Violent games, a good thing after all?

[tgr]

Psychological studies invariably find a positive relationship between violent video game play and aggression. However, these studies cannot account for either aggressive effects of alternative activities video game playing substitutes for or the possible selection of relatively violent people into playing violent video games. That is, they lack external validity. We investigate the relationship between the prevalence of violent video games and violent crimes. Our results are consistent with two opposing effects. First, they support the behavioral effects as in the psychological studies. Second, they suggest a larger voluntary incapacitation effect in which playing either violent or non-violent games decrease crimes. Overall, violent video games lead to decreases in violent crime.

Full study at http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/Delivery.cfm/SSRN_ID1804959_code245196.pdf?abstractid=1804959&mirid=1

[Malakili]

Its pretty hard to commit violent crimes when you have to pwn newbs in Call of Duty all night.

[ghost]

It does make a little sense in that it would allow people to take out their aggression.  Most of these studies that link violent video games to aggressive tendencies are correlative, if I remember correctly, which isn't the best evidence.  The folks that are drawn to violent video games are almost undoubtedly inherently violent.  

[tgr]

It's what I keep seeing people say every time this topic pops up, but some people seems hell-bent on blaming violent games. Hell, if violent games caused violent behaviour, then I would be gunning down people left, right and centre because I played nothing BUT violent games for 15+ years (the more violent the better). In fact, I rarely even squish bugs. I must be some sort of deviant. vOv

[Malakili]

It's what I keep seeing people say every time this topic pops up, but some people seems hell-bent on blaming violent games. Hell, if violent games caused violent behaviour, then I would be gunning down people left, right and centre because I played nothing BUT violent games for 15+ years (the more violent the better). In fact, I rarely even squish bugs. I must be some sort of deviant. vOv

Yea.  I'm relentless competitive in video games a lot of the time, and I've played pretty much every violent video game you can think of, but in real life I'm pretty hippy dippy.

[Morat20]

It does make a little sense in that it would allow people to take out their aggression.  Most of these studies that link violent video games to aggressive tendencies are correlative, if I remember correctly, which isn't the best evidence.  The folks that are drawn to violent video games are almost undoubtedly inherently violent.  

Especially with what they consider "violent". Basketball would be an incredibly violent game, what with the trash talk and shoving that often occurs.

[Nebu]

It always surprised me that people would go after violence in video games.  Seems that violence in the media would be a much easier target.  If you're genuinely concerned that children are being desensitized to violence, the mainstream media would be the first place to start.  Video games already have a shit ton of warning stickers and ratings.  That should more than enough to guide parental control.

[Hawkbit]

Right on the heels of an few articles popping up stating that a study found that limited use of Magic Mushrooms can improve mental well-being.  It's a good week all around!

[Malakili]

It always surprised me that people would go after violence in video games.  Seems that violence in the media would be a much easier target.  If you're genuinely concerned that children are being desensitized to violence, the mainstream media would be the first place to start.  Video games already have a shit ton of warning stickers and ratings.  That should more than enough to guide parental control.

Because the mainstream media is the one reporting it.

[UnSub]

From the article:

Our expert review data comes from the GameSpot website.

Ho ho.  

The problem with this study being waved about as a defence of violent video games is that it provides a number of qualifiers that actually support the reduction of violence in games while promoting more non-violent gaming. It also opens the door that the incapacitation effect serves a short-term reducer for crime but may have serious long-term consequences as violent games cause behaviour change in particular types of gamers.

I'm guessing that most places posting this article didn't read past the abstract though.

[01101010]

I'd hypothesize that if they put in a few measures of self-control variables, any reduction effects games have on crime would fall out... but that's just my opinion. 

[Numtini]

Spurred by Samuel Jackson's masterful reading of Go The Fuck To Sleep and how its become a bestseller, my partner and I were speculating that our long national nightmare of protecting the children might be coming to an end.

Here's hoping this is more evidence of a trend.

[tgr]

If you're genuinely concerned that children are being desensitized to violence, the mainstream media would be the first place to start.

