NCSoft Reports Quarterly Results; CoH Subscribers Down

[jpark]

Or to put it less succintly, I've written about this subject before.

Link not working - might want to check that.

[HaemishM]

Pwned by stupidity.

I've written on this subject before, motherfucker, but apparently forget BBCode everyonce in a while.

[Alkiera]

Pwned by stupidity.

I've written on this subject before, motherfucker, but apparently forget BBCode everyonce in a while.

That's okay, some of the BBCode is different here than on phpBB.  Discovered that earlier when posting that stuff in the EQ2 forum.

Alkiera

[Jeff Kelly]

The original poster was exactly correct in talking about how people settle (rightly or wrongly) on a single build when given a skill system. I don't mind it, since people actually limit themselves, and you have less to prepare for in pvp, most people will use the same tricks. A more modern but still dated example would be the defense template stackers of SWG.

Well it becomes a problem when all those leet endgame-catasses only look for certain uber-builds for raids or instances. Take World of Warcraft for example. If you plan to do the high-level instances like upper blackrock spire, molten core or stratholme you better be a warrior, healer or mage with the respective talent builds or you will have a hard time finding a group. Play a hunter? Nobody will invite you. Druid? Well why should one choose a druid if we could have a warrior and priest instead etc. If you are fortunate enough to have friends who play or are a member of a very good guild you will likely not encounter the problem but for everyone else it is like "do it like us or you are left out" more often than not. So WoW allows for eight different character templates with several talent builds, content however is largely tuned to the standard tank, healer, mage template and this is my main gripe with WoW at the moment.

This also leads to ridiculous tactics in high-level raids. Take Onyxia for example. Standard tactics involve one main tank who has to hold aggro and an insane amount of priests and mages with the occasional warrior or paladin as off-tank for the whelps. This strategy is so mindboggingly stupid but still works rather well because the designers couldn't imagine an encounter involving a different playstyle than just simply getting hit by the boss and healed by dozens of priests while mages spam fireballs.

If you design a game around a certain playstyle don't be surprised when players actually design their characters to cater for that playstyle the rest is just peer pressure. I am glad that CoH tries to do it somewhat differently (hey I am on topic) because it certainly seems like every other mmorpg out there is still too stuck in the d&d mindset.

Jeff

[jpark]

This also leads to ridiculous tactics in high-level raids. Take Onyxia for example. Standard tactics involve one main tank who has to hold aggro and an insane amount of priests and mages with the occasional warrior or paladin as off-tank for the whelps. This strategy is so mindboggingly stupid but still works rather well because the designers couldn't imagine an encounter involving a different playstyle than just simply getting hit by the boss and healed by dozens of priests while mages spam fireballs.
Jeff

That answers a question I had about WoW - in reference to CoH you might be surprised though.  In the respec (instance) encounter I did around a reactor core - the strategy was different.  We had to defend against hordes to protect an object.  A number of different grouping solutions were possible for this combat as you might imagine - since it is zerg based and an object had to be protected (we used a lot of controllers (enchanters) and a couple of tanks - no dedicated healers).  Further the core could be repaired (healed) but that required someone running to the  other room to get a temporary power to do the repairing / healing of the core.  That meant timing who was going to "leave" the combat and when lol.

It also required spatial awareness.  There were not enough players to cover every quandrant and intercept.  We each had roaming patterns and called out when incoming were detected.

A whole new dynamic imo.

[Big Gulp]

(we used a lot of controllers (enchanters) and a couple of tanks - no dedicated healers).  Further the core could be repaired (healed) but that required someone running to the  other room to get a temporary power to do the repairing / healing of the core.

A whole new dynamic imo.

To speak further of the versatility, I've done the respec without a single controller, we had a kinetic defender and a darkness defender doing the lion's share of that work.  Came through smelling like a rose with only one death in the team.

[MaceVanHoffen]

To speak further of the versatility ...

Yep, the respec trial is an amazing example of something CoH has done right, and done differently than other MMO's.  Even arch-villains (the closest thing CoH has to ubermobs or raid-level mobs) vary widely in the tactics needed to beat them.  In fact, I would go so far as to make this somewhat elitist assertion:  the players complaining about the highend game are the players who try to shoehorn the tactics of older MMO's into CoH.

[Sky]

f you plan to do the high-level instances like upper blackrock spire, molten core or stratholme you better be a warrior, healer or mage with the respective talent builds or you will have a hard time finding a group.

