Japan [Tag: Fucked]

[KallDrexx]

I agree with Nyght in this case.  These style reactors have outlived their usefulness, their hazards are appreciable and they are all in the approaching their designed end of life phase anyway.

Begin phasing them out, don't renew their licenses and get some better stuff going.

Like Chimpy said, yes the outdated designs should be phased out but that hasn't been feasible.  To phase them out you need to something to replace it, and the retarded American public has been "oh no Nuclear = bad" for a while.  Therefore, the only way to replace them is with Coal (which has a lot more health and waste risks outside of critical accidents like what Japan has now).  Wind power (which a lot of nutjobs are going on about now) aren't feasible.  

And now with this situation in Japan, even the international community is putting a pause to nuclear rollouts, which means there's zero chance of any new reactors in the US being considered in probably the next 20 years.  Thus, decommissioning the current reactors means less power in the US, when our electrical needs are growing.

And again, it took an extremely extra-ordinary (and record book setting) chain of events to trigger the current situation in Japan.  It wasn't just the 4th strongest earthquake world-wide and it wasn't just the tsunamai that occurred.  If this situation was like Chernobyl (horrible mismanagement of reactor operations), or if this was a a proven design flaw with nuclear reactors I would agree with you.  

[Trouble]

It's going to be awesome to watch what happens, considering the lack of other options besides nuclear.

[ghost]

It's going to be awesome to watch what happens, considering the lack of other options besides nuclear.

This seems like a reasonable option.

[bhodi]

Really? Why don't you think about that some more.

[ghost]

Really? Why don't you think about that some more.

That was a joke.  Hence the ancient waterwheel. 

[Soln]

in Seattle we are expecting the first touch of radiation tonight/tomorrow-morning.   NYT interactive map from today: "Forecast for Plume's Path Is a Function of Wind and Weather"


Edit: local depts of health still saying stay calm

How much radioactivity do you expect to come to Washington from Japan’s reactors?

We don’t expect significant levels of radioactivity in our state, and there’s no health risk. Japan is thousands of miles from our state, and if radioactivity from the reactors there is released to the upper atmosphere it would be thinned-out by the winds before it could reach us. We could see a very small increase in radiation levels — well below levels that would be a health concern. We’re working with federal, state, and local agencies in a coordinated effort to monitor radiation levels in the air and rainwater.

[bhodi]

That was a joke.  Hence the ancient waterwheel. 

Hard to tell!

Here, the Japanese explain what's going on, in a way only they can.

[ghost]

Sorry.  To me

 

is not the same as


although I guess they do serve the same ultimate purpose. 

[MournelitheCalix]

Like Chimpy said, yes the outdated designs should be phased out but that hasn't been feasible.  To phase them out you need to something to replace it, and the retarded American public has been "oh no Nuclear = bad" for a while.  

Wow, exactly how many times does one have to be bit by a technology before you can acknowledge that perhaps the fears that the public has had was not unfounded but was instead founded in something other than low IQ's and an inability to understand the technology?  

To be clear, I also believe that Nuclear power is right now the only feasible option that we have to wean us off of fossil fuels.  However to discount the concerns of a public by labeling them "retarded" also in my opinion grieviously misses the mark.  The "public" are made up of people who invest their lives in an area, who take out a mortgage on a home, who often choose the best area they can to raise a family, and have as such a vested interest in keeping that area a safe place to live.  The fact is when you have nuclear power plants, you always have a chance of a catastrophy.  The public has little faith in corporate controlled power plants and they have little "faith" for good reason.  From catastrophies like the Tom Sauk reservoir, to incidents in our history from Three Mile Island to gulf oil spills to the numerous violations cited by the department of energy at aging nuclear power plants today it is little wonder that the public has faith in utility companies who proclaim to have 100 year storms every other year.  Now you want them to trust that the Nuclear Power plant by their homes will not pose a threat to them, their property, or their community?  Who is being retarded now???  What this incident has shown us is that nuclear power is not safe.  It may be safer than the days of Chernobyl and Three Mile Island but safe it is not.  

[Goumindong]

That's semantics, nothing else. Yes a nuclear reactor cannot turn into a nuke. The fuel rods are essentially the wrong kind of "payload" because they are made up of the wrong kind of nuclear material, they are packed differently etc.

