Another One Bites the Dust: SWG Edition!

[Evildrider]

That crap was crazy.  I got lucky on both my jedi and had to grind 6 classes on one and 7 on the other :D

[Raph]

There was also a desire to not cannibalize EQ, and make the game different.

I kind of figured on this.   Did you guys feel at the time that SWG should of tried to be the first mass market MMO?    What I mean is, was there a conscious decision (due to risk/whatever) to give up on the idea of making SWG much bigger than EQ?   Or did it just not really occur to anyone inside SOE at that point?

I feel that WoW caught everyone by surprise of course but I still felt it was clear that the market was ready for a big game anyways.   It's feels like the worst problem was that Lucas didn't have many options besides SoE to work with.

The intent was absolutely to make the big mass market MMO. Making a combat only game seemed at the time the wrong way to go about that. The casual features that were in SWG were the ones aimed more mass market. And sure enough, time has shown that farming, dancing, business management, house decorating, crafting, the whole asynch play stuff, and the like ARE way, WAY more mass market than combat. Just not in MMOs... In social games.

There's a great case to be made that all the ideas were put into the wrong game on several different levels... Not just in the SW universe, but into a core MMO at all, and into a retail disk product, and into too big a product.

The combat and the content needed to be there, no doubt at all, to satisfy the core. Big miss there.

Side note: all the biggest hits in games are and have always been homegrown brands. Look up the historical performance of licensed titles... Saying "it's SW, therefore it must be huge" does not accord with reality in any other genre of game. This has not prevented half my career having been work on adapting IP from other media into games... Virtually none of which ever came to fruition. I think I have written treatments or done meetings for a dozen or so.

[Montague]

Well make it require a voluntary commitment by the player.  Like a golden cock appears and starts spinning in your UI.  CLICK for your POI wankery!  And you can say "hellz yeah, it's time to slay the bantha!" or "bros before hos, chucklefuck!" and decline.  And later, if you feel like it, you can go back and start your golden wang adventure.

But then that defeats the purpose of dynamic content no? Spinning golden cock or golden exclamation point - same diff.

[Margalis]

People are saying that about Kinect Star Wars. "Hey it has Star Wars on the box, it will sell a bajillion copies!" There have been probably 50 Star Wars video games made, the vast majority are moderate sellers.

[Amaron]

The intent was absolutely to make the big mass market MMO. Making a combat only game seemed at the time the wrong way to go about that. The casual features that were in SWG were the ones aimed more mass market. And sure enough, time has shown that farming, dancing, business management, house decorating, crafting, the whole asynch play stuff, and the like ARE way, WAY more mass market than combat. Just not in MMOs... In social games.

That's fair enough I guess.   I never considered that the intent might of been to pull in non gamers.   That seems like a pretty big miss for the license but hindsight.  I'll admit I never considered anyone would try to go quite that mass market without some sort of interm step away from EQ's extreme niche.

[Lantyssa]

Well, it could have worked.  Initial sales were excellent.

Unfortunately the market they were targeting isn't willing to put up with bugs.  They don't complain, they just wander off to other things.  They aren't interested in monthly fees or commitment.  They, at least initially, needed a simple system to ease them into the more complex aspects of the game.

A lot of the game was close.  Unfortunately they suffered from being too early in MMO's lifespan and having way too many buggy, partially, or non-developed systems.  And of course tied to an IP at the most constrained point in its timeline.

How good it turned out for a segment of players is really pretty incredible given the constraints and when it was developed.  I'm glad it was the first non-MUD game that really got its hooks into me, and I still hold out hope that some will, one day, make something with just as many great ideas but add a few more coats of polish and give it sufficient time to get completed.

[Amaron]

Well, it could have worked.  Initial sales were excellent.

It definitely could have worked if they'd marketed it as what it was.  That and finished it.

[VainEldritch]

Well, it could have worked.  Initial sales were excellent.

Smed has admitted this.

Hindsight is such bloody annoying thing.

If SWTOR can deliver on the core combat, the story and the polish, it'll be the most frustrating thing that sandbox elements have been excluded.