And if we're going to go on the hilarity of the mainstream media, let's not skip over the fact that shooting someone in the face, cutting their limbs off or disemboweling someone is less morally objectionable than some bouncy titties.

[pxib]

Spurred by Samuel Jackson's masterful reading of Go The Fuck To Sleep and how its become a bestseller, my partner and I were speculating that our long national nightmare of protecting the children might be coming to an end.

Here's hoping this is more evidence of a trend.

Strauss and Howe have long predicted as much. Twenty or so more years and we'll have another 1970's "children are demons" birth dearth.

[Ingmar]

It does make a little sense in that it would allow people to take out their aggression.  Most of these studies that link violent video games to aggressive tendencies are correlative, if I remember correctly, which isn't the best evidence.  The folks that are drawn to violent video games are almost undoubtedly inherently violent.  

Especially with what they consider "violent". Basketball would be an incredibly violent game, what with the trash talk and shoving that often occurs.

If I'm any indication, basketball is a violent game, I got hurt playing pickup basketball games far more than any other single activity in my life. 

[Numtini]

Strauss and Howe have long predicted as much. Twenty or so more years and we'll have another 1970's "children are demons" birth dearth.

I was a demon child. I'm disturbed that my daughter is probably going to be one of the artist/adaptives like all the middle class parentswithoutpartners moms I knew growing up who were smoking dope upstairs when we were smoking it downstairs. It's just disturbing.

And yes, I know my H&S. I didn't just drink the Howe and Strauss cool aid. I got a dozen of those 10 gallon coolers of it. Over the last 18 years, no matter how I could not possibly stretch my imagination to see how their predictions were going to come true, every one of them has.

[Sheepherder]

It does make a little sense in that it would allow people to take out their aggression.

Cathartic aggression is proven to be counterproductive.  There's more to it than that, but I have to go AFK soon.

[pxib]

I didn't just drink the Howe and Strauss cool aid. I got a dozen of those 10 gallon coolers of it.

*terrorist fist jab*

Back on topic, every time I read great white hunting stories from the 1800's the writers sound like kids playing Doom:

"Then I came around the corner and shot a polar bear! Its cub started to run, so I followed it for a bit while it howled. Two more polar bears came from behind trees, and I shot them! Then I left them all dead there because they smelled terrible and went to find a moose."

I really do prefer people playing the simulated version to the real thing.

[Sheepherder]

Cathartic aggression is proven to be counterproductive.  There's more to it than that, but I have to go AFK soon.

...

Simply put, venting your anger can become positive reinforcement for getting angry.  If your response to anger is to do something aggressive, then there also exists a feedback loop.  With video games it's hard to establish causality, because first you have to establish that playing a violent videogame is in and of itself a violent activity, and then establishing whether the effect is mindless aggression as opposed to premeditated violence, since even the most brainless of games requires more input than mindless frothing RAEG.

[tgr]

Aggressive/violent games can probably make some people more aggressive, but I'm going to just suggest that they have a perchant for violence to start with, and probably would've grown violent regardless of video games.

As I said, I've literally played nothing but violent games since I was a young kid, and I played doom 1 and 2 religiously for 2-3 years, etc etc etc, and the only time I've ever even tried to punch someone in the face was once, at school, after I got teased to breaking point. I missed, but that's beside the point, that was literally the ONLY time I've ever tried to punch anyone. To put it into perspective, I had at that point been teased continually for 7-8 years by literally the whole school (the first 6 years was at a school with around 50 pupils total, next 3 were at a school with 300-400).

I doubt I'm some pacifist wonderchild, and honestly, it pisses me right the fuck off that games are always, always the first culprit they point at, nevermind the fact that the people who do go all columbine and shoot everyone are people who doesn't fit in, are continually teased, and just ... snap. I think there are a fucktonne of people who are more like me, who just don't actually snap to the point where they bring guns to whereever it is they're being mistreated for whatever reason. I wouldn't be too surprised (although if I think back, I can't really say I ever even thought along those lanes, but Norway is a vastly different place/environment than, say, America) if I had been brought up in an environment where guns were much more prevalent, that I would've actually been tempted to pull out a gun and just start shooting a few of the people who were the main antagonizers.