Well, I despise this kind of elitist bullshit, so I don't exactly seek it out. Can't do super instance and get the ring of badassitude unles I deal with some uptight dickwads who take the game way too seriously? Fine by me, so long as the rest of the game is still fun. If that's not the case, well, that's not a big deal either, plenty of games out there to play without dealing with the kind of douchebaggery spawned by the herd mentality that seeks only uber templates or classes that really bloomed with EQ and the unholy trinity. The kind of encounters built for people like that aren't things I enjoy anyway, they tend to remove a lot of the fun. Read an uberguild's raid rules sometime, I want no part of that insanity.

But on the other hand, if you can't find a group, it's pretty easy. Form a group yourself.

I'd say people who can't do high-level instances with 'undesirable' classes are shitty players who need the easy classes to do things.

[MaceVanHoffen]

... uber templates or classes that really bloomed with EQ and the unholy trinity. The kind of encounters built for people like that aren't things I enjoy anyway, they tend to remove a lot of the fun. Read an uberguild's raid rules sometime, I want no part of that insanity.

...

I'd say people who can't do high-level instances with 'undesirable' classes are shitty players who need the easy classes to do things.

You, sir, are a freaking genius.  The whole unholy trinity, uberguild, cockblocking crap of EQ is exactly why I will never play another game that has the involvement of Brad "but people like to be victims" McQuaid.  I played a bard to 60 in my catass days.  Never, ever again will I go through that.

[WindupAtheist]

So nobody needs to even attempt a good housing system, or mounts and vehicles, or worthwhile crafting, or gameplay that breaks the grind/level/group paradigm.  They just have to make encounters work for more than one type of group, and add spandex.

[Big Gulp]

So nobody needs to even attempt a good housing system, or mounts and vehicles, or worthwhile crafting, or gameplay that breaks the grind/level/group paradigm.  They just have to make encounters work for more than one type of group, and add spandex.

[stray]

Contrary to the disposition of other posters around here, I think you're OK. And I like UO too. But please...

For the most part, you're not going to define the fun of a game by what is or what isn't on the checklist, relative to an entirely different game. Play it and judge it by it's own merits or shut the fuck up already.

[MaceVanHoffen]

So nobody needs to even attempt a good housing system, or mounts and vehicles, or worthwhile crafting, or gameplay that breaks the grind/level/group paradigm.  They just have to make encounters work for more than one type of group, and add spandex.

Yes.  Precisely.

[ahoythematey]

So nobody needs to even attempt a good housing system, or mounts and vehicles, or worthwhile crafting, or gameplay that breaks the grind/level/group paradigm.  They just have to make encounters work for more than one type of group, and add spandex.

Every point but that last has been accomplished in other games already, and that last one is most likely impossible for now.

[Mesozoic]

Windup is fixating on the game concepts and things that he could find in a design doc.  But games are not bullet-point lists of features.  Implementation is huge.  I wasn't interested in CoH at all when it was announced, or in beta, or even when it was released.  Only after it came out, and F13ers started raving, did I even think about it.  When I decided that I liked it, I based that call on the way the game played, not from the presence or absence of a feature.

Without exception, the positive reaction from the crowd was based on the intangibles of the game's feel.  The speed of combat, the enjoyment of character creation, the semi-importance of enhancements (loot), the breadth of character development and builds, the ease of soloing, the time investment per mission or level, the interaction of different archetypes, the ability to interact regardless of level (sidekicking), etc.  If you're not even willing to try it, then you're not going to "get it."  These parameters cannot be measured in a scientific manner or checked off on a list.

People who think that CoH needs housing or crafting or "mounts" (for crissakes, mounts?!) are the ones wielding the cookie-cutter of MMOG design.   The game doesn't need those things, the backstory doesn't call for them.  Throwing them in for the sake of having them would be, dare I say, unimaginitive.

[schild]

I've been asking for two things since launch, street clothes with appropriate animations (walking around leisurely, etc), and player HQs. Only because I think they are necessary to the Superhero mythos. Not because other MMOGs have them.

[Big Gulp]

I've been asking for two things since launch, street clothes with appropriate animations (walking around leisurely, etc), and player HQs. Only because I think they are necessary to the Superhero mythos. Not because other MMOGs have them.

Well, I doubt it'd ever happen until the Marvel lawsuit is layed to rest, but I want web slinging/grappling hooks, too.  Of course, my wants are unrealistic, and I'm just happy to take whatever updates they provide every 2-3 months.