No, they're not semantics. There cannot be a 500kt steam explosion. The resulting radiation profiles and damages are entirely different. Nothing is going to be vaporized, there is not going to be a mile of flattened earth from a steam explosion.

This won't be a Chernobyl because the conditions required have already been passed. Spent fuel fires are bad, but its not the same as a full bore reaction going out of control without containment.

Also, tactical nukes are called "tactical" because of the purpose they serve, not because of their radiation profile.

edit: fixed the quote tags

[Sand]

On an "average day in NYC" do you have the looming threat of radiated particles and smoke from burning nuclear rods nearby, where the wind could shift and blow that stuff across the city? If not then what's your point?
Because I think we are far past the point of comparing "average days".

No, we're not past average days.

Again, all anyone here is dealing with is speculation, including you.

And to give you a little insight on the weird shit that happens here, a guy got kicked out of Columbia University in the mid-80s for stealing fucking Uranium-238 that had been in the tunnels under the university since the goddamn Manhattan Project. And as Jeff Kelly said, depending on where you live, the ambient radiation is a shitton higher than what's leaking out of the the plant at the moment. So yeah, That's my fucking point.

So on "average days" you have a number of reactors with spent nuclear fuel on fire and the possibility that the prevailing winds will shift blowing the smoke and particulates on to your city?
No one is saying the CURRENT radiation levels in Tokyo are bad, they are saying there is the POTENTIAL for them to get bad and they dont want to be there should that happen. So why not leave until the situation is resolved?

So whatever the average background radiation in random city "X" is anywhere makes no fucking difference in this situation.

[Soln]

There's an EPA site one can join that has logs on radiation data being actively collected.  I'll channel AP and maybe start posting West Coast readings every once in a while.  

Fixed Monitor Location: WA: SEATTLE
Measurement End Date/Time: 03/17/2011 02:58:40 PM
Measurement Start Date/Time: 03/17/2011 03:58:48 PM
Beta Gross Count Rate (CPM): 10
Gamma Energy Range 2 Gross(CPM): 682
Gamma Energy Range 3 Gross(CPM): 423
Gamma Energy Range 4 Gross(CPM): 140
Gamma Energy Range 5 Gross(CPM): 73
Gamma Energy Range 6 Gross(CPM): 46
Gamma Energy Range 7 Gross(CPM): 55
Gamma Energy Range 8 Gross(CPM): 40
Gamma Energy Range 9 Gross(CPM): 17
Gamma Energy Range 10 Gross(CPM): 22

Fixed Monitor Location: OR: PORTLAND
Measurement Start Date/Time: 03/17/2011 02:48:42 PM
Measurement End Date/Time: 03/17/2011 03:48:50 PM
Beta Gross Count Rate (CPM): 12
Gamma Energy Range 2 Gross(CPM): 2276
Gamma Energy Range 3 Gross(CPM): 1064
Gamma Energy Range 4 Gross(CPM): 324
Gamma Energy Range 5 Gross(CPM): 171
Gamma Energy Range 6 Gross(CPM): 115
Gamma Energy Range 7 Gross(CPM): 134
Gamma Energy Range 8 Gross(CPM): 89
Gamma Energy Range 9 Gross(CPM): 36
Gamma Energy Range 10 Gross(CPM): 54

Fixed Monitor Location: CA: SAN FRANCISCO
Measurement Start Date/Time: 03/17/2011 02:36:39 PM
Measurement End Date/Time: 03/17/2011 03:36:46 PM
Beta Gross Count Rate (CPM): 18
Gamma Energy Range 2 Gross(CPM): 1966
Gamma Energy Range 3 Gross(CPM): 1257
Gamma Energy Range 4 Gross(CPM): 377
Gamma Energy Range 5 Gross(CPM): 197
Gamma Energy Range 6 Gross(CPM): 132
Gamma Energy Range 7 Gross(CPM): 157
Gamma Energy Range 8 Gross(CPM): 96
Gamma Energy Range 9 Gross(CPM): 30
Gamma Energy Range 10 Gross(CPM): 37

[KallDrexx]

Wow, exactly how many times does one have to be bit by a technology before you can acknowledge that perhaps the fears that the public has had was not unfounded but was instead founded in something other than low IQ's and an inability to understand the technology?

