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Author Topic: What went right.  (Read 37677 times)
squirrel
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Reply #105 on: March 21, 2011, 04:23:01 PM

If you're not on a PvP server, you're doing it wrong.  Having been playing in Scarwood Whatever-the-fuck (level 30-36 zone) for a while now, I've had the most fun in an MMORPG since DAOC, and it all boils down to rifts and PvP keeping things unpredictable and exciting.  The emergent factor where both teams are trying to complete objectives and take down the big bad boss at the end of an invasion is simply an unmatched experience in MMORPGs.  And it's a good thing too, because the questing otherwise is rather terrible, the dungeons are nothing special, and warfronts while fun are a straight WoW rip.

On Sunrest, there's a defiant guild that kills guardians during these rift boss events, which makes this guild hated by everyone (including some defiants).  I guess they enjoy going around with an outlaw type label that says "kill me on sight."  Annoying as they are, they are part of what makes Rift incredibly fun for me.  There are anti-pk type guilds as well.

I found that Scarlet Gorge and Scarlet Reach had a great deal of pvp; Moonshade/Droughtlands/Iron Pine Peaks has had more cooperation on rift bosses - that could be due to me taking a few days off the game, so I'm leveling with a different crowd now, too.  I'm not sure.

But yeah, pvp server is making me very happy, despite me hating to be ganked and refusing to gank (except Acolytes who I will kill no matter the level whenever I see them).

Edited to add: I play a ranger/bard mostly, which is not a good pvp spec, and I end up getting owned by people levels lower than me sometimes.  I am also not great at pvp.  I've been ganked a few times, camped only once.  It's not as prevalent as I feared it would be.  Most of the pvp has been really fun.  Closest thing to DAOC rvr I've seen in a game since.

I'm intrigued. I'm on a PvE server, the f13 server, so don't have the same frame of reference. I'm curious how you see this as DAOC rvr type gaming? I don't see the capability to be honest given the lack of persistent goals, rewards etc. But I'd be interested in how you see that?

EDIT: My question comes as someone who had 2 RR10 characters so I am a fan of that kind of game.

Speaking of marketing, we're out of milk.
Vinadil
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Reply #106 on: March 21, 2011, 10:30:24 PM

I don't think there is currently a DAoC type of mechanic in the game.  But, with the way their wardstones work I could easily see there being something like that in the future.  As it stands you can go kill the other sides quest hubs (take out the wardstone, all NPCs disappear), but it is very temporary and mainly just annoys them.  From what I have seen you don't actually get your own quest NPCs in their place (which would be interesting).

Of course in every zone but the level 50 zones that type of thing would be grieftastic as one level 50 could basically stop tons of level 20s from being able to quest.

But, put those wardstones inside a DAOC style fortress, and you have yourself a persistent world asset that can change hands depending on who beat it down, etc.  I am hoping the game moves in this direction personally, but I have yet to see how the Raid Rifts are going to work... perhaps that will be fun PvP without the hassle of having to defend your base at 3am.
Threash
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Reply #107 on: March 22, 2011, 01:08:32 PM

Something I've noticed running experts the last few days that shows how versatile the soul system can be, after wiping several times on the same boss most people will default to "let me try something different" rather than "fuck this, we can't do this, you guys suck" like in WoW heroics. 

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Nebu
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Reply #108 on: March 22, 2011, 01:34:00 PM

Something I've noticed running experts the last few days that shows how versatile the soul system can be, after wiping several times on the same boss most people will default to "let me try something different" rather than "fuck this, we can't do this, you guys suck" like in WoW heroics. 

Was this a regular group or a pug?  How likely a party is to say "fuck this" depends almost entirely on their faith in the ability of others in the group.   

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Nerf
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Reply #109 on: March 22, 2011, 01:38:39 PM

Something I've noticed running experts the last few days that shows how versatile the soul system can be, after wiping several times on the same boss most people will default to "let me try something different" rather than "fuck this, we can't do this, you guys suck" like in WoW heroics. 

Was this a regular group or a pug?  How likely a party is to say "fuck this" depends almost entirely on their faith in the ability of others in the group.   

I can't imagine doing a PUG heroic - I did FC 8 or 9 times in 3 days for sweet, sweet drops to blow up for runecrafter mats, mostly as a chloro healer.