[Mesozoic]

Technically, street clothes are do-able with the second (or third or fourth) costume slot. 

[eldaec]

CoH are running a 14 day free trial promotion this month btw, you'll be needing a key off of a current subscriber to download the client (current players have all been e-mailed a key to give away). Lots of us here have spare keys, see thread here: http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=2140.0 for people you can bug if you want in.

[eldaec]

I've been asking for two things since launch, street clothes with appropriate animations (walking around leisurely, etc), and player HQs. Only because I think they are necessary to the Superhero mythos. Not because other MMOGs have them.

Well, I doubt it'd ever happen until the Marvel lawsuit is layed to rest, but I want web slinging/grappling hooks, too.  Of course, my wants are unrealistic, and I'm just happy to take whatever updates they provide every 2-3 months.

Statesman has claimed that webs are on his list for future powersets/pools.

Street clothes are in game already (though choices are limited), and you can make your character walk if you really don't like getting around quickly.

SG HQs are coming with CoV.

[Sobelius]

Missing from CoH?

- for God's sake make mission environments something more than just static backdrops -- at the very least let me pick up and throw the crates and boxes and furniture
- when a mission says rescue someone, the person should actually be in danger -- not just cowering in a corner forever. If I don't get rid of the villains, the hostage dies and my standing with citizens and contacts drops.
- when a mission says disarm the bombs or the building will go kaboom, blow it and me up if I fail the mission -- imagine contacts not talking to you until you show you're compentent again (by taking out street trash, for example)
- create missions where I can put together the elements that form clues myself and then figure out where to go next and who to target next -- instead of spoonfeeding me with every single clue and storyline spelled out so completely that I feel like I'm just doing a paint-by-number story
- give me NPCs to care about, protect and defend -- why can't my character have an NPC love-interest of my choosing, or a family member, or friend, who occasionaly gets into trouble?
- give NPCs political game mechanics beyond the concept of faction
- provide other in-game rewards, such as temporarily placing a huge statue of your character in a certain region (until the next hero to accomplish the task comes along).
- even small things could be done -- such as, upon completion of a mission, the game automatically stores a handful of screenshots it took while you were combatting the main villain, giving you a personal 'comic book' of your storyline or the climax of the storyline

Obviously, armchair designing/suggesting is easy; as much as I enjoy CoH though, there are times when I wonder why some things, such as interactive environments (at least for instanced missions) were not implemented. 

[WindupAtheist]

See, I've had those moments where I decide UO is old, so I'll go play something newer.  Years ago it was Asheron's call, and that didn't last a week.  Just recently it was World of Warcraft, and at first I was all like "OMG SHINEY!"  Man, it had real graphics, and a huge world, and QUESTS!  UO has a tiny number of shitty quests, but this had bloody tons of them.  So I killed and leveled and quested and grouped, logging into UO only long enough to give most of my stuff away to newbs.

Then, after a month or so, that started getting old and I started looking for other things to do.  In my old game I might screw around just redesigning my house and looking for furniture all night, or waste time training my pet mongbat to kill things, or some other diversion when I didn't feel like playing the "real" game.  But in WoW I wasn't finding any diversions, and if I didn't do my requisite grinding, everyone was going to outlevel me anyway.

So yeah, gimme a design doc with a feature list that makes me pee my pants, because any faith I might have had in the concept of "killing so cool you won't mind that it's all there is" has long since departed.

[eldaec]

Obviously, armchair designing/suggesting is easy; as much as I enjoy CoH though, there are times when I wonder why some things, such as interactive environments (at least for instanced missions) were not implemented. 

They have started down this line with doors, destructable objects and objects that buff/debuff passers by. What they don't have any of is movable objects, which is a common weakness of MMOGs generally for reasons of bandwidth and server capacity, including an immobile npc that happens to look like a lab table or a sentry gun is obviously going to be easier than tracking a pile of movable objects of the sort you find in HL2.

Raising the standard at least to an environment with switchable states would be nice though. Flip the switch to turn off the broken gas pipe that is spewing fire into that other room, that sort fo thing.

From the way the skill system has been described so far, this might well be the sort of thing they are aiming for in i5. eg. bring a hacker to turn off the security guns, bring an engineer to shut down the gas pipes, and so on.

[Sobelius]

Raising the standard at least to an environment with switchable states would be nice though. Flip the switch to turn off the broken gas pipe that is spewing fire into that other room, that sort fo thing.