The only way to have zero risks with technology is not to use it.  There are many things that can cause a catastrophe, some born from technology and some are born straight from nature itself.  Should we not have residences live on coastlines because a Tsunamai could potentially wipe out thousands of people without any warning as well?   Also, get rid of all the damns, because if an extraordinary effect occurs it could break and cause floods that could kill a lot of people.

In the mean time, people are going to cry out about the catastrophe that could potentially happen and thus will prevent any any chance of implementing better safety for our current nuclear plants, while coal plants continue to expunge pollution into the air and damage people's lungs during regular activity, yet complain about the ever increasing cost of electricity to power materialistic shit that they don't need.

Yes, in a perfect world we could have a power source that is 100% safe in all instances, but as of right now there is none.  In a rational world we need to see what is going on in Japan and figure out how to better prepare the plants for this extremely rare case, but with a  "OMG NUCLEAR BAD AND UNSAFE" population that won't happen.

[Hawkbit]

in Seattle we are expecting the first touch of radiation tonight/tomorrow-morning.   NYT interactive map from today: "Forecast for Plume's Path Is a Function of Wind and Weather"


Edit: local depts of health still saying stay calm

How much radioactivity do you expect to come to Washington from Japan’s reactors?

We don’t expect significant levels of radioactivity in our state, and there’s no health risk. Japan is thousands of miles from our state, and if radioactivity from the reactors there is released to the upper atmosphere it would be thinned-out by the winds before it could reach us. We could see a very small increase in radiation levels — well below levels that would be a health concern. We’re working with federal, state, and local agencies in a coordinated effort to monitor radiation levels in the air and rainwater.

Wouldn't you know it... our plane lands in Seattle 10:30am tomorrow and we'll be there for a week.  Lulz.

[NiX]

The only way to have zero risks with technology is not to use it.  There are many things that can cause a catastrophe, some born from technology and some are born straight from nature itself.  Should we not have residences live on coastlines because a Tsunamai could potentially wipe out thousands of people without any warning as well?   Also, get rid of all the damns, because if an extraordinary effect occurs it could break and cause floods that could kill a lot of people.

In the mean time, people are going to cry out about the catastrophe that could potentially happen and thus will prevent any any chance of implementing better safety for our current nuclear plants, while coal plants continue to expunge pollution into the air and damage people's lungs during regular activity, yet complain about the ever increasing cost of electricity to power materialistic shit that they don't need.

Yes, in a perfect world we could have a power source that is 100% safe in all instances, but as of right now there is none.  In a rational world we need to see what is going on in Japan and figure out how to better prepare the plants for this extremely rare case, but with a  "OMG NUCLEAR BAD AND UNSAFE" population that won't happen.

I would have replied to his post with a lot more swear words.

Any updates today on the reactors condition? Other than the possibility of reactions having started again.

[Tebonas]

Oh how I want to tear into those ridiculous arguments of you nuclear fanboys. Sadly all of this is would be off-topic in a thread about the catastrophe in Japan.

Rationality has nothing to do with a Pro-Nuclear stance. Its just provincialism and shortsightedness.

[KallDrexx]

Oh how I want to tear into those ridiculous arguments of you nuclear fanboys. Sadly all of this is would be off-topic in a thread about the catastrophe in Japan.

Rationality has nothing to do with a Pro-Nuclear stance. Its just provincialism and shortsightedness.

Anti-Nuclear people have the same degree of  "ridiculous arguments", fanaticism, and short-sightedness.  Rationality has nothing to do with anti-nuclear stances as well, because anti-nuclear arguments to not take in the facts of the real world, where people want more and more electricity and power needs for as cheap as possible. 

[Mrbloodworth]

Quite a good link, not sure if its been posted yet between the armchair arguments :)

How does a nuclear meltdown work?

[Tebonas]

One side argues for the safety of future generation and their right not to get irradiated (if not by failing reactors than by the nuclear waste working reactors produce)

The other side argues for the ability to turn up the air conditioning so they don't have to sweat while they live in a desert area.

Still, wrong thread for that.