My (forlorn) hope is that SWTOR will be such a ballistic success that end game will be expanded to allow for a more "sandboxy" continuation at max level, bracketed by expansions that allow story to continue. 

[Malakili]

The problem is that you're basically talking about two effectively separate games in one.  Its not some kind of trivial thing to just tack on a bunch of sandbox elements onto a game and hope they work out in the end game after people didn't participate at all for 50 levels (or however many, I don't know what max level is).   Aside from the development issues, I'm sure you're going to have a bunch of pissed off customers who get to max level and suddenly have a different game to play than they have been, one of the major things WoW has done of the years is trying to make their end game coherent for people who have just leveled up, and raiding isn't even sandboxy.

I'm fine with TOR just going full on for what it is. I'd rather have it just nail its design for what it is than get all muddled up trying to add in a bunch of different play styles.

[Der Helm]

It definitely could of worked if they'd marketed it as what it was.  That and finished it.

It definitely could of worked if

could of worked

could of

 

[MournelitheCalix]

Raph thanks for the link to the blog you wrote.  It did indeed answer the questions i had, and in hindsight is sort of funny.  I spent days weeks getting rebel rep so that I could do the rebel theme park back then.  I was so sure it was connected to that themepark.  Anyway good times, and a great game.

[Ratman_tf]

LORE LORE LORE

DON'T CARE. STAR WARS. NEED LIGHTSABER.

I was going to make a bounty hunter just to kill all the Jolt Cola Jedis, but then they took the permadeath out. 

[UnSub]

Had they stayed with the original, they'd probably be something closer to what EVE is today.  Niche, but solid enough a popiulation to continue development.

Speculation, of course.

I think that's absolutely true.  SWGemu is proof.  

How many people play SWGemu? And what does it cost to play?

 

"solid enough a population to continue development"

I'm honestly not trying to trip you up; I'm asking because I'm curious. A F2P open source title has lower barriers to keep running than a professionally developed game. A solid population could be 8 people plus a coder who wants to do something with their friends.

[Crumbs]

I'm honestly not trying to trip you up; I'm asking because I'm curious. A F2P open source title has lower barriers to keep running than a professionally developed game. A solid population could be 8 people plus a coder who wants to do something with their friends.

My apologies for the guarded response. 

I am not on the staff but I can tell you what I know from following the project and playing from time to time:  It's currently F2P because it's still in development.  As for numbers, I just checked the forum roster and there are 36388 registered users.  Of course it's safe to say that there are not 36k regular players.  It usually depends on what is being tested.  If the game was finished and worked well, that forum statistic could be a good indicator of a ballpark figure...many of them would probably be long gone but many new people would catch wind of it and join.

There have been times when I logged on and there are players everywhere in Theed and Coronet.  Cantinas full of entertainers, people in the spaceport plazas, group pvp skirmishes going on.  There are regular guilds that seem to form back up after every server wipe.  But the population goes up and down...usually corresponding with the times that the "blue frogs" are up.  Blue frogs are little nodes at spaceport entrances that give out free skills and items for testing. 

I think it was going to remain F2P even if it went live, because of legality issues.  However, with SWG out of the way, perhaps things are different now?  Which leads me to my honest question, for the forum:

With all due respect to everyone's opinions about the game, do you think it's possible for a project like SWGemu to get some sort of boost now that SWG is ending?  If so, what would it take?  Again, I'm not on the emu staff so I don't speak for them.  I'm just an old fan of the game and would like to see a solid revival of it.

[palmer_eldritch]

I hate to be negative about what sounds like a cool emu which I will probably check out, but nothing associated with SWG is open source and if anyone involved in this thinks they are going to be able to start charging for entry then they might want to take legal advice now rather than later. Personally I'd be delighted if they manage to turn their emu into a going concern (in the sense of creating an income from it) but also very surprised.

[Rasix]

I think it was going to remain F2P even if it went live, because of legality issues. 