Some tanks just SUCK.  Not the spec, the player.  I've had groups where the tank never drops below 80% with me just throwing down RS and having veil/syth up, and groups with the same type of tank where I'm constantly having to drop my 2 instaheals to keep them above 40%.

On the plus side, I've found that chloro as a main healer is incredibly viable and actually fun to play - instead of staring at the HP bars the entire time you're basically just DPSing while dropping a shitload of group heals on everyone.
Threash
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Reply #110 on: March 22, 2011, 02:03:16 PM

Something I've noticed running experts the last few days that shows how versatile the soul system can be, after wiping several times on the same boss most people will default to "let me try something different" rather than "fuck this, we can't do this, you guys suck" like in WoW heroics. 

Was this a regular group or a pug?  How likely a party is to say "fuck this" depends almost entirely on their faith in the ability of others in the group.   

Talking about pugs with both, random dungeon for wow and /50 chat pugs from rift.

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Cadaverine
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Reply #111 on: March 22, 2011, 08:02:57 PM

I would attribute at least some of that to the fact that there's no LFD available.  When you can just re-queue, and be back in a group within a few minutes, dps notwithstanding, then just saying fuck it becomes viable.  If you have to hang around in town, or whatever, and actually put together a group, then there's more incentive to stick with it once you have a group.

Being able to swap out souls doesn't hurt either, though.

Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats.
Xanthippe
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Reply #112 on: March 23, 2011, 10:18:36 PM

I'm intrigued. I'm on a PvE server, the f13 server, so don't have the same frame of reference. I'm curious how you see this as DAOC rvr type gaming? I don't see the capability to be honest given the lack of persistent goals, rewards etc. But I'd be interested in how you see that?

EDIT: My question comes as someone who had 2 RR10 characters so I am a fan of that kind of game.

There are no persistent rvr type goals.  It just happens.  There are pk guilds, and anti-pk guilds.  It's an rp-pvp server (Sunrest), so there are also events that guilds run.  (I don't know how other servers are.)

One week, a large defiant guild came to "take" Sanctum, and the guardians battled them from the Sanctum bridge all the way back to Stonefield, then attempted to get to Meridian (I logged after Stonefield).

I cannot imagine the same type of fun on a pve server.

Most people quest and ignore the other side.  I've seen very little ganking (except by the pk guilds - the ones who swear that if it's red it's a target).  I've seen more cooperation than ganking.  It's quite pleasant, actually.  The community is also about 100x better than WoW's.
Typhon
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Reply #113 on: March 28, 2011, 10:59:48 AM

I like that they are actually using the test server to test out their changes, and are making adjustments based upon stuff that happens on the test server.  I felt like that was the exception, rather than the rule in WoW.

I also like that they are trying to pace the changes.  Rogues are complaining of low damage output, and they have stated that they are reviewing that, but they will push the mage buffs and warrior nerfs first to see how it all shakes out.  I just appreciate a more thoughtful evolution rather than knee-jerk nerfs/buff cycle.  I understand that it probably feels like it's taking forever for those specs that are under-performing.
Nebu
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Reply #114 on: April 01, 2011, 10:02:30 AM

I finally ran my first dungeon last night with a few f13 folks.  I now understand why Draegan enjoys this game so much.  With a fun group of people to play with, the experience is very different from the solo grind to 50.  I was pleasantly surprised by the boss encounters and REALLY enjoyed some of the humor added to the dungeons/instances.  It has been a long time since I've laughed as hard in a game as I did last night.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Draegan
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Reply #115 on: April 01, 2011, 11:23:53 AM

I like that they are actually using the test server to test out their changes, and are making adjustments based upon stuff that happens on the test server.  I felt like that was the exception, rather than the rule in WoW.

I also like that they are trying to pace the changes.  Rogues are complaining of low damage output, and they have stated that they are reviewing that, but they will push the mage buffs and warrior nerfs first to see how it all shakes out.  I just appreciate a more thoughtful evolution rather than knee-jerk nerfs/buff cycle.  I understand that it probably feels like it's taking forever for those specs that are under-performing.

Trust me when I say that the Rogue dev (or team) has their head in the sand.  It's been like this for a long time.
Draegan
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Reply #116 on: April 01, 2011, 11:25:48 AM

I finally ran my first dungeon last night with a few f13 folks.  I now understand why Draegan enjoys this game so much.  With a fun group of people to play with, the experience is very different from the solo grind to 50.  I was pleasantly surprised by the boss encounters and REALLY enjoyed some of the humor added to the dungeons/instances.  It has been a long time since I've laughed as hard in a game as I did last night.