[Teleku]

Yeah, hearing an anti-nuclear person call pro-nuclear arguments "provincialism and shortsightedness" is the definition of irony.

Make a new (politics) thread about it though.  With the large amount of nuclear experts we have on this board, I'm sure the discussion will both civil and enlightening!

[bhodi]

It may be safer than the days of Chernobyl and Three Mile Island but safe it is not.  

Walking around outside is unsafe. Here's a breakdown based on deaths per amount of power generated, if you were curious.

Energy Source                      Death Rate (deaths per TWh)

Coal – world average              161 (26% of world energy, 50% of electricity)
Coal – China                      278
Coal – USA                         15
Oil                                36  (36% of world energy)
Natural Gas                         4  (21% of world energy)
Biofuel/Biomass                    12
Peat                               12
Solar (rooftop)                     0.44 (less than 0.1% of world energy)
Wind                                0.15 (less than 1% of world energy)
Hydro                               0.10 (europe death rate, 2.2% of world energy)
Hydro - world including Banqiao)    1.4 (about 2500 TWh/yr and 171,000 Banqiao dead)
Nuclear                             0.04 (5.9% of world energy)

Source: Bureau of Labor Statistics; survey of occupations with minimum 30 fatalities and 45,000 workers in 2002

In point of fact, it is quite safe, compared to the alternatives.

[Jeff Kelly]

There cannot be a 500kt steam explosion.

There fucking WAS one!

The resulting radiation profiles and damages are entirely different. Nothing is going to be vaporized, there is not going to be a mile of flattened earth from a steam explosion.

You obviously have no clue. If you drop a metric fuckton of still burning graphite mixed with molten metal at 2500 °C into water there will be an explosion worthy of a nuke.

2200 °C is enough energy to separate cold water instantly into hydrogen and oxygen. The resulting gas will increase in volume by 1400%. It's even technically called an explosion at that point because of the speed of the resulting blast wave.

To put this into perspective, all of the water that had pooled under the reactor would have resulted in a FIVE MEGATON blast if the red hot molten core of chernobyl had reached it. That blast would have levelled Kiew which is 100 km away.

[Ghambit]

By the time the nuclear debate gets resolved:
a)  We'll be half cyborg and it wont matter
b)  The auto-repairing nanites in my bloodstream could handle it

Nukes and cyberclaws for everyone!  Win win!

[Mrbloodworth]

[01101010]

As a break from the nuclear slap fighting going on...

Listening to NPR and caught a snippet about the other side of this Japan cornholing: Those that didn't die in the catastrophe are now faced with freezing temps and little food or water due to conditions being so treacherous to get, well, anywhere around there. I'd try to find the NPR link but right now I am on break and have to get back to my 12h shift. So the title of the thread still stands.

[NiX]

Those cats aren't fat enough and don't have neckbeards.

These arguments are getting tiring and, someone pointed out, being done in a thread about a terrible natural disaster thats displaced and killed a lot of people.

[MournelitheCalix]

I would have replied to his post with a lot more swear words.

I would be happy to hear from you with PM's and I don't mind the swearing.

The only way to have zero risks with technology is not to use it.

Agreed completely, and again I don't disagree that there are risks to anything.   There clearly are risks, benfits and shortfalls to many ways in which we meet the need for energy that the public demands.  What I disagree with completely however is that the public was being "retarded" about their desires to stop new nuclear reactors from being built.  That statement is completely false.  Their are real concerns that are founded in fact that compell the public to resist the construction of new reactors.  If you don't believe me just ask the Japonese who have supposedly sealed themselves in their houses as to if the fears that stop reactors from being built are justified.  If that is too extreme then I invite you to talk to the people of Russia whose children are being born horribly deformed or with holes in their hearts.  If that is too extreme then please ask the carrier group, who hurried right out of the irradiated "cloud" they encountered in order to move to a "safe" distance.  If again this is too extreme a comparison for you then consider this.  When a hydroelectric station like Tom Sauk fails, cities are wiped out, but they can be rebuilt.  When nuclear power goes wrong, the land around it can be unsafe to live in for over 500 years.  To me that is several orders of magnitude of a difference and neither sensational nor an unjustifiable fear.  That is simply the historical fact about the risks involved with the use of this technology.  I hope that is not what happens to the great people of Japan, as I am told so much of their history can be found in that province and it would be a shame of unparallelled proportions if it was lost.