Yep -- that would be a great start. Trying not to sound like a GW fanboi, but my experiences in the beta preview PvE content showed that their instanced missions do have things like this -- pick up the seeds to create the vine bridges you need to cross chasms -- collect the parts for a catapult you need to assemble to take out large numbers of foes, etc.

I know that tracking movable objects in the world at large is daunting, but I thought that the beauty of instanced missions was the ability to give the players specific closed environments which then limited the number of updates -- plus, the states don't have to persist beyond the instance, so no need to keep remembering the last state *unless* you tie such a state to a character or group of characters and allow their instanced mission to evolve and change as they affect it.

There was a game in development for a while, Lost Continents (think Indiana Jones-style world and missions), which hoped to provide just such persistent-memory instances, basically allowing you to craft your story as you accomplished missions, but then also having to live with the consequences of how you played the mission -- how you treated the natives, which villains you defeated, etc. would be remembered. I think they were a little too early in the tech/experience timeline to pull it off, and my guess is their investors were too nervous to wait for a longer-term payoff (or else their pockets just weren't deep enough).

[Alkiera]

The Auto Assault devs mentioned having something like persistant instance states in the interview on the front page here.  Where you'd be asked to go someplace in an instance, and then do go there again later, and when you arrive the 2nd time, it'd be in a similar state to the way you left it.

It sounds pretty neat, I admit.

Alkiera

[dEOS]

Missing from CoH?
- for God's sake make mission environments something more than just static backdrops -- at the very least let me pick up and throw the crates and boxes and furniture

You want something that doesn't even exist in other MMORPGs. Let's be realistic. That's probably because there are some serious technical issues behind doing this.

- when a mission says rescue someone, the person should actually be in danger -- not just cowering in a corner forever. If I don't get rid of the villains, the hostage dies and my standing with citizens and contacts drops.

Timed missio + The game is rated for a certain audience. You don't kill people, you arrest them. There are kids playing.

- when a mission says disarm the bombs or the building will go kaboom, blow it and me up if I fail the mission -- imagine contacts not talking to you until you show you're compentent again (by taking out street trash, for example)

Respec trial where you have to protect a nuclear core from minions... if you fail, nuclear core explodes... white  flash... But no building destroyed. I guess that if every failed missions caused building destructions, they would be running out of buildings.

- create missions where I can put together the elements that form clues myself and then figure out where to go next and who to target next -- instead of spoonfeeding me with every single clue and storyline spelled out so completely that I feel like I'm just doing a paint-by-number story

You mean missions where you have to read the spoiler while doing it ??
You are talking about experienced MMORPG players who like to run around for hours searching for clues (AC1 is your game if that's what you like)... Most people play CoH to have fun. Tedious search for solutions is not fun... it's called work IRL.

- give me NPCs to care about, protect and defend -- why can't my character have an NPC love-interest of my choosing, or a family member, or friend, who occasionaly gets into trouble?

Related to player affected environment. The implications are enormous.

- give NPCs political game mechanics beyond the concept of faction

Err, sure. They had that during Winter event. Large groups of mobs from different factions beating on each other in the streets. It was cool. It was farmed. It got newbies killed. It was removed.

- provide other in-game rewards, such as temporarily placing a huge statue of your character in a certain region (until the next hero to accomplish the task comes along).

Player affecting environment once again. No MMO game provides such mechanism.

- even small things could be done -- such as, upon completion of a mission, the game automatically stores a handful of screenshots it took while you were combatting the main villain, giving you a personal 'comic book' of your storyline or the climax of the storyline

You can register demos of your gameplay session and replay them at will. I record some of missions just for the sheer pleasure of rewatching how great those moments are.

Obviously, armchair designing/suggesting is easy; as much as I enjoy CoH though, there are times when I wonder why some things, such as interactive environments (at least for instanced missions) were not implemented. 

My take is that the CoH designers are moving in that direction in a not so distant future. They have made amazing progress in the areas they design. The latest zone added named Striga Isle is really few steps above every other zones in the variety if proposes, the different interaction between mobs, etc... They have plans to revamp every previously existing zone in some similar manners. They are aware that some of them are pretty much redundant and give the impression that the CoH world map is only a city ghetto with buildings of varying sizes.