Umm, I hate to be a downer here, but swgemu's situation is not improved now that SWG is going to be dead.  In fact, I'd consider it much worse now that the contract between LA and SOE will be terminated.

That's unless swgemu has consent directly from LucasArts.  Do they?

[Crumbs]

Rasix:  Not sure about consent, but I don't think they have any plans to implement sub fees.  They give the option to donate.
Palmer:  Here is some info from the FAQ:

Q. Does SWGEmu provide its own client application, so that I don't have to use Sony Online Entertainment's client to connect to the server?

A. Yes, actually, SWGEmu has a Core3Client, which is available on the open-source SVN repository. However, it should be noted that this client does not have a graphical interface, and can only be used via the command line. There are plans to eventually build a client application with a graphical interface, but such will probably not become a reality until after the release of version 1.0 of the SWGEmu server software.

Q. If SWGEmu writes all of it's own code, why does the game feel so much like Sony Online Entertainment's version?

A. This is the objective of the project - Imitating an exact replica of Star Wars Galaxies at the era of Pre-CU. This simply is testament to the fact that the SWGEmu developers are doing a fantastic job writing code which emulates the same game Sony Online Entertainment once provided. Furthermore, if you are using Sony Online Entertainment's client application to connect to an SWGEmu server, then this will only reinforce the nostalgic feel.

Q. Is SWGEmu legal?

A. This question pops up about once per month on our forums, but the never changing answer is simply, yes. Understand, there is a fine line which SWGEmu has yet to cross. Since SWGEmu doesn't distribute any of Sony Online Entertainment's copyrighted material, it does not break any copyright laws. SWGEmu works very hard to stay within it's legal right to produce it's software, and will do it's best to never include copyrighted materials, or infringe on any software patents.

[Nyght]

That is nice and all, but regardless of if they are truly legal or not, it will not prevent them from being sued. And given the likely depth of their pockets, I doubt they would survive even a mild assault from Lucas.

[Amaron]

That is nice and all, but regardless of if they are truly legal or not, it will not prevent them from being sued. And given the likely depth of their pockets, I doubt they would survive even a mild assault from Lucas.

The fact that they're canceling the main game brings up an interesting legal question though.   I am obviously not a lawyer but I'd imagine it gives them a bit more wiggle room in some areas.

[Simond]

No. it really doesn't.

[Amaron]

No. it really doesn't.

I didn't say they could get away with it.   I simply said wiggle room.   Meaning specifically certain damage claims can't be made anymore.

[AcidCat]

I never played SWG. I had purchased my first game-capable PC around the time it was released, but that was for the specific purpose of playing PlanetSide. After that, FFXI was my first "real" mmo (Phantasy Star Online on Dreamcast surely doesn't count).

These days I would appreciate the sandbox it apparently offered, but only well after the fact.

[UnSub]

No. it really doesn't.

I didn't say they could get away with it.   I simply said wiggle room.   Meaning specifically certain damage claims can't be made anymore.

If you are SOE, you are correct. If you are EA and about to launch the now only official Star Wars MMO on the market... 

[Selby]

I simply said wiggle room.   Meaning specifically certain damage claims can't be made anymore.

Just because an artist's album gets deleted or goes out of print doesn't mean you can pirate it with more wiggle room, someone somewhere still owns the rights to the original material even if they are sitting on it.  Same goes with video games.  Abandonware sites have run into issues with this from games that have been out of print for 10+ years.  I know emulators aren't technically pirating in the same vein, but they still use IP developed by someone who legally owns it even if that owner chooses to keep it off the market.

[Ingmar]

Bladerunner grungy universe. 

What in the goddamn hell are you people smoking?

[Fordel]

Vapors from the moisture farm?

[Amaron]

Just because an artist's album gets deleted or goes out of print doesn't mean you can pirate it with more wiggle room,

Whoa whoa who said anything about pirating it?   Didn't they say explicitly you have to own a legal copy of the game?