Long story short: I think the experiences you have with people, and the environment as a whole that you grow up with, do more to shape the way you look (and interact) with the world, than just playing games, violent or not.

[Lantyssa]

I grew up with guns, was teased pretty relentlessly, and I still never thought about shooting anyone.

[tgr]

Yeah, parts of that could probably have been worded better, I didn't actually mean to say that "environment with guns" => "automatic temptation to shoot someone", even if that's what I ended up saying there. What I could've said was more that if I had been brought up in an environment where guns (and gun use) were more prevalent, the result of someone actually snapping could much easier end in shootings, because they'd be easier to get hold of. This is a tangent, however, because the main thing I wanted to try to emphasise was that I strongly doubted that games, unlike what the media keeps portraying it as, would be the main cause of most violence, more that it'd probably be the result of f.ex relentless teasing finally just reaching a certain point of no return, and that should've been more of a focus than it is today.

[ghost]

I grew up with guns, was teased pretty relentlessly, and I still never thought about shooting anyone.

This is a wonderful point. 

In my profession I see a lot of kids and there are clearly some that are more than a little unstable mentally, and I think it doesn't have a lot to do with their environment.  Some of them are simply inherently (genetically?) unstable and have issues with depression, psychosis and bipolar. 

[Morat20]

Yeah, the thing with guns is that in a gun-soaked culture they are just handy. Like if I'm insanely pissed off and have lost self-control and want to attack, well -- I always have my hands and feet.

But if I carry knives regularly, the odds of me pulling one out of habit (a common tool, or one I've mentally associated with anger or violence) is higher.

Same with guns. My only beef with guns and gun-owners are the ones that carry it and constantly fantasize about using it. I always get the feeling those guys aren't just looking, they're actively praying for an excuse -- any excuse -- to shoot someone.

Whether that's worth the trade-off is another question, but having a pistol in your glove-box increases the potential lethality of road-rage. Not because "guns are bad, mmkay" but because you have one right there and guns are inherently more lethal than bare hands. (Caveat: Yes, hands and feet can be lethal, as soldiers learn. In general, however, your average dolt is going to be more dangerous with a gun -- if he hits what he's aiming at -- than with his hands, if he hits what he's aiming at).

[ghost]

I carry a gun every single day and am absolutely fucking terrified of having to use it.   

[KallDrexx]

I'm just going to point out that even though I don't believe there is a direct correlation between violent video games and RL violence, everyone in here trying to claim that they play video games and aren't violent are being just as anecdotal as those trying to prove the opposite is true.

[Morat20]

I'm just going to point out that even though I don't believe there is a direct correlation between violent video games and RL violence, everyone in here trying to claim that they play video games and aren't violent are being just as anecdotal as those trying to prove the opposite is true.

Yes, but not to put too fine a point on it: We fucking play violent video games and they don't. It's like arguing the artistic merits of rap music, with the argument between people who like rap and people who refuse to ever listen to it and want it banned.

At least one side has, you know, actual first hand anecdotal evidence. :)

[tgr]

I have to agree with Morat20. It's not like we're (or at least I'm not) trying to say that it doesn't exacerbate it if it's already a problem in an individual, but what I react the most over is how they're continually managing to make it sound dangerously close to "if you play violent video games, you will kill someone".

[ghost]

I'm just going to point out that even though I don't believe there is a direct correlation between violent video games and RL violence, everyone in here trying to claim that they play video games and aren't violent are being just as anecdotal as those trying to prove the opposite is true.

There is a big difference between correlative evidence (of which there is some for violent video games and aggressive behavior) and anecdotal evidence.  Correlative evidence, while not great, is much better than anecdotal evidence for sure.  There clearly is a link between violent games and behavior, but what is that link?

[tgr]

There clearly is a link between violent games and behavior, but what is that link?

Personally, I'm inclined to think that it's more a violent person => really like violent games, than violent games => cause violent personality.

It's like driving games don't make you drive super quickly on the road, the fact that you're an adrenaline junkie makes you drive quickly on the road, and also makes you like driving games.