What others fail to mention regarding something that CoH proposes that others do not is.... large groups of mobs encounters. A group of heroes can be fighting 20+ mobs at once with the proper tactics. This weekend we fought in the respec trial using doorways as a bottleneck to control the flow of mobs. There is true collision checking in CoH between mobs & their environment unlike WoW for example where pretty much everything is ethereal to other moving objects.

Moreover CoH has really meaningful knockbacks. Combat uses a lot more the 3D physical space than any other game.

Finally CoH provides very diverse combinations of powers that sure could be rationalized to healer/tank/damage dealer/mezzer/buffer but are in reality so different that two healers could play in a very different manner. And in that regard CoH is providing much more variety than any other MMORPGs I have played. In comparison, WoW is very bland with its streamlined character progression.

I suggest you take a look at one of the Hero Planner tools (ie : http://joechott.com/coh/) and make an idea of the skills that are proposed. And the effect announced are really meaningful unlike other games. The benefits you provide to a group when "slowing" mobs is really tangible and doesn't last 10s. That's why CoH provide other means to fight big mobs other than "one tank and all healers for the rest".

CoH is pushing the envelope on fun combat and does so by proving that every group is not mandatorily composed of healer+tank+damage dealer. No body dies if mobs can't attack you. Get 3 controllers that will hold everything and you don't need any healing.

Plus sidekicking rulez joo!

d

[dEOS]

[multi post is the devil]

[Sky]

Get 3 controllers that will hold everything and you don't need any healing.

I'm not even quite yet at WoW's 'endgame' (designed by ubertards from EQ, of course), but the value of this shines through. I'll be subscribed to CoH years from now, when WoW is a distant memory. CoH was not designed as a "mmorpg" as we've come to know them (EQ, apparently).

See, I'm a hunter aka leper in WoW. I miss CoH where we could just throw a variety of ATs in and use good tactics to overcome the day...the engine allows for that, as you point out. The EQ-style games do not.

[dEOS]

See, I'm a hunter aka leper in WoW. I miss CoH where we could just throw a variety of ATs in and use good tactics to overcome the day...the engine allows for that, as you point out. The EQ-style games do not.

I am also playing a Hunter. I just read on the US boards how much non-loving the hunters get and I am disappointed. We'll see how fast they give us some loving.

d

[Sky]

Don't read those boards, filled with negativity and ignorance. Play what's fun and ignore anyone who tells you different, imo. I love playing my hunter. I'm currently taking a break to play an alt, but I'm not taking a break from the hunter. I'm taking a break from the higher level attitudes toward them. People broken and whatnot.

[dEOS]

Coming from CoH I found all WoW classes uninteresting to play except for the Hunter and its relationship (love/hate) with his pet. I had played a priest and a warrior in beta and I found those classes lacking gameplay wise... in the sense that it was just stand there and click certain skills. Not really much thinking about placement, environment and other subtleties.

It's the ex-quakeworld player in me. I have to use my twitch skills. Cycle like mad through targets. Throw debuffs the minute they come back up after the anchor is dead. Run at SS. Jump super high. Use knockbacks with intelligent placement to gather mobs around the debuffing anchors. Constantly monitor the health bars of my teammates and run to where they are and throw an aura heal.

So I am playing a Hunter. Not even close to fast pace of CoH but the pet keeps my mind occupied :)

d

[Monika T'Sarn]

Well it becomes a problem when all those leet endgame-catasses only look for certain uber-builds for raids or instances. Take World of Warcraft for example. If you plan to do the high-level instances like upper blackrock spire, molten core or stratholme you better be a warrior, healer or mage with the respective talent builds or you will have a hard time finding a group. Play a hunter? Nobody will invite you. Druid? Well why should one choose a druid if we could have a warrior and priest instead etc. If you are fortunate enough to have friends who play or are a member of a very good guild you will likely not encounter the problem but for everyone else it is like "do it like us or you are left out" more often than not. So WoW allows for eight different character templates with several talent builds, content however is largely tuned to the standard tank, healer, mage template and this is my main gripe with WoW at the moment.

And its simply not true. You must be playing a different game then I am - maybe you're alliance ?
Druids are very much wanted in all raids, for their buffs, heals, and in ubrs, for their unique ability to sleep dragonkin. We allways want a rogue or two for damage and cc, some mages for ae and cc, a warlock for ae, cc summons and soulstones , shamans for healing, windfury and wipe recovery- basically the normal raid I go on has one of every class. When numbers were still reasonable I've never seen a hunter denied a raid. And as priest I was NEVER asked about my spec. It wasn't a problem when I was full shadow, and my current weird tri-spec works to.

