exactly like everyone else and have every right straight couples do will say that WoW rogues are all faggots and not give it a second thought. Furthermore they're not going to give a rat's ass what you think about it. Who the fuck are you? What the fuck do they care if you're offended? They weren't talking about your group, piss off.

[Paelos]

This forum is what it is because we have people who self-police at times, and moderators who take out the trash.

That and we're generally an older group than your average forum. Although, I think I was 23 when I found WT.o

[Modern Angel]

The thought of explaining privilege and social constructs to you makes me want to stab myself to death, so I won't do that, WUA. I'll just point out that you're going to be exactly like your crazy uncle who wishes he could still say nigger in public in ten years. The one who says that he hears black people refer to lazy black people in their neighborhoods as niggers so IT MUST MEAN LAZY! I don't expect you to change your mind. I just want to point out that you're not going to turn back the clock, faggot IS an offensive word and the rest of the world will judge people for their insistence on not changing with the social times.

And people who play too many video games are still stupid man-babies.

[Lantyssa]

I'm sorry, I know it melts your brain, but lots of people who think gays should be treated exactly like everyone else and have every right straight couples do will say that WoW rogues are all faggots and not give it a second thought. Furthermore they're not going to give a rat's ass what you think about it. Who the fuck are you? What the fuck do they care if you're offended? They weren't talking about your group, piss off.

And a lot of people do think <insert least favorite group here> should be shit on.  I can't force people to forget their prejudices any more than I can force how they speak.  I can speak up when they act like it's no big deal, because it is, and people do get hurt by those with the attitude.

I've got friends who throw around words and act inappropriately, but I know they harbor no ill will and don't care.  Much like you.  I can deal with that.  Other though actually believe those words and because idiots throw them around without thinking, they take them to heart and get emboldened to actually hurt others.

Your gay friends have one huge advantage in being able to call one another faggots.  They're gay.  It's about reclaiming the word.  Many groups which have been on the receiving end of such language do so.  You can use it around them and their friends and be fine.  They know you and your feelings.  Try walking into the middle of a country western bar and start calling people that.  Do it with bile and acting like you mean it.  If you walk out with all your teeth intact I'll be impressed.  Because even a drunken hick can tell when someone's trying to put them down, and calling people your word of choice isn't a compliment.

[sinij]

Modern Angel , I hate to stop you from further vilifying WUA, but you need to have your head checked if you believe half the things you typed here. You must be doing community organizing/sensitivity training for a living and bought into that drivel.

[Mrbloodworth]

I heard there was a MMO coming out called: Prime Battle for Dominus.

But i still have no idea what its about yet.

[sinij]

I heard there was a MMO coming out called: Prime Battle for Dominus.

But i still have no idea what its about yet.

Judging from this thread its mostly about fags.

[Outlawedprod]

I heard there was a MMO coming out called: Prime Battle for Dominus. But i still have no idea what its about yet.

Forum moderation?

[Der Helm]

I heard there was a MMO coming out called: Prime Battle for Dominus. But i still have no idea what its about yet.

Forum moderation?

I'd play that.

[WindupAtheist]

I just want to point out that you're not going to turn back the clock, faggot IS an offensive word and the rest of the world will judge people for their insistence on not changing with the social times.

Have you reconciled the fact that the same demographic group that tends to be most supportive of gay rights, that is to say the young, is also the group that Sanya can't get to quit calling each other fags on the internet without dropping the mod bomb on them? It's not like Grandpa told everyone stories of how getting shot running up the beach at Normandy "fagged up" his whole year and the kids just picked up the terminology. The kids made that up on their own. And it was Grandpa who hated gays, the kids don't give a shit.

Your gay friends have one huge advantage in being able to call one another faggots.  They're gay.  It's about reclaiming the word.

No. I'm not talking about the whole "black guys calling each other nigger" effect. I'm talking about "I was using fag as a synonym for dipshit and didn't stop when I came out" and me being puzzled and getting back a shrug. Hell I remember sitting next to one friend's super butch out-as-fuck girlfriend (she was super clingy and would get pawned off on me to hang out when my friend wanted some time to herself) watching UFC, and the two dudes are fighting over who gets to "mount" and she goes "Man these guys look like faggots!" I'm just like "Seriously, I know technically that word doesn't apply to you, but... like... what?" and she just goes "Dude whatever."

I don't know. I forget why we were talking about this. But yes, I've known some gay people who spoke the same way other people of their age group did, and who didn't suddenly become offended by it when they came out.

Try walking into the middle of a country western bar and start calling people that.  Do it with bile and acting like you mean it.  If you walk out with all your teeth intact I'll be impressed.  Because even a drunken hick can tell when someone's trying to put them down, and calling people your word of choice isn't a compliment.

I could also probably walk up to that drunken hick and be like "You're such a fucking Hessian! Yeah you're such a German fucking mercenary in the Revolutionary war! Hey look this guy is a fucking Hessian!" with genuine bile and get my ass beat. Because he's a drunken hick. That's beside the point though. Of course it's not a compliment. It's just not an insult that applies specifically to gays in the minds of a lot of younger people. I mean it does in the minds of drunken hillbillies, but it's not like anyone is claiming that it's not still used as a slur against gays by anyone.

Frankly I think there should be a "Lawmakers: Quit being such faggots about gay marriage!" campaign. Steal the word away from people actually using it as a slur, and provide me with amusement in the process. "Senator Hurfman, you recently voted in favor of a ban on gay marriage." Yes that's right. "We just wanted to know, why are you such a fucking faggot about this?"

Holy shit, that would be awesome.  

[Amaron]

Seems sensible to me.  Don't make an "I quit" thread just to drama troll or because you don't feel special enough or think your points would be lost without such teenage melodrama.

It's quite sensible and will still end badly.

[Rasix]

The discussion not related to this game will stop now.

[sinij]

This discussion is interesting, yet another derivative mmorpg is not. Why must you hate funfags?

[UnSub]

Seems sensible to me.  Don't make an "I quit" thread just to drama troll or because you don't feel special enough or think your points would be lost without such teenage melodrama.

It's quite sensible and will still end badly.

Agreed. Although probably developed as a policy to stop the "I QUIT!!!1!!1!" dramatics, it also runs into the sphere of someone doing a more thoughtful "Goodbye to the community"-style posts. Or the "goobye - I'm taking off for six months". (Or even the favoured "goodbye, I'm off on military service for the next year")Because if you issue blanket bans you are getting rid of potentially sensible community members and if you enforce it selectively you are playing favourites.

Sometimes being part of the community is saying goodbye.

Also opens the door to hilarity when Sanya (or any dev) leaves and has to choose between breaking her rules or posting a goodbye thread.

[Lantyssa]

Well, there is a technical difference between a "I hate this game and quit" and "I'm taking a break".  Both in intent and style.