[Trippy]

Q. Is SWGEmu legal?

A. This question pops up about once per month on our forums, but the never changing answer is simply, yes. Understand, there is a fine line which SWGEmu has yet to cross. Since SWGEmu doesn't distribute any of Sony Online Entertainment's copyrighted material, it does not break any copyright laws. SWGEmu works very hard to stay within it's legal right to produce it's software, and will do it's best to never include copyrighted materials, or infringe on any software patents.

Wrong. See: bnetd.

[Rasix]

Just because an artist's album gets deleted or goes out of print doesn't mean you can pirate it with more wiggle room,

Whoa whoa who said anything about pirating it?   Didn't they say explicitly you have to own a legal copy of the game?

A legal copy of a game that can no longer be played past Dec 15 because the vendor no longer has access to the IP for that game.  Like I said (ok, implied), I think their position got much, much worse.

[Amaron]

Wrong. See: bnetd.

bnetd is only illegal in the US via two specific parts of the DMCA.   That's exactly what I'm talking about in fact.   Now that SoE has essentially disabled SWG they can't pull out the DMCA to claim a DRM mechanism is being circumvented.   The DRM mechanism is gone and doesn't even function anymore.

The most interesting point though from the bnetd case is probably this: "Appellants failed to establish a genuine issue of material fact as to the applicability of the interoperability exception [of the DMCA]. The district court properly granted summary judgement in favor of Blizzard and Vivendi on the operability exception."

In essence it was ruled bnetd failed to prove that it was needed for interoperability.   Proving swgemu is needed for interoperability when the game doesn't even work is easy.

A legal copy of a game that can no longer be played past Dec 15 because the vendor no longer has access to the IP for that game. 

The issue is entirely about DRM and only DRM.   Some IP issues might come up if they actually tried to extend the original client with new content of course.

[UnSub]

It's more likely that LucasArts (or EA) sends a message one day to all SWG emulators that says, "See all those Star Wars characters and names you are using? Stop it." That they haven't so far may have been because SOE didn't think it was worth chasing that particular issue. However, the comments of people who are leaving SWG and heading to an emulator might raise it above the 'we don't care' threshold.

[Amaron]

It's more likely that LucasArts (or EA) sends a message one day to all SWG emulators that says, "See all those Star Wars characters and names you are using? Stop it." That they haven't so far may have been because SOE didn't think it was worth chasing that particular issue. However, the comments of people who are leaving SWG and heading to an emulator might raise it above the 'we don't care' threshold.

They can't really do that since they released to the buyer a license to view that content.

[Lum]

The issue is entirely about DRM and only DRM.  

No, it's really not. Lucasarts licensed SOE the rights to use the Lucasfilm-owned content in SWG. That license is expiring (which Smedley said was one of the main reasons SWG is being shut down). It doesn't mean "oh, we only enforce licenses for big companies" as any number of fan-driven mods hit with cease-and-desist orders can attest.

There's also the not minor fact that the SWG client, client-server protocol, and game content is all SOE's intellectual property, which is why every MMO emulation project is technically illegal and which is why every MMO emulation project over a given size which tries to make $ is shut down quickly (by lawyers in some cases, by the FBI in a few).

[Ingmar]

It's more likely that LucasArts (or EA) sends a message one day to all SWG emulators that says, "See all those Star Wars characters and names you are using? Stop it." That they haven't so far may have been because SOE didn't think it was worth chasing that particular issue. However, the comments of people who are leaving SWG and heading to an emulator might raise it above the 'we don't care' threshold.

They can't really do that since they released to the buyer a license to view that content.

But they didn't license the guys running the server to show it.

[Tale]

I've two things to say:

1) I entered SWG beta with the greatest scepticism and little knowledge of the IP. But I became drawn in by the team's deep, complex intentions for the game. It was tough to get your head around the plans and I think few people, even here on F13, understand what it could have been (if there had been time and money). There was genius at work, so the fate of SWG is sad. I had some great times in it anyway.

2) I hope SWGEmu can survive. I never thought I'd experience pre-CU SWG again and it actually delivers. The world has moved on, so it's only ever going to be a niche community. If you want them in your fold, the real answer is to release something good enough that they will play instead.