This also leads to ridiculous tactics in high-level raids. Take Onyxia for example. Standard tactics involve one main tank who has to hold aggro and an insane amount of priests and mages with the occasional warrior or paladin as off-tank for the whelps. This strategy is so mindboggingly stupid but still works rather well because the designers couldn't imagine an encounter involving a different playstyle than just simply getting hit by the boss and healed by dozens of priests while mages spam fireballs.

Onyxia is weird because of the AE, so doing melee damage to her simply is counterproductive because you need to much healing.  Not sure how you would make a single mob pull harder though without this ae. Would have to be some really new design that consider her size, maybe consider her several mobs with different aggro lists targeting dfferent tanks perhaps ?
Note that onyxia is the perfect place for a hunter - ability to do ranged damage, and can feign death to avoid aggro.

Hunters - at least two - are absoiutely required for molten core as well - its not possbile at all to advance past the first boss without them.

[Jeff Kelly]

And its simply not true. You must be playing a different game then I am - maybe you're alliance ?

There is no such thing as true or not true when talking about experience. In my experience it has been that way. I have been playing Wow since the EU Final Beta (Three Months now) and have seen the aforementioned behavior nearly every day. Hell while playing my gnomish rogue yesterday I was actually turned down twice because they were only looking for the standard setup (plus pally).

I do agree however that things are better when playing horde. Two times already I have contemplated canning my rogue and starting over on the horde side mainly for two reasons:

1. There are far less people playing. On certain days you cannot walk into Ironforge because it lags so much due to the shitload of people there.

2. Most horde players I knew actually played far better and were less stupid than their alliance counterparts

And if I see another Nightelf rogue or hunter I will go on a killing spree.

Druids are very much wanted in all raids, for their buffs, heals, and in ubrs, for their unique ability to sleep dragonkin. We allways want a rogue or two for damage and cc, some mages for ae and cc, a warlock for ae, cc summons and soulstones , shamans for healing, windfury and wipe recovery- basically the normal raid I go on has one of every class. When numbers were still reasonable I've never seen a hunter denied a raid. And as priest I was NEVER asked about my spec. It wasn't a problem when I was full shadow, and my current weird tri-spec works to.

Then you are a very fortunate player. Two weeks ago a german Guild leader (and very experienced raid leader) explained to me that he will not take rogues, warlocks or hunters on a raid because they are of less use due to their "hybridness" than a warrior, mage or priest. He especially described paladins as "useles".

And he not only told me so in private but postet his "suggestions" on a german message board. Well he might just be stupid but people will listen to him because he has such notoriety and his tactics even work because his guild has slain Onyxia. Hard to argue against that.

Onyxia is weird because of the AE, so doing melee damage to her simply is counterproductive because you need to much healing.  Not sure how you would make a single mob pull harder though without this ae. Would have to be some really new design that consider her size, maybe consider her several mobs with different aggro lists targeting dfferent tanks perhaps ?
Note that onyxia is the perfect place for a hunter - ability to do ranged damage, and can feign death to avoid aggro.

Hunters - at least two - are absoiutely required for molten core as well - its not possbile at all to advance past the first boss without them.

If you design eight different character classes than it is your obligation to design group/raid content so that every one of those character classes can contribute to it. All I see at the moment is hunters, rogues and warlocks whining on message boards that nobody invites them to instances anymore. And in my personal experience it is that way.

Jeff

[Monika T'Sarn]

Those germans are weird ! Good that they have been prevented from playing on our US servers ! 

I think the design of the classes is quite good in WoW - all of them have a usefull role.
The hunter is somewhat less used because he was added so late in beta - all the tactics developed and used during that time simply could not include him.
Rogues are simply the best damage dealer, I dont see how you would take more warriors instead for a raid ? Of course, its a problem that there are to many of them - the best class design cant deal with a badly balanced player class selection.
Warlocks whining I don't get at all, there's so few high level warlocks around I'm allways happy to team with one.

I only see a potential problem in lower-level instances like zul, temple, maraudon or brd that are traditionally never raided - a 5 person groups that has to select from 8 classes is quite restricted in choices. But once you go into the tradional 10-15 people raid for ubrs, stratholme or scholomance thats history.

[Nija]

I actually went back to CoH after WOW. I forgot my old username/pass so I had to rebuy it.

It's still fun.