Glad you found an enjoyable experience.  These games suck if you just play them solo the majority of the time.  Realm of the Fae's Atrophinius is pretty amusing. :)
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #117 on: April 01, 2011, 11:36:45 AM

Well after having tried my first expert dungeon I have to say while the normal dungeons are fun, the experts are....not so much. They seem to be just as long and hard as wow's current crop of heroics and the amount of trash is pretty vile such that unless you already over gear it, even with a competent group you're gonna be there 2+ hours.

edit: since this isnt the grip thread I'll add that the dungeons are actually nice to look at.

~a horrific, dark simulacrum that glares balefully at us, with evil intent.
Threash
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Reply #118 on: April 01, 2011, 12:07:08 PM

Maybe they are as long and hard as wow dungeons are NOW, but i never experienced the failure rate i had on heroics when cata launched.  In fact i haven't been in a single expert dungeon group that out right failed in the end to finish the dungeon, while in wow i had about a 40-50% failure rate doing random dungeons.  There are short cuts in most dungeons that allow you to skip large swaths of trash mobs, whether this is intended or not i do not know or care.

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Luda
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Reply #119 on: April 01, 2011, 12:20:47 PM

Nebu I'm glad you came last night!  It was fun  awesome, for real

See you later rabbit

Modern Angel
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Reply #120 on: April 01, 2011, 05:47:59 PM

There is an awful lot of trash, though, and Trion's taken the tack that tripling hit points on them and calling it a day is basically a sound policy. That doesn't really make it hard, just long.
Draegan
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Reply #121 on: April 02, 2011, 07:20:09 PM

If you hate trash NEVER do expert DSM.  It has my favorite boss encounters, and it's generally a fun dungeon.  But the amount of trash is horrific.
Zetor
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WWW
Reply #122 on: April 02, 2011, 11:45:56 PM

I just did expert KB yesterday (my first expert) and some of the trash was OTT in there as well. I have *no* idea why they had to put three of those 'omfg this takes forever' death idols that spawn worms. One of them is a cool novelty (that takes forever), second one is  Ohhhhh, I see., third one is  ACK!...

Draegan
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Reply #123 on: April 05, 2011, 08:32:34 AM

Those death idols are awwwwful.
Threash
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Reply #124 on: April 05, 2011, 09:38:13 AM

Yeah, that's the only thing that made me go "another? really? fuck you trion".

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ShenMolo
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Reply #125 on: April 06, 2011, 10:38:24 AM

Been PuG'n experts for a week now, it's very doable. Because there is no Dungeon Finder yet, you get to know people and find yourself grouping with /friends or friends of friends. I have only run into a couple of real idiots on my server during expert pugs, and as they were neither tank or main healer we were able to drag them along.
Xanthippe
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Reply #126 on: April 07, 2011, 09:46:37 AM

I like that they are actually using the test server to test out their changes, and are making adjustments based upon stuff that happens on the test server.  I felt like that was the exception, rather than the rule in WoW.

I also like that they are trying to pace the changes.  Rogues are complaining of low damage output, and they have stated that they are reviewing that, but they will push the mage buffs and warrior nerfs first to see how it all shakes out.  I just appreciate a more thoughtful evolution rather than knee-jerk nerfs/buff cycle.  I understand that it probably feels like it's taking forever for those specs that are under-performing.

Trust me when I say that the Rogue dev (or team) has their head in the sand.  It's been like this for a long time.

My 50 is a rogue. 

I recently made a mage (necro/warlock/chloro for leveling), and bought 3 souls quickly, and played in Black Garden as a pyro.  Unlike my experiences as a rogue, I was topping the charts in damage and kills, and we won almost all of the games I was in.  It was silly, the amount of damage I was doing.  But what a fun changeup.

I have heard rumors that one of Trion's devs is the Mythic dev who was responsible for bright wizards.  Whether this is true or not, it apparently is commonly believed.

I love my rogue for solo pve/exploring/farming.  Ranger/bard gives me speed, tracking for humans and animals, and I just love how it plays.  I can switch to assassin if I need to sneak out of a place.  But I haven't found either ranger, bard or assassin particularly fun in warfronts - utility and support are great for Codex and Whitefall Steppes, ok for Port Scion, but I can't find my niche for Black Garden - and I feel pretty underpowered going against anyone except another rogue 1x1 (exception: assassin vs. single mage where I can pick the time to attack). 