[Murgos]

I understand the gate readings are important in figuring out what may be happening at the reactors (hence my later statement), but they dont give the full story of conditions.  Right now you have a plant and govt. harping on conditions at the gate, using it to quell fears, bolster repairs, etc.  All the while the wind isnt blowing towards the gate to begin with!    T

I'm not sure you get it.  Ash or steam would blow over the monitoring stations and be detected, as you notice they are spread in a semi-circular pattern around the plant.

Additionally, the source of emission itself, the reactors and fuel pools, can be monitored directly from the monitoring stations.  So we know approximately how much radiation is being released in total.

There isn't something going unaccounted for that's sneaking past the perimeter.

[Mrbloodworth]

Hay guys, I hear there was a natural disaster that displaced hundreds of thousands of people in japan.

[Goumindong]

There fucking WAS one!

Cite. Because I can't find any information on this supposed steam explosion which was 25 times larger than Hiroshima.


Re: It would have leveled Kiev

If they had dropped Tzar Bomba on Chernobyl it would not have leveled Kiev. The total destruction area of the largest nuclear bomb ever conceived and dropped was 35km(granted it was not dropped to maximize damage, but the blast was also at least 10 times larger than your proposed 5 megaton steam explosion and said explosion would not have occurred at an optimal height either). They were worried about radiation (and specifically material getting into the water table), not a nuclear or nuclear sized explosion.

[Ghambit]

I understand the gate readings are important in figuring out what may be happening at the reactors (hence my later statement), but they dont give the full story of conditions.  Right now you have a plant and govt. harping on conditions at the gate, using it to quell fears, bolster repairs, etc.  All the while the wind isnt blowing towards the gate to begin with!    T

I'm not sure you get it.  Ash or steam would blow over the monitoring stations and be detected, as you notice they are spread in a semi-circular pattern around the plant.

Additionally, the source of emission itself, the reactors and fuel pools, can be monitored directly from the monitoring stations.  So we know approximately how much radiation is being released in total.

There isn't something going unaccounted for that's sneaking past the perimeter.

So you're saying the invisible cloud of caesium death wafting above,out to sea, and downwind of the reactor is totally accounted for?   
Note:  we're talking a semicircle of stations here, all inland and upwind.  We shall see what they say in 12 hrs. when those plumes drift overhead and then revisit this argument kk?

[Jeff Kelly]

OK first let me apologize for my tone Goumindong that was uncalled for. I'll get back to you for the rest of your questions.

[bhodi]

First, Let's stay civil here. I see we're beginning to drift (har).


Neutron radiation is not affected by wind Ghambit; If the "cloud" as you put it was within detection range, it would be picked up, no matter what direction the wind is blowing. As the detection ranges overlap (Edit: much of - actual range is somewhere around 200m) the actual site, as soon as this "cloud" appeared above the site it would immediately register on all the detectors.

There is no "cloud" of radioactive particles beyond the small amount that was released several days ago via radioactive steam.

There are also amateur radiation detectors springing up all over japan and many are putting feeds online. All of them show slightly elevated (I emphasize the word slightly) but completely safe levels. There isn't some government conspiracy here that's whitewashing some horrible disaster. It is, and will remain, a localized industrial accident.

[Trouble]

The only tragedy or potential cause of one is irrational fear caused demonstrably inferior and potentially unsafe technology to stay in use years beyond the original planned lifespan. There hasn't been an adequate energy replacement, so we'll just keep extending the life of obsolete designs instead of replacing them with safer ones.

[jakonovski]

The only tragedy or potential cause of one is irrational fear caused demonstrably inferior and potentially unsafe technology to stay in use years beyond the original planned lifespan. There hasn't been an adequate energy replacement, so we'll just keep extending the life of obsolete designs instead of replacing them with safer ones.

Or Tepco might be Japan's Enron with a history of negligence. That or people on the internet freaking out, I dunno.

edit: apologies for the snark, but I'm really really not comfortable with the idea rolling any responsibility of nuclear safety on the general public.