[Morat20]

There is a big difference between correlative evidence (of which there is some for violent video games and aggressive behavior) and anecdotal evidence.  Correlative evidence, while not great, is much better than anecdotal evidence for sure.  There clearly is a link between violent games and behavior, but what is that link?

Correlative evidence doesn't mean there's a link -- that's the point. Skirt length and stock market behavior correlate -- but one doesn't cause the other. They just happen in tandem, linked to something else.

However, here's a fun fact: Violent crime is at a massive low. It's been dropping steadily since the 90s -- going into it's third decade now. I wonder how that'd graph with the number of gamers and everyone's favorite genre to scream about violence: First person shooters?

When did Wolfenstein and Doom come out?

[UnSub]

Anatomy of Irony In An Internet Argument

Part 1:

Correlative evidence doesn't mean there's a link -- that's the point. Skirt length and stock market behavior correlate -- but one doesn't cause the other. They just happen in tandem, linked to something else.

Part 2:

However, here's a fun fact: Violent crime is at a massive low. It's been dropping steadily since the 90s -- going into it's third decade now. I wonder how that'd graph with the number of gamers and everyone's favorite genre to scream about violence: First person shooters?

Please don't handwave correlative evidence away in one paragraph only to use it in your second paragraph to support your point of view.

There are a large number of factors that may be impacting on crime rates and it's likely the 'incapacitation effect' of video games is a long way down the list:

There's a catch, though. No one can convincingly explain exactly how the crime problem was solved. Police chiefs around the country credit improved police work. Demographers cite changing demographics of an aging population. Some theorists point to the evolution of the drug trade at both the wholesale and retail levels, while for veterans of the Clinton Administration, the preferred explanation is their initiative to hire more cops. Renegade economist Steven Levitt has speculated that legalized abortion caused the drop in crime. (Fewer unwanted babies in the 1970s and '80s grew up to be thugs in the 1990s and beyond.)

The truth probably lies in a mix of these factors, plus one more: the steep rise in the number of Americans in prison.

Do video games encourage violent attitudes? There's some evidence they do (at least in lab situations and in the short-term, as well in those predisposed to violence). Would the drop in crime rates we see today be greater if video games weren't so violent? It's probably impossible to know.

[Morat20]

*slams head into wall*.

I must not have been perfectly clear. If we're not going to take anecdotal evidence (even though those anecdotes come from people who play violent games), and instead we're only going to take useless correlative evidence then yes, UnSub, I will give correlative evidence even though I consider it pretty fucking useless in this case.

Because that's what the argument is over.

So let me try that again, with extra fucking clarity: "I think correlative evidence is useless as shit for trying to link violent behavior to games. However, for those who don't think this way and are citing correlative evidence that violent games make people more violent here is a piece of correlative evidence to the fucking contrary."

[ghost]

Correlative evidence doesn't mean there's a link -- that's the point. Skirt length and stock market behavior correlate -- but one doesn't cause the other. They just happen in tandem, linked to something else.

You're making the classic mistake of assuming that simply because evidence is correlative that there is no link.  Most times when things are highly correlated there is a link.  That's why they bother doing the studies, you know?  Of course it will require further controlled studies to provide firmer evidence, correlative studies aren't useless, as you seem to be implying.  

Edit:  If there is high correlation, there is almost always a link, even if it is just that the two things are highly correlated.  If there is a high correlation, and two things go together, you can clearly be much more likely to find one of the points of interest, e.g. violence in video games, to occur with the other, e.g. aggressive behavior.  This is useful on a lot of levels. Your suggestion that such data does not sound like an informed opinion.  

So let me try that again, with extra fucking clarity: "I think correlative evidence is useless as shit for trying to link violent behavior to games. However, for those who don't think this way and are citing correlative evidence that violent games make people more violent here is a piece of correlative evidence to the fucking contrary."

I love your argument.  Throw in lots of curse words and exasperated italics and it will make your point oh-so-much clearer.  

[tgr]

So, given that line of thought, ban racing games like test drive etc, because some people who've crashed while speeding has been known to play driving games.