Pyro being ridiculously OP is a fun alt until they fix it.
Threash
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Reply #127 on: April 07, 2011, 10:32:29 AM

Well they didn't take that long to slap warriors down to balance.  I still feel powerful, just not facerolly op anymore.

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Jherad
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Reply #128 on: April 07, 2011, 02:13:30 PM

I recently made a mage (necro/warlock/chloro for leveling), and bought 3 souls quickly, and played in Black Garden as a pyro.  Unlike my experiences as a rogue, I was topping the charts in damage and kills, and we won almost all of the games I was in.  It was silly, the amount of damage I was doing.  But what a fun changeup.

I take it you were playing in the bottom tiers? (10-19, 20-29)

The damage increase for mages was primarily weighted at the lower levels, so a low level pyro saw something like a 50% boost - when they didn't particularly need much help in warfronts at that level anyway, due to a reasonably high time-to-kill for most classes. I can well believe this makes them insane in the first tier or two.

The damage increase is much more slight at 50 (maybe 10% for my pyro? I think Nerf mentioned that he didn't notice an increase at all with Necro). The Ground of Strength diminishing returns was also fixed recently making it a mixed blessing in PvP as you lose control of your stun CCs. Pyros got a bit burstier with the removal of the GCD on Inferno, but at the top end, overall dps isn't much higher - I'm pretty sure Necrolocks are still king of the mages.
Nerf
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Reply #129 on: April 08, 2011, 02:03:08 AM

I saw a 4-6% increase on devouring shadows when the patch hit, I was ~46-48 and running lock/chloro for lolaoe grindage at the time.

Mage forum parses were showing a sub-10% increase after the patch, and some of it could have been due to individual spell tweaks, or just pure margin of error.  Doing nothing but sitting there spamming the same macro button for 5 minutes I'll see variations of 10-40dps between parses @ 600ish dps.

I've got some more testing to do on a few things, but mother and sister in law are visiting for the weekend, just arrived tonight, so rift time for us only happens if we're lucky and they sleep in til 1 like usual.  When I've got the time, I'll be testing parses for:

a slightly different archon build, going 51archon/5pyro/10domi for the 20% increased cast speed on fire spells to bring volcanic barrage and surging flare down to GCD from 1.7-1.8s, which nets a free PS+BP cast every 5-6 vb/sf's @1k-1500 each.

How much SP/crit actually affect damage.  From my shitty napkin math, crit just isn't all that helpful until you're cranking out well over 1k dps sustained.

Crit = +50% damage
@ 500 dps, 100% crit =+250dps
26 spell crit = 1% crit = 2.5dps

Now, I know it's a whole lot more complex than that, because your 500dps includes some crit already, but at the very base of it, this is a best-case scenario for damage gain.  It just doesn't seem worth it - for a class that doesn't have %crit damage modifiers, if you were somehow able to get enough spell crit to reach 100% crit chance, if you are currently parsing 500dps, the most you could ever get is a 250dps increase.

I need to get ahold of some golem cores, and pure +spellcrit augs or spellcrit+dex/str/end if they exist, and then craft up 3 sets of gear - one using +sp augs, one using +spellcrit augs, and one with no augs, and then test it with a 0/0/0 build and neural prod, void bolt, pillaging stone, whatever.  I want to see what kind of gains the various stats give all on their own, without being modified by the various builds.
Draegan
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Reply #130 on: April 08, 2011, 12:33:52 PM

Well they didn't take that long to slap warriors down to balance.  I still feel powerful, just not facerolly op anymore.

The last patch actually buffed warriors in PVE settings.
Threash
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Reply #131 on: April 08, 2011, 12:54:51 PM

Today's? how so?

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Draegan
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Reply #132 on: April 08, 2011, 02:12:15 PM

Threash
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Reply #133 on: April 08, 2011, 02:35:41 PM

Uh, no i've lost about 250 dps since before the patch.

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squirrel
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Reply #134 on: April 08, 2011, 05:07:21 PM

Saying "Warriors got nerfed/buffed" or "Mages are OP" is too generic in Rift really. I think the game's got some real balance issues - but w/e I'm not a hardcore player so I'll play my rogue and then make a mage and just enjoy them. But yeah, Warriors didn't get nerfed or buffed - some souls did.

That said, as much as I LOVE the soul system for it's flexibility and variety it's going to be worse than DAoC for balancing - I suspect the pendulum will swing many many cycles before they settle into a groove. Hell look at how long it took WoW to get a modicum of both PvE and PvP balance across what, 9 classes?

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Count Nerfedalot
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Reply #135 on: April 08, 2011, 05:18:08 PM

Well they didn't take that long to slap warriors down to balance.  I still feel powerful, just not facerolly op anymore.

The last patch actually buffed warriors in PVE settings.

Do what? My Reaver/Pally took a dramatic hit in both dps and self-healing.  Where, pray, did you find some buffing?

On that topic, I think the nerfing was sadly inept and poorly aimed, even if it was needed in some form.  I went from being able to wade through wave after wave of 3-5 equal cons pretty much indefinitely to losing about 20% health each wave, unless I use all possible consumables to keep up, in which case I can still keep going indefinitely until I run out of consumables.  And now I die even faster to a single even con elite, nevermind a group of 3-5 of them.  So what's changed?  Not much except for a bit more consumable usage.  My wife (cleric) is happier since now she says she feels "needed" in fights, but she always was in fights against elites, and still really isn't in fights against normals unless I'm stupid and stand in the train tracks.

So they pissed off warriors without fixing the real problem of healers feeling unneeded in non-elite fights, and exacerbated the problem of elites being badass out of all proportion to their level/reward.  A tank being curb-stomped by a single mob 5 levels lower in 15 seconds (30 with lay hands and potions) is just stupid, even if it is elite or heroic or the dev's special snowflake or whatever the hell they call it.



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Count Nerfedalot
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Reply #136 on: April 08, 2011, 05:26:25 PM

Saying "Warriors got nerfed/buffed" or "Mages are OP" is too generic in Rift really. I think the game's got some real balance issues - but w/e I'm not a hardcore player so I'll play my rogue and then make a mage and just enjoy them. But yeah, Warriors didn't get nerfed or buffed - some souls did.

That said, as much as I LOVE the soul system for it's flexibility and variety it's going to be worse than DAoC for balancing - I suspect the pendulum will swing many many cycles before they settle into a groove. Hell look at how long it took WoW to get a modicum of both PvE and PvP balance across what, 9 classes?

Yeah, well, if they emasculate PvE for the sake of balancing PvP like DAoC did, then they can kiss my subscription goodbye.  Keep them separate, and balance them separate, or live with the remnants who are willing to sacrifice (or omit entirely) fun PvE in the name of trying to achieve the largely unachievable dream of balanced PvP.  The only truly balanced PvP would be to make everyone the same class of the same level with the same gear.  Anything else is going to be unbalanced in one way or another.  So DON'T break PvE trying to fix PvP!

Yes, I know I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
squirrel
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Reply #137 on: April 08, 2011, 06:00:43 PM

I agree in general - although in DAoC my stance was fuck PvE and here it's the opposite. Time will tell, they might get it right or they might fuck it up. As a rogue main I don't have much concern and we're apparently the worst calling of all (there are issues mind you, I just think the QQ is overblown).

As to your specific question - Paragons got some very nice changes in 1.1 and Beastmaster is still, well, beastly. As someone who leveled as a bard from 10 - 39 I feel for your reaver, but that soul wasn't alone and at least Warriors got buffs in other areas. Rogues got nerfs to Sab and bard and got...well that's all. No biggie the games only 2 months old.

Speaking of marketing, we're out of milk.
March
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Reply #138 on: April 09, 2011, 07:55:11 AM

Speaking of DAoC... they get a "what went right" for re-using the theme song.  I think Rift tied it to rifts, but I get little shivers when I hear the DAoC horns sound off: Daaa...da da dum...Daaaaaaaa...DUM.

And yes, PvP will ruin this game.  While the devs might talk a good game about being ok with unbalanced specs, they really mean ok with unbalanced specs when employed against their silent minions of computer generated fodder.  they've shown no such willingness to tell the carbon fodder to L2Spec.
Draegan
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Reply #139 on: April 11, 2011, 10:20:52 AM

Uh, no i've lost about 250 dps since before the patch.

Then you need to adjust something because our warriors didn't miss a step, they actually gained dps.
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